Countries where convicted felons CAN'T enter.. Will that help president Trump or hurt him?

Putin

@jack
No mention of Russia? I'll think about keeping him out, if it's what you really want Jackie.

Barnardot

@jack so what does convicted felon have any thing to do with Trump? And what the fu**k extreme point that is totally invalid any way are you trying to put a cross?
Trump was not convicted of a capital or serious crime and he is hardly going to prison for covering up hush money to a hore.

you would have to be a real bad ace half brain to go behind bars.

Delilah6120

Argument Topic: so what does convicted felon

@Barnardot

That Americans are even having a conversation about a president being a convicted felon is beyond normal. So since trump wasn´t convicted of a ¨capital¨ or ¨serious¨ crime? Does character of a president matter to you? Does a president who commits white collar crime matter to you? Does decency in a human being - let alone leader of the free world matter to you? Does lying matter to you? Does cheating matter to you? Does being a traitor matter to you? Does entitlement, greed, narcissism, sexism, misogyny, disrespect of military, racism and ignorance of a president matter to you?  This is beyond normal that trump is even being considered to be our leader. He has turned this country upside down with his trumpism. Anerica is not the same. What the f***k extreme point? THIS is extreme - HE is extreme. And it matters.

jack

Barnardot said:

@jack so what does convicted felon have any thing to do with Trump?

Hello B:

I dunno.  Made it up..  

Du*de.

excon

Factfinder

I prefer trumps extreme character over bidens criminal behavior. It would be nice if we were able to elect the right person for the job instead though.

Factfinder

@Delilah6120

You speak as though Biden is innocent of crimes. Let’s persecute him for two years and see what actual capital offenses he’s committed. You know he has or your ignorant of reality and just think Trump is icky? 

@jack

most those countries you listed would welcome Trump no matter what criminal record he has. Whether they be liberal or conservative governments both have greed in common and both pit populations against one another. 

Barnardot

@Delilah6120 ;So since trump wasn´t convicted of a ¨capital¨ or ¨serious¨ crime? Does character of a president matter to you?

Your making up a hole heap of crap which isnt helpful and means totally nothing. Trump isnt extreme. Your ridiculous argument is extreme. 

You should go take some Valium and stop wasting peoples time by being so stu pid.

Barnardot

@jack ;I dunno.  Made it up..  

Yes thats right. You did made it up and all those countries you listed that Trump cant visit you also made up. Have you ever thought of being real for once and stop making up such a load of made up crap and useless topics?

Barnardot

@Putin ;No mention of Russia? I'll think about keeping him out, if it's what you really want Jackie.

But you know that you want him to visit dont you.

And you cant wait for him to come round to the Kremlin for tea so you can offer him some Novi chok chip cookies.

Delilah6120

Argument Topic: You speak as though Biden is innocent of crimes.

@Factfinder

You speak as though Biden is innocent of crimes. Let’s persecute him for two years and see what actual capital offenses he’s committed. You know he has or your ignorant of reality and just think Trump is icky? 

I am interested in your comments on Biden´s crimes. What crimes has Biden committed? Are you asserting that this is a witch hunt and time was wasted on these offenses? The jury found him guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. Fair trial, fair judge, fair jurors. And no, Biden has not committed crimes. Again, provide proof of these crimes please. Trump was found guilty of falsifying business records to affect the outcome of the election. That is a crime. Merchan clearly stated to his jurors clearly that it must be beyond a reasonable doubt. I believe you may be ignorant of reality. He will be found guilty of other crimes also. I´m not sure of the bizarre hold trump has on his supporters but it´s clearly disturbing and perhaps you should read about false prophets and cult leaders to give you some insight into this.

@jack

most those countries you listed would welcome Trump no matter what criminal record he has. Whether they be liberal or conservative governments both have greed in common and both pit populations against one another. 

So you accept that countries have greed in common and that´s why they would welcome Trump? That you say that so freely is concerning in itself. Honestly, I´m embarrassed for you and your unwavering support for a dangerous and narcissistic fraud. You have been bamboozled and manipulated by a man who claims he can fix everything. He is a fraud and except for a few moral politicians (Cheney, Kinsinger, Romney), he has his immoral republican politicians so afraid that he will ruin their careers that they jumped on the fealty wagon. Disgusting. If you are able, please make sure you watch the debates and set aside your 100% loyalty of Trump that he demands. Listen to what he says carefully and decide fairly if you believe he actually is qualified for the job of President of the United States - a president that will work for ALL Americans and not just his loyal sycophants.

Delilah6120

Argument Topic: Your making up a hole heap of crap which isnt helpful and means totally nothing. Trump isnt extreme. Your ridiculous argument is extreme.

@Barnardot

Your making up a hole heap of crap which isnt helpful and means totally nothing.

What ¨crap¨ have I made up?

You should go take some Valium and stop wasting peoples time by being so stu pid.

Really?

Factfinder

Delilah6120 said:

@Factfinder

You speak as though Biden is innocent of crimes. Let’s persecute him for two years and see what actual capital offenses he’s committed. You know he has or your ignorant of reality and just think Trump is icky? 

I am interested in your comments on Biden´s crimes. What crimes has Biden committed? Are you asserting that this is a witch hunt and time was wasted on these offenses? The jury found him guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. Fair trial, fair judge, fair jurors. And no, Biden has not committed crimes. Again, provide proof of these crimes please. Trump was found guilty of falsifying business records to affect the outcome of the election. That is a crime. Merchan clearly stated to his jurors clearly that it must be beyond a reasonable doubt. I believe you may be ignorant of reality. He will be found guilty of other crimes also. I´m not sure of the bizarre hold trump has on his supporters but it´s clearly disturbing and perhaps you should read about false prophets and cult leaders to give you some insight into this.

