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The Exodus and the Wanderings in the Desert: The biblical narrative describes the Israelites' exodus from Egypt and subsequent 40-year wandering in the desert before entering the Promised Land. If this event occurred as described, we would haved found archaeological evidence such as encampments or artifacts in the Sinai desert. This could include pottery, tools, or other remnants of a large population living in the area for an extended period. To date, extensive archaeological searches have not produced evidence that conclusively supports the biblical narrative as described, leading to various scholarly debates about the historicity and scale of these events.
The Flood Story in Genesis: The story of Noah's Ark and the global flood would, if literally true, be expected to leave behind widespread geological evidence of a catastrophic global flood. Scientists have investigated earth's geological records for such evidence. While there are local flood myths in various cultures, and evidence of local and regional floods throughout history, the geological record does not support the occurrence of a single global flood covering the entire earth in recent history. Geological formations and the fossil record are analyzed to understand Earth's history, including water levels and climate conditions over time.
The Conquest of Canaan: The Book of Joshua describes the Israelites' conquest of Canaan, involving the destruction of Jericho and other cities. Archaeological evidence that would support this narrative would include destruction layers at ancient sites corresponding to the biblical timeline. While there are destruction layers at some sites, such as Jericho, the dating and interpretation of these layers are subjects of intense debate among archaeologists. In some cases, the archaeological evidence does not match the biblical timeline or shows a more gradual process of settlement rather than a sudden conquest.
The Kingdoms of David and Solomon: If the united monarchy under David and Solomon existed as described in the Bible, we would expect to find architectural remains, inscriptions, or other artifacts attesting to their reigns and the extent of their kingdoms. Archaeologists have uncovered some sites and artifacts that suggest a complex society in the relevant period, but direct evidence of David and Solomon's reigns, such as inscriptions naming them, is limited. The Tel Dan Stele mentions a "House of David," which some scholars interpret as evidence of David's dynasty.
Sodom and Gomorrah: The biblical account of the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah suggests a catastrophic event in the region near the Dead Sea. Archaeologists have investigated several sites in this area to identify any that might correspond to these cities. If such an event occurred as described, we might expect to find evidence of sudden destruction, possibly through seismic activity, fire, or another catastrophic event. Some sites show signs of sudden abandonment or destruction in ancient times, but linking them conclusively to the biblical account is extremely challenging.
Genetic Evidence: One approach to seeking evidence for a historical Adam and Eve would be through human genetics, specifically looking at mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) and the Y-chromosome. Mitochondrial Eve and Y-chromosomal Adam refer to the most recent common ancestors of all humans in the direct female and male lines, respectively. However, it's important to note that these individuals didn't live at the same time, nor were they the only humans alive during their lifetimes. Genetic studies show a diverse and intermingling human population over tens of thousands of years, rather than a single originating pair.
Anthropological and Paleontological Evidence: Fossil records and anthropological studies have provided a detailed understanding of human evolution, showing a gradual development of hominins over millions of years. Sites across Africa and elsewhere have yielded fossils of various hominin species that exhibit a complex mosaic of evolving traits leading up to modern humans (Homo sapiens). This evidence supports a model of shared ancestry among multiple lineages rather than a single first pair of humans.
Archaeological Evidence: Evidence of early human habitats, tools, and art offers insights into the development of human culture and society over time. While these discoveries showcase the ingenuity and adaptability of early humans, they do not align with a literal interpretation of a single first couple starting human society. Instead, they indicate a gradual evolution of technology and culture among early human populations.
Geographical and Environmental Evidence: The narrative of the Garden of Eden describes a location with specific geographic markers (such as the Tigris and Euphrates rivers). While these are real rivers, attempts to locate the Garden of Eden based on descriptions in Genesis have not led to any consensus among scholars or archaeologists. Environmental studies of ancient landscapes can reveal how humans interacted with their surroundings, but no specific location has been identified that matches the biblical description of Eden with its associated implications.
Contemporary Records: Written records from Jesus' time that directly mention his actions, teachings, and impact. Most historical figures from this period are known through texts written years, if not decades or centuries, after their death. For Jesus, contemporaneous records by observers or administrative documents mentioning him would be invaluable.