@jack

most those countries you listed would welcome Trump no matter what criminal record he has. Whether they be liberal or conservative governments both have greed in common and both pit populations against one another. 

So you accept that countries have greed in common and that´s why they would welcome Trump? That you say that so freely is concerning in itself. Honestly, I´m embarrassed for you and your unwavering support for a dangerous and narcissistic fraud. You have been bamboozled and manipulated by a man who claims he can fix everything. He is a fraud and except for a few moral politicians (Cheney, Kinsinger, Romney), he has his immoral republican politicians so afraid that he will ruin their careers that they jumped on the fealty wagon. Disgusting. If you are able, please make sure you watch the debates and set aside your 100% loyalty of Trump that he demands. Listen to what he says carefully and decide fairly if you believe he actually is qualified for the job of President of the United States - a president that will work for ALL Americans and not just his loyal sycophants.

I’m asserting nothing. If you’re unaware of the crimes Biden is being investigated for by the House of Representatives, albeit without the support from the Justice Department because as you know the Biden regime only investigates Trump, then you need to educate yourself before we can debate. Biden hasn’t been convicted, yet, but you’re asserting he’s not guilty despite the evidence mounting against him then you need to source your information. Certainly seems you prefer deluded koolaid. Especially if you think governments do not operate on behalf of their interests which always includes financial.

Choosing the lesser of two evils is not “unwavering” support. You can not deny you’d want Trump prosecuted for fondling children in public the way Biden does if trump were to be perverted like Biden is. If you did deny it I wouldn’t believe you as you’ve disclosed your koolaid preference. I know you wouldn’t be happy with saying “ oh it’s just a grandpa thing” but stop doing it cause you knew it wasn’t innocent, if it were Trump doing the fondling.

My koolaid is weak, water basically objective and neutral. What Trump did is a crime true enough but the reality is anyone in the Presidency or owns companies can be found guilty of white collar crimes if scrutinized mercilessly like Trump was and you know it. Biden however has caused deaths with his crimes of treason. You honestly think  Biden didn’t know and benefit from Hunter’s activities in Ukraine with his corrupt company while dad was there in an official capacity? But that  would be okay even if he bragged about it in public, yes? Cause he’s a democrat so that’s different?

Barnardot

@Delilah6120 ;What ¨crap¨ have I made up?

He has turned this country upside down with his trumpism. Anerica is not the same. What the f***k extreme point? THIS is extreme - HE is extreme. And it matters.

That crap. Thats what. I pointed out the point that the point that Jack was pointing out is extreme because he is not going to get banned from all those countries is he?

Then you asked a heap of extreme questions about being a traitor and racism and ignorance and more. Thats why I and any body else is entitled to call what you say as being extreme and being a heap of crap.

Any intelligent observer who doesnt go off his brain or get hormonal will correctly comment that Trumps politics are slightly to the right of middle and that he has a proven history of acheivement and getting things done in politics and nothing he has ever done is extreme. The so called white collar crime is less criminal than getting a speeding ticket. Some one who gets done for speeding has been caught endangering the lifes of other road users. Every president in America has paid hush money and all the Democrats can do to sling mud at Trump is to catch him covering up hush money. Like derr. Do you go advertising to the world that you pay hush money?

MayCaesar

In the jurisdictions I am familiar with, this law applies to private visits. Public officials including presidents typically travel as diplomats, and diplomatic visits are not affected by this law. Diplomatic visits can only be denied in case the individual was found to have committed serious violations of the international law, specifically when it comes to human rights. People like Putin, Khamenei or Kim Jong Un would have a hard time getting permission to land at an airport in Los Angeles or Paris, although, as far as I know, some public officials (typically the president of the hosting country) can extend an invitation despite the general ban.

There is also a difference between law and practice. Australia is not going to deny the US president a visit, pretty much, no matter who that president is, given the political repercussions of the denial.

Delilah6120

@Factfinder

You still have not said what criminal behavior Biden has committed.

Delilah6120

Argument Topic: @MayCaesar @Factfinder @Barnadot

And poof. Just like that my posts are gone.

Where have my comments gone?

MAGAs you outdo yourselves every day with extremism.
I can only say what I´ve been saying for eight years.
I am embarrassed for trump supporters.

Delilah6120

Argument Topic: @MayCaesar

MayCaesar, where are my posts?

Delilah6120

@MayCaesar

Apologies to May. I could not find my posts but I am mistaken and since you seem to be an administrator I thought you might know.

MayCaesar

@Delilah6120

Let me get something across for the N-th time: I am not a "MAGA", and I believe that Trump was one of the 10 worst presidents in the history of the US. Does this sound like an endorsement to you?

Let me get something else across: I do not believe in censorship, and even if I were the administrator (and not @Aarong), I would not touch your comments. I would ban obvious trolls/idiots like Rickey Holtsclaw, and take care to censor comments that violate the US law (even if I disagree with the law itself personally) - but I would never silence anyone over a difference in opinions.

Now, my comment here purely addressed the legal and practical sides of the question. I did not even mention Trump in the comment. So please cool down, take a walk, come back - and then post a level-headed comment addressing the content of mine when replying to it. Does this sound like a fair request?

Delilah6120

@Factfinder

Again, what crimes has Joe Biden committed?

Delilah6120

@Factfinder

What criminal behavior has Biden committed?

Delilah6120

@Barnardot

Trump is banned from many countries.

https://www.newsweek.com/donald-trump-travel-ban-1906686

Delilah6120

@MayCaesar

Let me get something across for the N-th time: I am not a "MAGA", and I believe that Trump was one of the 10 worst presidents in the history of the US. Does this sound like an endorsement to you?