Physical Artifacts: Any physical objects directly linked to Jesus, such as tools, clothing, or personal belongings, would provide tangible connections to his life. Similarly, archaeological evidence of specific locations mentioned in the Gospels, like the house of Peter in Capernaum, where direct evidence of Jesus' presence might be found, would be significant. None of this to this date exists.
Independent Accounts: Additional accounts of Jesus' life and ministry from other cultures or religions present in the region at the time, outside of the Jewish and early Christian contexts, would provide a broader perspective on his historical impact.
Official Roman Records: Roman administrative or legal documents referencing Jesus, such as records of his trial, crucifixion, or any interactions with Roman officials, would offer a non-Christian perspective on his life and the events surrounding his death.
Detailed Genealogical Records: More detailed genealogical records tracing Jesus' ancestry could provide insights into his familial and social background, corroborating the genealogies provided in the Gospels of Matthew and Luke.
More Extensive Jewish Records: Additional Jewish texts from the period that mention Jesus could offer further context on his relationship with contemporary Jewish religious movements and leaders.
Early Christian Documents: More early Christian writings, especially those from the first century that did not make it into the New Testament, could provide additional viewpoints on Jesus' teachings and the early Christian community's understanding of his life and ministry.
Tower of Babel
@RickeyHoltsClaw, as a future apologist, you face a significant challenge. Merely asserting that evidence is found in nature and the Bible, which you regard as the written word of God, is insufficient. Effort is required. It's somewhat ironic that if the Bible is indeed the word of God, then it seems it wasn't effectively communicated, given that none of the evidence for these claims can be substantiated. Logically, one might conclude that He either doesn't exist or is indifferent to whether people believe.
P.S.: It could also be beneficial for you to adopt a more humble and less self-righteous attitude, taking inspiration from notworthy contemporary mainstream biblical scholars and even apologists. These scholars are sincere, true to themselves and others, and have dedicated their entire careers to studying these matters:
James Kugel: An expert in the Hebrew Bible and its interpretation, Kugel explores how ancient biblical texts were understood in their own time and how modern scholarship reads these texts today. His work often addresses the challenges of reconciling traditional religious beliefs with critical historical and literary analysis.
Bart D. Ehrman: A New Testament scholar, Ehrman has written extensively on early Christianity and the historical Jesus. While his work often challenges traditional evangelical perspectives, it contributes significantly to discussions about the historical context of the New Testament and the development of Christian doctrines.
John J. Collins: Specializing in the Hebrew Bible and the Dead Sea Scrolls, Collins' work focuses on the intersection of religion and society in the Second Temple period. His scholarship on Jewish apocalyptic literature and wisdom texts contributes to understanding the biblical world in its historical context.
Amy-Jill Levine: A Jewish New Testament scholar, Levine brings a unique perspective to Christian scriptures by exploring Jesus' Jewish context. Her work emphasizes the importance of understanding Jesus within his historical and cultural environment to bridge gaps between Jewish and Christian readings of the New Testament.
N.T. Wright: Mentioned earlier as a supporter of reconciling faith and science, Wright is also a leading scholar on the historical Jesus and the New Testament. His extensive work on Pauline theology and early Christianity contributes to contemporary understanding of the Christian faith in relation to historical evidence and scholarship.
Elaine Pagels: Known for her research on early Christian texts and the Gnostic Gospels, Pagels' work explores the diversity of early Christian beliefs and practices. Her scholarship sheds light on the complex development of Christian doctrine and its relationship with other contemporary religious movements.
Walter Brueggemann: A prolific Old Testament scholar, Brueggemann is known for his theological interpretation of biblical texts. He engages with the Hebrew Bible in a way that considers both its ancient context and its relevance for contemporary faith and practice.
Mark S. Smith: Specializing in the Hebrew Bible and its ancient Near Eastern context, Smith's work on the origins of biblical monotheism and the development of Israelite religion contributes to understanding how ancient Israel's religious practices and beliefs fit into the broader ancient world.
Francis Collins: The founder of BioLogos, Collins is a geneticist known for leading the Human Genome Project. He advocates for theistic evolution, arguing that scientific discoveries about the universe and life on Earth are compatible with Christian faith. His book "The Language of God" explores how one can embrace both scientific truth and faith in God.
John Polkinghorne: A physicist and Anglican priest, Polkinghorne has written extensively on the compatibility of science and religion, particularly in the context of quantum physics and Christian theology. He supports the concept of a divinely ordered universe that is comprehensible through both scientific inquiry and theological reflection.
N.T. Wright: While primarily known for his work as a New Testament scholar, Wright has also spoken on the relationship between faith and science. He emphasizes a historical-critical understanding of Scripture, suggesting that early Genesis should be read in its ancient Near Eastern context, rather than through the lens of modern scientific inquiry.
Alister McGrath: McGrath, with a background in both molecular biophysics and theology, is a prominent voice in the dialogue between science and faith. He has critiqued both atheistic naturalism and young-earth creationism, promoting a view that sees science and faith as mutually enriching.
Denis Alexander: A molecular biologist and emeritus director of the Faraday Institute for Science and Religion, Alexander advocates for the integration of faith and science. He is a proponent of theistic evolution and has written extensively on how evolutionary biology can be viewed within a Christian framework.
Deborah Haarsma: As the President of BioLogos, Haarsma, an astrophysicist, contributes to the ongoing discussion on science and faith. She speaks and writes on how the study of the cosmos can complement the theological understanding of creation.
John H. Walton: A professor of Old Testament at Wheaton College, Walton is known for his interpretation of Genesis in the context of its ancient Near Eastern environment. His work suggests that the biblical creation accounts address functional origins rather than material origins, thus allowing room for evolutionary theory within a biblical framework.
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There's just nothing to add to that. If ricky had any integrity he would back away and reevaluate his, motives and position. Even if it's only on some levels.
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Rickey, Zues has essentially admitted that he can not intellectually defend the position of abiogenies and that the universe was created from nothing. Instead he has taken a classic method of throwing everything at the wall to see what sticks.
You have listed a lot of items. And each one would take significant time to go through. Let me just mention some evidence of the Exodus.
1) The Egyptian Ipuwer Papyrus - it reads like a song of mourning right after the Exodus out of Egypt. The phrasing is very eerily like the 10 plagues. Here is just a snippet from section 2:
Other sections mourn the death of children who have been taken from great and small alike.
2) The Amarna letters mention a Canaanite group they call Hyksos that ancient historians associated with Israel.
3) There is both written and physical evidence that Asiatic people were enslaved in Egypt
4) Skeletons of infants of three months old and younger, usually several in one box, buried under homes in a slave town called Kahun that corresponds tot he time Pharoah killed Jewish children
5) Masses of houses and shops in Kahun, abandoned so quickly that tools, household implements, and other possessions were left behind. The findings suggest the abandonment was total, hasty, and done on short notice which corresponds tot he time of the Exodus.
6) The Merneptah Stele artifact, dates to a few hundred (at most) years after the Exodus and mentions Israel being in the territory north of Egypt - so it was a distinct 'nation' at that time
7) Mittelsaal House at Avaris is a Caananite/Jewish home in Egypt that fits the account of Abraham going to Egypt
8) “Bahr Yusef” or the Waterway (Canal) of Joseph.- rumored to have been dug at Joseph's orders in Egypt to help deal with the coming famine
9) Brooklyn Papyrus from the 13th dynasty speaks of large slave groups of semitic settlements
10) Shasu of Yhwh Name Ring - The inscription speaks of the nomads of Yaweh. Since the Merneptah Steele speaks of a set location for Israel, this Egyptian inscription shows that Israel was a nomadic nation for a period of time.
11) Berlin pedestal stone inscription - earliest mention of Israel - Egypt depicts them as semitic people, not black like Africans and as slaves to Egypt.
12) The discovery of a palace, tomb, and statue of a semitic high official. Behind the palace was a set of 12 principal tombs with chapels associated with each. One of these tombs was unique because it was in the form of a small pyramid with a statue of its occupant in the chapel. The statue had all the motifs designating a Semitic figure from the Canaan area. This included a coat of many colors.