Let me get something else across: I do not believe in censorship, and even if I were the administrator (and not @Aarong), I would not touch your comments. I would ban obvious trolls/idiots like Rickey Holtsclaw, and take care to censor comments that violate the US law (even if I disagree with the law itself personally) - but I would never silence anyone over a difference in opinions.

Now, my comment here purely addressed the legal and practical sides of the question. I did not even mention Trump in the comment. So please cool down, take a walk, come back - and then post a level-headed comment addressing the content of mine when replying to it. Does this sound like a fair request?

I did not call you a MAGA. 

I do not believe in censorship either. But I believe that the reckless dissemination of propaganda and lies on social media sites is frankly concerning and disrespectful of the millions who died for our first amendment rights. Not to mention that the free dissemination of hate speech, lies an propaganda is dangerous. Maga just seems to be giving a middle finger to our free speech rights.  I believe we desperately need real time fact checking that instantly debunks the . There is a fine line between truth and dangerous rhetoric. Been on X lately? Elon Musk, owner of his own platform, abuses it constantly. He is being promised an advisor position to Trump. Not because of money, because of his influence. The very man who claims he´s a free-speech absolutist, not only allows outright lies and propaganda to be disseminated on his platform, but he actually retweets and shares them and shadow bans anyone who disagrees with MAGA. To me, that is bordering criminal behavior for one´s own gain.

Trump (in my opinion) has allowed the absolute worst of humanity to reveal itself for HIS  gain. He´s not intelligent or qualified in any way to be leader of the free world except perhaps in how to make money in the easiest and most unethical ways. HE is the one being used by the republicans. He is merely a conduit to do as they ask of him - as long as they are loyal to him. Should I not worry about womens´ rights to contraception (in place for 50 years) being stripped from women? Should I not be worried that Roe v. Wade has been overturned - yes, 15 states have a total ban on abortion with NO EXCEPTIONS FOR RAPE or INCEST? As I said, I have limited years left, but I don´t want to leave this world knowing that my sons and grandchildren are living under Authoritarianism/Fascism. And should I not worry about the multitude of other progressions that America has made over the decades being stripped from Americans because of quid pro quo politicians?

Not sure of the level-headed comment you´re asking for? I´m sincerely frustrated and sincerely worried about the direction our country is going in. When did this change? The minute Trump was elected. I´ve lived through many presidents as a Democrat. I´ve not supported the many republicans, but I NEVER worried for the freedoms of Americans.

I did not mean to generalize so freely. MAGA, in my opinion, are those that worship trump unconditionally and seem to me to be ignorant and ironically, they unwittingly seem to be voting against their own interests. They have been bamboozled and duped.

MayCaesar

@Delilah6120

I have not been on X. I have far-far better things to do with my time than sit on social media and read other people's tweets. Now that I think about it, I do not think I have visited X or Tiktok a single time in my life. Am I missing on a lot?

That also means that I am not at all affected by the alleged Elon Musk's behavior. Other people who are affected by it choose to be affected by it: nobody forces them to go on X and read anything there. I am not worried about "excesses" of free speech: the whole point of free speech is to allow people to exchange opinions, including persuading each other. If the outcome of the persuasion is not aligned with my values, I may disapprove of it, but from the bird's eye perspective this is exactly what free speech is about. Points of view I disagree with winning people over as a result of open discussion is the biggest win of freedom there can be.

I will add that, in my experience, "dangerous speech" in 100% cases equals "speech I disapprove of". So I am suspicious of the whole idea of "dangerous speech". I do not know what "free speech absolutism" is (it means different things to different people), but I certainly am not afraid of sound waves.

Regarding Trump, you can be worried about anything you want, but you worrying, sorry to say, does not mean anything legally. If the outcome of the democratic process is Trump getting elected, then it is simply democracy at work. When Biden won and you (I presume) celebrated, there was that Trump supporter who shrugged and said, "Okay, I hope we win next time". When that next time comes, you are expected to do the same. "There are two candidates, and if one of them wins, then we are all doomed" is not an expression of respect for democratic norms.

All that said and done, you did not really address my original comment in any way. I am someone who can put my emotions aside (not that I have any when it comes to politics: I find the topic largely uninteresting and uninspiring) when making an argument. If I am frustrated with something, I will go out for a walk or a bicycle ride and shake off the stress. I will not go to public spaces and scream. In this discussion, I think I made some decent observations about the international law with respect to diplomatic visits, and if you do not want to discuss them, then I am not sure what there is to talk about.

You are much older than me. Surely you have a better grip on your emotions and have developed more effective techniques for cooling down and engaging in a calm and rational conversation. Or am I wrong?

Barnardot

@Delilah6120 ;Trump is banned from many countries.

He is not. As usual you are 100% wrong. The link you posted says:

 now a convicted felon, could face significant travel restrictions

If malicious lieing trolls like you wont stop making up outright nonsense they should not be allowed on this site.
Is there no end to your persistent dishonesty?

Barnardot

@MayCaesar @Delilah6120 ;You are much older than me. Surely you have a better grip on your emotions and have developed more effective techniques for cooling down and engaging in a calm and rational conversation. Or am I wrong?

You would think so but since who ever it is does not respond to any warnings or comments about his/her behavior you have to accept that person is a puppet troll like others who have kept posting there crap on this site before. This pest has to go before the inevitable happens. That is it escalates and the site gets ruined by crap spam. How many times have we seen that lately?

Delilah6120

@MayCaesar

I have not been on X. I have far-far better things to do with my time than sit on social media and read other people's tweets. Now that I think about it, I do not think I have visited X or Tiktok a single time in my life. Am I missing on a lot?

No, you are not missing anything EXCEPT perhaps understanding just how ¨free speech¨ can be and just how much abusing our First Amendment rights has become normalized.