13)Walls of Jericho - archaeology has discovered that the walls of Jericho did indeed fall and the time frame fits the biblical account
14) You see Egyptian names for Biblical figures like Moses, Aaron, Hur, etc.
15) “The Torah is infused with Egyptian culture and its response to it,”according to Prof. Joshua Berman from Bar-Ilan University’s Zalman Shamir Bible Department. The expression “mighty hand and outstretched arm” appears multiple times in the Bible, but only in reference to the Exodus. Berman said this is not by chance, as this is an Egyptian phrase.
It is hard to rationalize how Israel's identity became so infused with the Exodus if it did not happen. Many of its laws about foreigners and the poor are based on the fact that Israel had been slaves.
Again, these are just a few pieces of evidence against the obviously false claim that there is no evidence of the Exodus.
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Rickey, Zues has essentially admitted that he can not intellectually defend the position of abiogenies
Prove that false allegation. At no place or time on this web site have I seen any such concession by @ZeusAres42.
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Well, out of the two of them I thought @just_sayin would have that integrity. Guess I was wrong about him. Shame. But as the often is said you can't reason with a person that has abandonded reason. And that is the case here.
And as also as MayCaesar said, there comes a time when you cannot logically defend this faith here without resorting to making a whole load of bullsh!t up which is definitely the case with these two. They have no clue what they are talking about. And so they resort to just lying about stuff and something think that this makes them sound clever. Beggers belief.
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And they never saw it coming!
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Exactly, he is now just outright lying. But that is what an ametuer does when all else fails; they make stuff up. The biblical sholars and apologists I mentioned do have some stuff of value and interesting at least to say. These two don't. They don't even realize how incometent they are it beggers belief. They don't even realize that what they are doing is actually a disrvice to something that other people who spent their whole lives studying. Definetley mount stup!d of the dunning kruger effect here is them. @just_sayin you are not William Lane Craig. You are not a good defender of this faith. You are at best a try hard. Do not give up your day job.
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Didn't know whether to give you the fist pump or the funny, but rest assured you deserved both.
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I gotta go to sleep but as you know every single thing that pseudo intellect @just_saying just listed does not constitute as suffiencet evidence and I will show later. Unless you beat me to it.
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Many other scholars reject this view, and instead see the biblical exodus traditions as the invention of the exilic and post-exilic Jewish community, with little to no historical basis
Though scholars generally do not recognize the biblical portrayal of the Exodus as an actual historical event,[98] various historical pharaohs have been proposed as the corresponding ruler at the time the story takes place, with Ramesses II as the most popular candidate for Pharaoh of the Exodus.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ramesses_II
Sorry you lose.
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For laughs and giggles, could you tell me what enemy of Egypt went into Egypt and
1) Turned the river to blood
2) Caused pestilence
3) Destroyed the trees and caused them to fall
4) Destroyed the grain
5) Caused many to drown
6) Made former slaves rich
7) killed the children of small and great alike
The song of Lament, Ipuwer Papyrus, certainly fits the 10 plagues of Egypt
Jericho - yep they found the fallen walls in the 1950's, From Deseret News:
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1) The Ipuwer Papyrus
2) The Amarna Letters and Hyksos
3) Asiatic People Enslaved in Egypt
4) Skeletons of Infants
5) Abandonment of Kahun
6) The Merneptah Stele
7) Mittelsaal House at Avaris
8-15) Various Artifacts and Cultural References
Scholarly Consensus and Challenges
The scholarly consensus on the Exodus is that while there may have been migrations and interactions between Semitic peoples and Egypt, the narrative as presented in the Bible is not directly corroborated by archaeological evidence in the manner described. Scholars emphasize the complex nature of interpreting ancient texts and artifacts, cautioning against reading them as straightforward historical accounts. The Exodus story, like many biblical narratives, holds profound religious and cultural significance, embodying themes of oppression, liberation, and identity that resonate beyond their historical specificity.