That also means that I am not at all affected by the alleged Elon Musk's behavior. Other people who are affected by it choose to be affected by it: nobody forces them to go on X and read anything there. I am not worried about "excesses" of free speech: the whole point of free speech is to allow people to exchange opinions, including persuading each other. If the outcome of the persuasion is not aligned with my values, I may disapprove of it, but from the bird's eye perspective this is exactly what free speech is about. Points of view I disagree with winning people over as a result of open discussion is the biggest win of freedom there can be.

You are not affected by EM´s behavior because you have not been exposed to his behavior. Correct, I choose to be affected by it. Not ¨excesses¨ of free speech - ABUSE of free speech. Isn´t that what our veterans fought for? Our First Amendment rights? The abuse of using his own bully pulpit for his own financial benefit is appalling to me as he uses his ¨free speech absolutist¨ stance as a cover. I am concerned as I´ve witnessed downright hate smears on Americans who merely are doing their jobs like Fauci and Garland. Hate speech is being freely disseminated and freely retweeted by Musk as (I believe) he is promised an advisory position to trump.

I will add that, in my experience, "dangerous speech" in 100% cases equals "speech I disapprove of". So I am suspicious of the whole idea of "dangerous speech". I do not know what "free speech absolutism" is (it means different things to different people), but I certainly am not afraid of sound waves.

Id say dangerous speech is 1) speech that incites violence or glorifying violent acts. Much of this is seen on X with memes of violence. 2) hate speech is the dehumanization of others with derogatory words - much of of this on X when addressing LGBTQ especially. 3) Misinformation and the spread of lies - this can incite panic, fear and hostility. 4) Harassment and bullying is so common on social media it is now more acceptable. 5) The glorification of certain acts of terror or violence - again freely shared and retweeted on X.  And let´s not forget the dangers of Russia and China infiltrating our elections. If you have not visited X then good for you. But it is an eye opening experience and one of the reason I am so concerned for America. The spread of Mis- and disinformation.

Regarding Trump, you can be worried about anything you want, but you worrying, sorry to say, does not mean anything legally. If the outcome of the democratic process is Trump getting elected, then it is simply democracy at work. When Biden won and you (I presume) celebrated, there was that Trump supporter who shrugged and said, "Okay, I hope we win next time". When that next time comes, you are expected to do the same. "There are two candidates, and if one of them wins, then we are all doomed" is not an expression of respect for democratic norms.

That´s the thing. If Trump IS reelected, not only has American spoken, but with how much help from Russia, China, Iran? And if trump wins? Yes, we can say goodbye to democracy May. An expression of respect for norms? Those norms and all decorum all flew out the door when trump was first elected.

All that said and done, you did not really address my original comment in any way. I am someone who can put my emotions aside (not that I have any when it comes to politics: I find the topic largely uninteresting and uninspiring) when making an argument. If I am frustrated with something, I will go out for a walk or a bicycle ride and shake off the stress. I will not go to public spaces and scream. In this discussion, I think I made some decent observations about the international law with respect to diplomatic visits, and if you do not want to discuss them, then I am not sure what there is to talk about.

Wish I could find our politics uninteresting. Perhaps we all need to be more involved? I believe that democracy is fragile and cannot be sustained without citizen participation. I believe change comes from the bottom, not the top. I believe that strongly. I believe it is one of the main reasons America is in trouble now. Apathy of politics. I find myself wondering at what point in my life did we stop talking about politics. When did civics become a big taboo and opinions were brushed under the rug? We used to talk freely in my younger years of presidents, politics. Apathy = complicit in my eyes. I also think that brushing our political views under the rug for decades to avoid discourse has set us up for our current political scene. Now there are just winners and losers like a sporting event.

You are much older than me. Surely you have a better grip on your emotions and have developed more effective techniques for cooling down and engaging in a calm and rational conversation. Or am I wrong?

Yes, it seems I am. As I said, I´ve always been interested in politics and justice and freedom of Americans. I´ve lived through MANY republican presidents whose policies were just too conservative for me, but I never felt unsafe under their leaderships; I felt as if the presidents were decent human beings. Until trump. My radar for indecency is sensitive and he has set mine off. 

As for your not ascribing to social media. Good for you. You´re healthier and better off at least for the short term. For me, I believe though that your stance is frighteningly popular as you may be unaware of the dangers of all this ¨free speech¨. For instance, for the life of me, why would any woman vote for republicans (using trump as their conduit as he demands loyalty from them if he delivers) that have taken our 50 year abortion rights away and are now actively working to take contraception away? This is inconceivable to me and my many older teacher friends. My answer: because nobody is paying attention to what is lurking behind the scenes as we go about our daily lives. Project 2025 is a 900+ page Manifesto on what to expect if trump wins. It has been in the works for at least two years. He´s not even president and they´ve written a book on what his term will be. Do most Americans know this? No. I read that Biden at this point is way ahead of Trump on the elderly vote. People over 65 will be voting overwhelmingly for Biden. Why do you suppose that is? I have my theories.

Delilah6120

@Barnardot

You are correct. Not yet.

Delilah6120

Argument Topic: He is not. As usual you are 100% wrong. The link you posted says:

@Barnardot

Surely Barnardot you exaggerate my influence on this site. My crap spam?
And how do you feel about RickeyHoltsclaw?

Delilah6120

@Factfinder

I am truly interested in your response. What are Bidenś crimes?

Delilah6120

@Factfinder

Again, what is Joe Biden´s criminal behavior?

MayCaesar

@Delilah6120

What is "abuse of free speech"? The term is an oxymoron. It is like saying "abuse of healthy diet". And just like a healthy diet only threatens people who do not have a healthy diet and feel inferior to those who do, free speech only threatens those who themselves do not have much to say. Props to Elon Musk for saying out loud what he and many other people think, despite countless threats of investors to sell his companies' stocks (which have been soaring; props to him again).

In the modern world everyone is affected by virtually every country. Of course things happening in Russia, China and Iran affect Trump's campaign; they also affect Biden's campaign, and Macron's campaign, and everyone else's campaign.

China especially is a funny case. Back in the day Trump threatened to increase tariffs on Chinese imports, and he was called "racist" and "nationalist" for that. 4 weeks ago Biden increased tariffs on a large number of Chinese imports, and I have yet to hear anyone call him "racist" or "nationalist" for that.

Which illustrates my point once again: "dangerous speech" is only the speech that one dislikes. Often it can be the exact same speech, but because it is made by someone you dislike, it becomes "dangerous".

Regardless, as I said, this is not what this thread is about. I would like to discuss what I expressed in my first comment. Claims that Trump is going to destroy democracy if elected (given that he did not do that when he was elected) I find to not be worth commenting on.

Barnardot

@Delilah6120 ;Surely Barnardot you exaggerate my influence on this site. My crap spam?

Surely I and everyone else here who complain about your utter idiocy are not exaggerating. 

You have been told enough and questioning and gaslighting aren’t changing anything.

Delilah6120

@MayCaesar

What is "abuse of free speech"? The term is an oxymoron. It is like saying "abuse of healthy diet". And just like a healthy diet only threatens people who do not have a healthy diet and feel inferior to those who do, free speech only threatens those who themselves do not have much to say. Props to Elon Musk for saying out loud what he and many other people think, despite countless threats of investors to sell his companies' stocks (which have been soaring; props to him again).

Abuse of our First Amendment rights - I thought I said. I believe we are all abusing our 1A rights by pushing the boundaries - by having free reign to express anything without guidelines. Lack of decorum. I disagree with your opinion of Musk. He is abusing his bully pulpit to benefit himself while potentially harming society. If this sounds harmless to you, or if it sounds immoral but legal and it´s okay, then welcome to the new America where morality doesn´t matter.

In the modern world everyone is affected by virtually every country. Of course things happening in Russia, China and Iran affect Trump's campaign; they also affect Biden's campaign, and Macron's campaign, and everyone else's campaign.

China especially is a funny case. Back in the day Trump threatened to increase tariffs on Chinese imports, and he was called "racist" and "nationalist" for that. 4 weeks ago Biden increased tariffs on a large number of Chinese imports, and I have yet to hear anyone call him "racist" or "nationalist" for that.

Biden is not a racist. Trump? 

Which illustrates my point once again: "dangerous speech" is only the speech that one dislikes. Often it can be the exact same speech, but because it is made by someone you dislike, it becomes "dangerous".

You are much younger than me. You obviously have not witnessed America when decorum and decency was important and a deal breaker when electing presidents. You have perhaps not witnessed America without social media. I disagree that dangerous speech is only speech that´s disliked. Before the insurrection Trump repeatedly encouraged his supporters on Twitter to show up for the big protest. He said ¨we´re going to take what they did to us on Nov. 3. We´re going to take it back." And right before the insurrection he praised his supporters for being there to ¨save our democracy¨ and said ¨we´re going to walk down to the Capitol....you have to show strength, and you have to be strong.¨ As president he allowed Guiliani to incite his supporters by saying ¨Let´s do trial by combat¨. What happened after that? And please don´t tell me this was said innocently. Trump´s history suggests otherwise.

Regardless, as I said, this is not what this thread is about. I would like to discuss what I expressed in my first comment. Claims that Trump is going to destroy democracy if elected (given that he did not do that when he was elected) I find to not be worth commenting on.

Trump has already started to destroy democracy by inciting his supporters to criminally stop the peaceful transfer of power. When he reigned in 2016-2020, he had at least some decorum of decent aides. 2025? There is already in place a 1000 page manifesto in place - project 2025. He´s already setting up his cabinet behind the scenes - his ¨foot soldiers¨. He is already ¨interviewing¨ people for positions in his cabinet. Ya know the people that have been promised a position in his cabinet like Musk. The people who are so knee deep in the election stealing lies that there is no turning back.  The people who are so afraid if they turn against trump that he will destroy them.

Delilah6120

@MayCaesar @Factfinder @Barnardot

https://www.politifact.com/article/2021/jan/11/timeline-what-trump-said-jan-6-capitol-riot/

MayCaesar

@Delilah6120

Again, I do not understand what it means to abuse one's right. The idea of "rights" is precisely that there are some actions that one can take without the threat of retaliation by others. If there are "boundaries" to speech that should not be pushed, then we are not talking about a right any more.

I, for one, miss the Internet of the 90-s when anything went: you could say whatever you want wherever you want with no repercussions. People had much thicker skin back then and did not overreact to everything.

Your question on Trump's racism is absolutely unrelated to what I said. The point is that Trump was called racist for the particular comment he made, yet when Biden made the same comment - and proceeded with making it into a policy - nothing happened. This supports my claim on the nature of so-called "dangerous speech".

Lady, I grew up in a country where people older than you kept telling everyone how wonderful life used to be back in the Soviet times. Excuse me if I do not take the whole "back in my day..." stuff seriously. People are prone to nostalgia and sugarcoat their past.

In media-driven societies such as the American and the Russian one everything gets blown out of proportion. Every election cycle we hear the same stuff: "This is the most important election in the history of this country", "If candidate X wins, democracy will die", "Our country is worse off today than it has ever been, and things are going down the drain fast".

I am interested in hard facts, not in people's emotions (that, more often than not, they would do well to keep to themselves).

I find your last paragraph amusing, in that you do not seem to have any concerns for Trump having been denied the ballot in multiple states already - that is not an abolition of democracy - but some "manifesto" certainly is. Does not sound logical.