In sum, while the evidence cited raises interesting points of discussion, it does not conclusively support the Exodus narrative as historically accurate in the manner described in the Bible. Scholarly investigation into the historical Exodus continues, employing a multidisciplinary approach that includes archaeology, Egyptology, biblical studies, and cultural anthropology to build a nuanced understanding of the past.
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Go back to the kids table. Leave this discussion to the adults.
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Simply because you're spiritually dead and Satan has blinded your mind and heart from receiving and seeing the Truth of Scripture is no need to rant and accuse in spiritual ignorance. If you have a problem with the Scriptures, I'll gladly assist you to understand if you're too lazy to research with an unbiased motive, but don't vomit on the page with numerous alleged "inconsistencies" and expect me to slave over you atheistic idiocy and laziness. If you want to take one subject at a time and discuss same rationally, I'll do that but I'm not a slave to the demonic atheist and it is you that is existing in nihilistic idiocy and arrogance and it is you that is headed to death in Hell; therefore, humble yourself and ask your question...but do so succinctly, please?
In other words after you yell and scream insults at people, spam the board with religious nonsense; you don't want to be treated like you treat others? You don't want people to posts facts and truisms that debunk your childish claims? Sorry ricky, you lose again. You will face reality one day.
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Shush. Go back to the kids table. Leave this discussion to the adults.
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Go back to the kids table. The adults are talking. Every time you say something childish like this you are instructed to go to the kids table.
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I have come to rebound to my earlier position, one that I had when I was in my mid-teens, terribly critical of all traditions and societal trends: religion is just a bunch of childish fantasies. Anyone who takes religious stories seriously and literally and who is above the age of 5-6 has had some screwed up intellectual development, whether it be a result of brutal social conditioning, or some serious failures in the personal philosophical search.
I do not know how it is possible to think that events described in an old fantasy book are true. This is just completely idiotic, frankly.
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I'm currently researching the history of religions. It's interesting to see how similar the ancient greeks, Egyptian, Persians all genuinely believed in stuff that isn't really that much different than modern day religions.
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I have not said anything though that diverges from what you said here. It seems self-evident that one's religiosity is a produce of their environment: no one suddenly comes on their own to believe that an old fantasy book describes the reality. That does not change the predicament I find myself in: whenever I try to respect their opinion, I get burned, and I feel ugly inside for making a compromise that I do not make in any other situation. I would not be telling, say, someone who worships Hitler, "I see, we just have different opinions". And I think that worshiping a god that allegedly killed the entire human population except for one small family once is 1) far more wicked than worshiping Hitler, and 2) makes less sense as that event has never even happened. However you spin it, these are just horrible systems of beliefs based on a ridiculous epistemology. I am not sure what use there is in respecting that.
Anyone is free to have any opinion, but they are not free from their opinion being judged by others. I will not actively interfere in someone's life and tell them that their beliefs are wrong - but if they want to discuss their beliefs with me, they better be ready to hear some damning criticism. I expect the same of others: if I become tilted and start believing in some fantasy nonsense, I want them to tell me that. There are things that are much more obvious to an independent observer than to the subject of those things.
Lastly, I do not see how something being popular or widely accepted changes things. Imagine if tomorrow you learn that, say, in Thailand almost everyone believes in levitating heads of dead widows that prey on children at night: would you not be bewildered? I, as an independent observer, am equally bewildered by the idea that the Earth was created in 7 days by "god": I have this nice ability to look at a claim as if I had never heard it before, and when I look at religious claims from this perspective, they look completely ridiculous me.
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One has to wonder that without Zoroastrianism that there might not have beem Judaism, Christianity or islam.
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https://www.timelessmyths.com/religion/similarities-between-horus-and-jesus/
Some sources say that Horus had 12 disciples as well, performed miracles, healed sick people, exorcised people from demons, and raised people from the dead. However, Jesus of Nazareth brought Lazarus back to life, when Horus did the same thing to a person named El-Azur-Us. They also both walked on water and did a sermon on a mount.
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That does not change the predicament I find myself in: whenever I try to respect their opinion, I get burned, and I feel ugly inside for making a compromise that I do not make in any other situation.