In any case, you have not really provided any arguments for this particular election signifying the end of democracy. Suppose Trump did start to destroy democracy in 2016-2020. What suggests that he will finish doing so in 2024-2028? Maybe his successor will in 2032-2036? Or maybe in 2088-2092?

For the last time, I will say: this is not the thread for this discussion. Please address my original comment. I am honestly bored with discussing this stuff.

Delilah6120

Argument Topic: Again, I do not understand

@MayCaesar

Unfortunately, and once again, my well though out post was poofed away under guise (we're reviewing it). Do you have any comments as to why my post was shadowbanned? I find it odd that my thoughtful posts are but the crazy rants from Rickey are distributed freely or Bardardot is able to freely name call. What''s up with that? Any insights?

Bogan

The conviction of President Trump on trumped up charges invented entirely from creative legal thinking will have no bearing on his ability as the next elected President of the USA to enter any country.       Many of the countries that Delilah would love to see him banned do a little bit of lawfare against their own political opponents, so they are already well aware of the practice.  The problem for the USA, is that it can never again lecture other countries about using the legal system to confound candidates that those in power do not want elected.       In addition, the kangaroo courts which convicted Trump were so legally biased that his appeals, especially to the US Supreme Court, will without any doubt succeed.     Some of his trials will become as historically famous as those of Richard Dreyfuss or the Scopes Monkey Trial.   Future generaions will marvel at just how corrupt and biased the US legal system had become.   

Here in my own country, Australia, because of our habit of left wing governments banning the importation of right wing political speakers, we are now in the rather absurd situation of banning Gert Welders, who is probably going to be the next elected leader of the Netherlands.   So too, banning Nigel Farage sure looks id-iotic when he may well become the next Prime Minister of the UK.     The pattern of behaviour is clear.   Totalitarian governments, and the people who prefer totalitarian governments n western societies, want to ban anyone who opposes their political viewpoint, and especially those who can verbalize their opposition to totalitarian policies.      The question always remains as to why those like Delilah who apparently like totalitarianism don't just immigrate to some totalitarian hell hole and leave the rest of us in western, free market societies in peace?  

MayCaesar

@Delilah6120

I have no idea, but I recommend saving the comments somewhere before posting them. I type mine in Notepad++ first and keep them there until I see them show up on the website.

Delilah6120

@Factfinder

Again, just exactly what crimes did Joe Biden commit?

Delilah6120

@MayCaesar

Again, I do not understand what it means to abuse one's right. The idea of "rights" is precisely that there are some actions that one can take without the threat of retaliation by others. If there are "boundaries" to speech that should not be pushed, then we are not talking about a right any more.

I, for one, miss the Internet of the 90-s when anything went: you could say whatever you want wherever you want with no repercussions. People had much thicker skin back then and did not overreact to everything.

Do you believe it's possible that one can abuse a privilege? With every right we're granted, a corresponding responsibility to uphold that right exists. Do you believe rights should be free of accountability if you abuse that right? The right to bear arms is supported with the responsibility to ensure the weapons are locked up.  The right to free speech corresponds with a responsibility to ensure one's speech does not put others in danger. The right to drive is supported with the caveat that one must not drive drunk. I remember the 90s.  I don't believe we had tiktok, facebook, instagram or twitter back then. You miss saying whatever you want with no repercussions? So do you believe one can spew reckless speech on vulnerable others, perhaps tell them they are worthless and not face repercussions if they do do harm to themselves? Words matter. Are you married or in a relationship? If so, do you feel it necessary to be thoughtful of your words or hold your tongue with your partner?  Very weak argument and actually astounding May. Thicker skin or just the need to protect oneself from all the free speech directed toward them? To me it's not having thick skin - it's the opposite. In my experience, those with thicker skins are actually those more sensitive and prone to desperately protecting themselves by feigning a tough veneer.

Delilah6120

@MayCaesar

Your question on Trump's racism is absolutely unrelated to what I said. The point is that Trump was called racist for the particular comment he made, yet when Biden made the same comment - and proceeded with making it into a policy - nothing happened. This supports my claim on the nature of so-called "dangerous speech".

I'm not sure of the comment you speak of here. Trump has a long history of racism therefore he's more prone to this attack. Biden does not have a history of racism although he may have said in the past things that were skirting the boundaries. I believe we all have at certain points. I know I have unknowingly said things that my sons have corrected me on.

Delilah6120

@MayCaesar

Lady, I grew up in a country where people older than you kept telling everyone how wonderful life used to be back in the Soviet times. Excuse me if I do not take the whole "back in my day..." stuff seriously. People are prone to nostalgia and sugarcoat their past.

In media-driven societies such as the American and the Russian one everything gets blown out of proportion. Every election cycle we hear the same stuff: "This is the most important election in the history of this country", "If candidate X wins, democracy will die", "Our country is worse off today than it has ever been, and things are going down the drain fast".

I am interested in hard facts, not in people's emotions (that, more often than not, they would do well to keep to themselves).

I honestly have never heard "this is the most important election in history" before Trump. You don't know me well enough to assert I would ever say "back in the day".  In fact I am so aware of not saying that as my own parents did. I've been told I'm hip and open minded as a 70 year old. I still sub at the high school as I love staying connected to youth so I DON''T EVER say "back in the day...."  I try my hardest to understand and adapt to our changing society.

Delilah6120

@MayCaesar

I find your last paragraph amusing, in that you do not seem to have any concerns for Trump having been denied the ballot in multiple states already - that is not an abolition of democracy - but some "manifesto" certainly is. Does not sound logical.

In any case, you have not really provided any arguments for this particular election signifying the end of democracy. Suppose Trump did start to destroy democracy in 2016-2020. What suggests that he will finish doing so in 2024-2028? Maybe his successor will in 2032-2036? Or maybe in 2088-2092?