I get that. This is why and it is harsh, they do not care what your opinion is. They are like the Borg on star trex the next generation. Their only goal is to assimilate you into their faith. And they have a strong foothold in this country.
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I am not sure they do. At the very least, I have never felt any pressure from them to take religion more seriously. Sure, there will be an odd preacher every now and then who will try to get under your skin - but, by and large, if you do not disturb the hornet's nest, even in the US you will barely hear about them. As I said before, the only time I ever think about religion is when I come here and see endless threads about religion. It simply does not enter my life in any way. And my experience with Baptist churches has been very positive and they never tried converting me into anything.
That is why I always find myself trying to keep the door open and closed at the same time. On one hand, many religious people are amazing. On the other hand, many amazing people are religious. And these two facts make me feel the opposite ways.
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Could be that I just do not look like someone who is likely to become religious. My understanding is that religious zealots typically prey after people who have serious issues in life and who are desperate to join some community that will care for them. But I am a very happy guy, and I like messing with people friendlily and spreading good vibes. Definitely not someone these folks are after.
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This was rather interesting research obtained from chatgpt:
"Zoroastrianism indeed has had a profound influence on the development of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam, both directly and indirectly, through its concepts and theological innovations. While it is challenging to draw a straight line of influence, there are several key areas where Zoroastrianism's impact is noticeable:
It's important to note that while Zoroastrianism played a significant role in shaping these later monotheistic religions, each faith developed its own unique identity and theological framework over time. The transmission of religious ideas is complex and often occurs through a mix of direct and indirect interactions, including trade, conquest, and cultural exchange. Therefore, while Zoroastrianism contributed significantly to the spiritual and conceptual landscape from which Judaism, Christianity, and Islam emerged, it is one of several influences that shaped these religions."Monotheism: Zoroastrianism's emphasis on Ahura Mazda as the supreme deity introduced or reinforced the idea of a singular, all-powerful God, which is a central tenet of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam.
Dualism: The concept of a cosmic battle between good and evil, embodied by Ahura Mazda (good) and Angra Mainyu (evil) in Zoroastrianism, can be seen in the later religious texts and beliefs of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. This dualism influenced the theological narratives around God and Satan, Heaven and Hell, and the eternal struggle between righteousness and sin.
Eschatology: Zoroastrianism introduced detailed concepts of the afterlife, judgment after death, resurrection, and a final confrontation between good and evil. These ideas are echoed in the eschatological beliefs of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam.
Messiah: The Zoroastrian texts speak of a savior figure, Saoshyant, who would come to lead the forces of good against evil, restoring the world to its perfect state. This concept influenced the messianic expectations in Judaism, the role of Jesus Christ in Christianity, and views of the Mahdi in Islam.
Angels and Demons: The introduction of benevolent and malevolent spiritual beings serving higher cosmic powers in Zoroastrianism influenced the development of similar concepts in Judaism, Christianity, and Islam.
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That said I still believe zoroastrianism accounts for much of todays religious dogma. For instance the similarities between jesus and horus may not be the knockout punch that would totally discredit christianity, but then again it's not on us to do so. We do not make the assertions, they do. Proving the negative is never the standard. Proving the positive is what generates knowledge of value.
Back to horus. This myth is from 5000 years ago. He was the son of 'another god', so not 'god'. His mother was the goddess isis, not mary. Osiris, god of the underworld was his father, the 'other' god. That's significant because osiris also holds the title 'King of the Resurrection'. Horus is said to have never actually died however. It is said isis hid in the marshes around the nile river till horus became of age where as jesus left at age 12 and came back at 30. So to me it's pretty clear zoroastrianism most likely had a role in the forming of Christianity albeit it Judaism (about a little more of 1000 yrs later) role was weightier. If you want to read more about horus I found this article pretty interesting... https://www.britannica.com/topic/Isis-Egyptian-goddess
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I am sure even Rickey can be a pleasure to be around, perhaps when he hangs out with his family. It is hard to imagine given what a maniac he comes across as around here, but it is very much possible that were either of us run into him in a more casual setting, we would not even guess that he can be an annoying prick.