If I remember correctly, the states tried to deny him because he incited an insurrection to stop the peaceful transfer of power. The supreme court ruled against it because I believe there was nothing in the constitution that could uphold keeping him off the ballot. You see our founding fathers could never have imagined a reckless fraud could be elected and did not put protective provisions in place in our constitution. You may or may not be interested due to your background, but  P r o j e c t  2025 is real and shocking to millions of Americans and in the works for two years. There has been much organizing behind the scenes from Trump and his sycophants. 

Delilah6120

@MayCaesar

I find your last paragraph amusing, in that you do not seem to have any concerns for Trump having been denied the ballot in multiple states already - that is not an abolition of democracy - but some "manifesto" certainly is. Does not sound logical.

In any case, you have not really provided any arguments for this particular election signifying the end of democracy. Suppose Trump did start to destroy democracy in 2016-2020. What suggests that he will finish doing so in 2024-2028? Maybe his successor will in 2032-2036? Or maybe in 2088-2092? 

Do you believe that inciting an angry mob that he himself whipped up and told to "fight like hell to take the country back" is a reasonable cause to be concerned about the demise of our democracy? Do you believe that an ex president - one who "jokes" he wants to be a dictator but only on day one, who still pushes the lie that the election was stolen from him, who is under investigation for stealing government documents that he refused to give up,  who instigated a dangerous insurrection to stop the electoral vote count, who defamed and lied about faulty voting machines, who falsified business records to affect election results, who says that so-called fraud calls for the termination of rules found in the Constitution - is cause for concern about the stability of our Democracy if he's elected?   Read below.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/fact-check-did-donald-trump-call-to-suspend-the-constitution/ar-AA1fIliY

 

"A Massive Fraud of this type and magnitude allows for the termination of all rules, regulations, and articles, even those found in the Constitution,"                       on December 3, 2022. "Our great 'Founder' did not want, and would not condone, False & Fraudulent Elections!"

Delilah6120

@MayCaesar

For the last time, I will say: this is not the thread for this discussion. Please address my original comment. I am honestly bored with discussing this stuff.

I assure you there are millions who are not bored. You yourself have claimed you don't get involved with politics (or something to that effect). Intelligent as you appear, perhaps you are resigned to America becoming a fascist country because you are desensitized? But that does not mean that millions of Americans are not involved. We haven't lived under authoritarianism/fascism rule as you have and we don't intend to. America is and always has been The Great American Experiment. That is our truth and superpower and we're fighting to hang onto this.

I am not sure of what your original comment was you want me to address?

jack

Delilah6120 said:

I am not sure of what your original comment was you want me to address?

Hello Delilah:

You certainly don't need my help, and I'm not gonna name names, but there's a certain coterie here who suggest that posts under 350 words cannot be taken seriously..  So, they FLOOD the zone with gobbledygook, and wonder why you don't keep up.. 

I keep my posts short, concise, and snarky.  Nobody has to guess where I'm coming from.  Does it bother that contingency?  Indeed, it does.

excon

Delilah6120

@jack

Instead of pasting my who post, I broke it up and then it was accepted. I so appreciate knowing there are still great patriots like yourself who love America with all its flaws as we continue perfecting this Great American Experiment that includes all people! E Pluribus Unum. Thank you Jack

MayCaesar

Delilah6120 said:

@MayCaesar

Again, I do not understand what it means to abuse one's right. The idea of "rights" is precisely that there are some actions that one can take without the threat of retaliation by others. If there are "boundaries" to speech that should not be pushed, then we are not talking about a right any more.

I, for one, miss the Internet of the 90-s when anything went: you could say whatever you want wherever you want with no repercussions. People had much thicker skin back then and did not overreact to everything.

Do you believe it's possible that one can abuse a privilege? With every right we're granted, a corresponding responsibility to uphold that right exists. Do you believe rights should be free of accountability if you abuse that right? The right to bear arms is supported with the responsibility to ensure the weapons are locked up.  The right to free speech corresponds with a responsibility to ensure one's speech does not put others in danger. The right to drive is supported with the caveat that one must not drive drunk. I remember the 90s.  I don't believe we had tiktok, facebook, instagram or twitter back then. You miss saying whatever you want with no repercussions? So do you believe one can spew reckless speech on vulnerable others, perhaps tell them they are worthless and not face repercussions if they do do harm to themselves? Words matter. Are you married or in a relationship? If so, do you feel it necessary to be thoughtful of your words or hold your tongue with your partner?  Very weak argument and actually astounding May. Thicker skin or just the need to protect oneself from all the free speech directed toward them? To me it's not having thick skin - it's the opposite. In my experience, those with thicker skins are actually those more sensitive and prone to desperately protecting themselves by feigning a tough veneer.

First, rights are not privileges. Second, no, I do not think it is possible to abuse it. Social consequences of exercising one's right in a particular way are inevitable, and everyone can decide for themselves what consequences they are willing to accept. In Elon Musk's view, the benefits of the way he runs Twitter outweigh the costs, otherwise he would run it differently. Anyone unhappy with Twitter is free to not use it, or even to start their own social media company operating differently. To me as a private individual, all of this is of zero concern.

Delilah6120 said:

@MayCaesar

Your question on Trump's racism is absolutely unrelated to what I said. The point is that Trump was called racist for the particular comment he made, yet when Biden made the same comment - and proceeded with making it into a policy - nothing happened. This supports my claim on the nature of so-called "dangerous speech".

I'm not sure of the comment you speak of here. Trump has a long history of racism therefore he's more prone to this attack. Biden does not have a history of racism although he may have said in the past things that were skirting the boundaries. I believe we all have at certain points. I know I have unknowingly said things that my sons have corrected me on.

If every time Biden says something you automatically consider it non-racist, then yes, Biden will have no history of racism. Then you might as well define racist speech as everything Trump says, and define the opposite as everything Biden says. Pretty useless term, if you ask me.

Delilah6120 said:

@MayCaesar

Lady, I grew up in a country where people older than you kept telling everyone how wonderful life used to be back in the Soviet times. Excuse me if I do not take the whole "back in my day..." stuff seriously. People are prone to nostalgia and sugarcoat their past.

In media-driven societies such as the American and the Russian one everything gets blown out of proportion. Every election cycle we hear the same stuff: "This is the most important election in the history of this country", "If candidate X wins, democracy will die", "Our country is worse off today than it has ever been, and things are going down the drain fast".

I am interested in hard facts, not in people's emotions (that, more often than not, they would do well to keep to themselves).

I honestly have never heard "this is the most important election in history" before Trump. You don't know me well enough to assert I would ever say "back in the day".  In fact I am so aware of not saying that as my own parents did. I've been told I'm hip and open minded as a 70 year old. I still sub at the high school as I love staying connected to youth so I DON''T EVER say "back in the day...."  I try my hardest to understand and adapt to our changing society.

The first US election I was curious about was the one in 2000, and people absolutely used this phrase - and, the shocker, Democrats tried overturning the election then. Curious, is it not? 

I do not remember a single election in the US that was even relatively chill. Compare it to most elections in Western Europe that somehow avoid a lot of this drama.

Delilah6120 said:

@MayCaesar

I find your last paragraph amusing, in that you do not seem to have any concerns for Trump having been denied the ballot in multiple states already - that is not an abolition of democracy - but some "manifesto" certainly is. Does not sound logical.

In any case, you have not really provided any arguments for this particular election signifying the end of democracy. Suppose Trump did start to destroy democracy in 2016-2020. What suggests that he will finish doing so in 2024-2028? Maybe his successor will in 2032-2036? Or maybe in 2088-2092?

If I remember correctly, the states tried to deny him because he incited an insurrection to stop the peaceful transfer of power. The supreme court ruled against it because I believe there was nothing in the constitution that could uphold keeping him off the ballot. You see our founding fathers could never have imagined a reckless fraud could be elected and did not put protective provisions in place in our constitution. You may or may not be interested due to your background, but  P r o j e c t  2025 is real and shocking to millions of Americans and in the works for two years. There has been much organizing behind the scenes from Trump and his sycophants. 

As far as I can tell, the whole idea of the American system was to make sure that power-hungry lords stay back in Europe and do not have an entrance into the system here. If the basic principles of the system have to be dismissed upon the slightest challenge, then it is a lousy system. I do not think the US system lousy, therefore "project 2025" and other fantasies of some ideologues do not worry me.

Delilah6120 said:

@MayCaesar

I find your last paragraph amusing, in that you do not seem to have any concerns for Trump having been denied the ballot in multiple states already - that is not an abolition of democracy - but some "manifesto" certainly is. Does not sound logical.

In any case, you have not really provided any arguments for this particular election signifying the end of democracy. Suppose Trump did start to destroy democracy in 2016-2020. What suggests that he will finish doing so in 2024-2028? Maybe his successor will in 2032-2036? Or maybe in 2088-2092? 

Do you believe that inciting an angry mob that he himself whipped up and told to "fight like hell to take the country back" is a reasonable cause to be concerned about the demise of our democracy? Do you believe that an ex president - one who "jokes" he wants to be a dictator but only on day one, who still pushes the lie that the election was stolen from him, who is under investigation for stealing government documents that he refused to give up,  who instigated a dangerous insurrection to stop the electoral vote count, who defamed and lied about faulty voting machines, who falsified business records to affect election results, who says that so-called fraud calls for the termination of rules found in the Constitution - is cause for concern about the stability of our Democracy if he's elected?   Read below.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/fact-check-did-donald-trump-call-to-suspend-the-constitution/ar-AA1fIliY

 

"A Massive Fraud of this type and magnitude allows for the termination of all rules, regulations, and articles, even those found in the Constitution,"                       on December 3, 2022. "Our great 'Founder' did not want, and would not condone, False & Fraudulent Elections!"

Anything can be seen as a cause for concern. But I asked a very specific question. What should make me conclude that it is precisely the next 4 years that will destroy democracy if Trump is elected? And how do you define destruction of democracy? What specific observations should one make about the country to confidently say, "Yesterday democracy was alive, but today it is dead"?

Delilah6120 said:

@MayCaesar

For the last time, I will say: this is not the thread for this discussion. Please address my original comment. I am honestly bored with discussing this stuff.

I assure you there are millions who are not bored. You yourself have claimed you don't get involved with politics (or something to that effect). Intelligent as you appear, perhaps you are resigned to America becoming a fascist country because you are desensitized? But that does not mean that millions of Americans are not involved. We haven't lived under authoritarianism/fascism rule as you have and we don't intend to. America is and always has been The Great American Experiment. That is our truth and superpower and we're fighting to hang onto this.

I am not sure of what your original comment was you want me to address?

I think that the idea that the US has a reasonable chance of becoming a fascist country in the foreseeable future is absolutely ridiculous. Regardless, I have a lot of things I am interested in, and politics is not one of them. Especially since 99% people talking about politics never actually do anything. They just argue at Thanksgiving dinners, then go and vote for whatever corrupt guy is running from their party of choice.

As for the comment, I have mentioned it many times already: the very first comment I posted in this thread.

jack

MayCaesar said:

I think that the idea that the US has a reasonable chance of becoming a fascist country in the foreseeable future is absolutely ridiculous.

Hello again, May:

Even with a fascist at the helm????  What flavor of koolade did you drink?  DU*DE!!!!

excon