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All could be very true but it doesn't change the goal to grow when discussing a religious body of people. It's very much like a business, if it doesn't grow, it dies. It doesn't mean they can't be sincere in other areas of life. I honestly couldn't tell you why no one seems to want to talk religion to you personally, but in general the religious would like to. There is a strong undercurrent of nominal christians in this country, but frankly if you're talking about say church officials, it blows my mind they wouldn't try to talk to you.
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I think they value their time and effort and do not want to waste them on someone who clearly is not interested in even entertaining taking their religion seriously. It is not necessarily something I say or do that makes it obvious to them that that is the case - rather, I think, it is the general way I carry myself. I make fun of everyone and everything, including myself, and their religion being made fun of is something these people are mortally afraid of. I had a conversation with someone about that who pointed out that one of the defining features of all religions is absolute unacceptability of humor: any jabs, even friendly ones, at religion are considered acts of sacrilege. These people would rather have someone yell curses at the god - at least that is something they know how to respond to with dignity - than someone compare their god to noodle soup.
So when I show up at a church after working all day on the beach (those were the days...) and say, "I must look like a sandworm right now. You don't get many visitors like this here, do you?", they probably decide not to disturb the hornets' nest and just let me joke about mundane things. And I respect their preference: I, after all, am a guest in their house. If they do not bother me with their preaching, then I will not bother them with jokes that offend them.
That works the other way around too: they are great people when they allow themselves to let loose and just have a good time. It is when they grow super-serious and start talking about "god's plan" and the "afterlife" that they become intolerable.
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@Factfinder @MayCaesar I don't like either of you...I think you're both a boil on the butt of America and our society...you have sided with the Devil and queers and abortionists and progressives...nothing good or honorable comes from these demonically influenced ideologies and worldviews...you're both as useless as the tits on a boar hog.
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I don't like either of you...I think you're both a boil on the butt of America and our society...you have sided with the Devil and queers and abortionists and progressives...nothing good or honorable comes from these demonically influenced ideologies and worldviews...you're both as useless as the tits on a boar hog.
Ah, don't you just feel the christian love. @MayCaesar? Ricky, I'll say one thing for you; you represent all the bigotry, hate, condoned violence, and valid reasons to oppose your elf goddess even if there was a smidgit of evidence it existed. Spend eternity with that evil thing and you or hell, I'd choose hell every time. But since it's all childish fantasy we don't have to worry. But you do. Your elf book doesn't like subjects that aren't loving or smart enough to keep followers. You cause people to reject your elf god and that makes it mad. You're going to hell. And no it's not talking about little kids only; as you know for a fact your god considers all of us his children. So no hiding behind that. Don't you wish god gave you a brain?
Mark 9:42: Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him if a great millstone were hung around his neck and he were thrown into the sea.
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You see? When you believed, you believed, you were not convinced by compelling arguments, you just believed as you read the bible. It wasn't an active choice to believe, you just did. Probably had a euphoric experience as you read and believed? That's because you were open to the concepts the bible talks about generally because it was expected in your upbringing to believe in god. No one around you gave you cause to be skeptical of the idea, so you weren't. Now you're here where people do give cause to be skeptical and that is an affront to your sense of established faith. It doesn't mean we spread hate, does it have to mean you will?
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I can understand your frustration, especially when one or more people try to shove endless religious nonsense down your throat. However, I cannot entirely agree with this or the other assertions you have made about Santa Claus in the past being the same as a belief in God. And I will explain why. First, I see nothing wrong with your first paragraph and can resonate with it.
Moreover, regarding the latter bits, most children of this age are not interested in this kind of stuff and are probably far more interested in the next game they're going to play on their console, or something else. Children at this age are still developing intellectually; this kind of development doesn't end at the prepubescent age.
Furthermore, the idea that belief in God is akin to some childish fantasy or like the belief in Santa is a false equivalence and kind of a blanket assertion. If we just take Santa for example, while he and God might share some very similar traits, there is one huge difference: falsifiability. We can know that Santa doesn't deliver presents to all the kids in the world at the speed of light on one particular day of the year. We can know that Santa doesn't live in the North Pole. And by not doing these things, he is no longer Santa.
Now, even if one does manage to come up with some wild and bizarre philosophical argument as to how he still could be Santa, there is still the fact that most people of normal mental ability by the time they reach adulthood no longer believe in Santa. And the fact that more than 80 percent of the world's population ascribe to some kind of religion. This means that there is a huge difference in religious beliefs versus Santa beliefs or other fairy tale beliefs.
While I do agree that religion has something to do with what is going on in the brain (I even say that there is an evolutionary factor here too), I cannot agree with the blanket assertion that one is religious because they are intellectually inferior to those that are not. That claim in itself is something I am skeptical about and would require hard evidence to convince me that it is the case. Interestingly, on a similar note, I think it was Michael Shermer who said that he had noted in his debates/discussions it tends to be those of high intellectual ability that seem to be very clever at rationalizing their beliefs and thus justifying their positions to themselves and others.
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Okay I tried. I think I will mute you as well.
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Interestingly, and this is what I hope to be looking at more some time in the future is the roots of religious beliefs/spirtual practices which can be traced back all the way to the Upper Paleolithic period, around 50,000 to 10,000 years ago.
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Judaism started with Abraham in around 1800 BCE. see the problem with your argument???
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Reading comprehension doesn't seem to be your forte, does it, @just_sayin? Firstly, this wasn't an argument. Secondly, none of the accusations you've made about what was written actually exist. Nowhere in this post is it stated or implied that Zoroastrianism or any deity began without beliefs first rooted in polytheism.
Furthemore, before the codification of any monotheistic religion Judaism that started with Abraham actually involved beliefs in polytheism.
See the problem with your argument???? From your own source.
This is why I often refrain from taking the time to respond to you with my own well-thought-out arguments. It's become clear that you either don't read carefully or continue to deliberately misrepresent the other person's position. The latter, I find to be intellectually dishonest and disrespectful, and as a result, you have lost my respect.
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Interestingly, and this is what I hope to be looking at more some time in the future is the roots of religious beliefs/spirtual practices which can be traced back all the way to the Upper Paleolithic period, around 50,000 to 10,000 years ago.
Yeah. The human brain needs answers, it seeks them out. We seem to be a species that has to compartmentalize what we observe in order to relax psychologically; when we do not have them. "God did it" appears to do the trick. It wouldn't surprise me at all if you found religious dogma from like 20,000 years ago. Though that would blow huge holes in the abrahamic religion of christianity. Considering there's only like 6000 years of lineage from adam and eve till now and all.
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I will also add that I am not "frustrated": I very rarely talk to anyone about religion outside of these boards, and religion does not impact my life. I was just sharing my observations, and if I feel any way about it, it is ugly because of all the compromises I have gone to when trying to respect those people views, when deep inside I cannot find any reasons to respect them.
Now, to the Santa question, I think you underestimate the extent to which people may go when trying to preserve their beliefs. There are many interpretations of Santa, and one that has been disproven can be switched to another. Here is an unfalsifiable one: Santa sometimes brings presents to good kids, but the kids have to be really-really good, and presents may not necessarily be physical presents. You met the love of your life in your adulthood? It is Santa's present: you were a good kid, and he cast a spell and made sure that your life will be out there waiting for you. You ate a great food at a restaurant? Santa gifted the chef with a great culinary talent because the chef was a good kid. Someone's life is falling apart? They did not receive any gifts from Santa because, even though everyone thought they were a good kid, behind everyone's backs they were doing something very naughty.
Lastly, I want to address this part that is very common (often implicitly stated) in these discussions:
I do not think that popularity of something supports its validity (and I am sure that you will agree with it). If your point is that, because religion is much more popular than serious belief in Santa, then people are much more likely to inherit it from their family/community/society, then I do not dispute that. That does not change the preposterousness of the beliefs in question. One can be led to believe in very wacky things by social conditioning, sure. But if one is to analyze the, let us call it, "quality" of such beliefs, they must approach it by looking at the intrinsic merit of these beliefs and not on how they are propagated. Of course no one should be surprised that a North Korean kid believes in magical powers of his Dear Leader - the belief is still ridiculous, however.
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