@Barnardot

I never understood @Barnardot, why any man would be concerned about what another man wants sexually. I mean if they want another man well that leaves more women for the rest of us! It's a win, win. Why does it have to be a question of perversion? Why not, let the fortunes fall where they may? 

@Factfinder ;I mean if they want another man well that leaves more women for the rest of us! It's a win, win.

Well you may well ponder that situation but there are all ways equalizers in life and one thing your got to take in to a count is that many of those women are dikes. And if you think its frustrating taking home a chick only to find out the hard way that shes a tranny with a doolie. Then what about taking home a chick with all the right equipment only to find out that shes got hairy arm pits and wants to do you with a strap on.

@elijah44 ;You can’t get a whole group of people and just say they are pervs, some are, but not all.

Im not talking generally or generically about any group of people so your point has nothing to do with it and isnt valid at all. Im talking pacifically about homophobes and why they are perverts. They are perverts because they talk about the sexuality of gays as being an abomination and not natural and being disgusting. So they are talking of sexual behavior which is normal and acceptable so there fore there views on sex are perverted. And Im sure that if you dig deep in to there sexual behaviors youll find a hole heap of other perversions going on there.

Several religious traditions associate same sex relationships with sin.  

For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature; and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error. And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a debased mind to do what ought not to be done. - Romans 1:26 - 28

Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God. - 1 Corinthians 6:9-11

Barnardot said:

@Factfinder ;I mean if they want another man well that leaves more women for the rest of us! It's a win, win.

Well you may well ponder that situation but there are all ways equalizers in life and one thing your got to take in to a count is that many of those women are dikes. And if you think its frustrating taking home a chick only to find out the hard way that shes a tranny with a doolie. Then what about taking home a chick with all the right equipment only to find out that shes got hairy arm pits and wants to do you with a strap on.

None of that matters. It would still be true if there were no male homosexuals. The fact that there is make the field of opportunity for heterosexual males to find heterosexual females larger. You can say 'what if neither existed', and it still wouldn't matter. Cause then there would be no lesbians and straights would still get a net gain. I just don't see why it matters to anyone other than the people who are involved. A 'homophobe' might be aware of their weakness or vulnerability, so they want to stay away from certain lifestyles. Or the very thought could repulse them; but in any case it doesn't automatically mean they're perverts. 

@ZeusAres42@Barnardot

If there is a case to be made homophobes are criminal for 'gay bashing' well that is true but only of the ones who do things like that. I just do not see how someone is perverted just for having an opinion. 

ZeusAres42 said:

just_sayin said:

Several religious traditions associate same sex relationships with sin.  

For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature; and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error. And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a debased mind to do what ought not to be done. - Romans 1:26 - 28

Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God. - 1 Corinthians 6:9-11

For the same reason that certain other sexual practices are deemed sin, same-sex sex is considered a sin by the Bible.

Often not discussed are the serious health issues that are associated with same sex relationships.  These are often hidden and downplayed due to to LGBTQ+ status as a minority group:  From the National Library of Medicine:

homosexual activity may be associated with a lifespan shortened by 20 to 30 years.

From Health

Here is a list of increased health risks

1) Increased risk of sexually transmitted diseases, including HIV.  Adolescent and adult gay and bisexual men made up 68% of new HIV diagnoses in the United States in 2018.

Gay and bisexual men are also at a higher risk for other STIs than others. Chlamydia, syphilis, and gonorrhea also significantly increase the risk of getting or transmitting HIV.

Additionally, some evidence suggests that LGBTQ+ people are more likely to have the human papillomavirus virus (HPV). Gay, bisexual, and MSM are 20 times more likely than heterosexual men to develop anal cancer (Patel P, Bush T, Kojic EM, et al. Prevalence, Incidence, and Clearance of Anal High-Risk Human Papillomavirus Infection Among HIV-Infected Men in the SUN Study. J Infect Dis. 2018;217(6):953-963. doi:10.1093/infdis/jix607)

 Certain strains of HPV cause anal cancer. Also, some strains of HPV are the cause of cervical cancer. But it's also a risk factor for anogenital cancers. HPV also links to head and neck malignancies due to transmission of the virus via oral sex.

2) HIgher rates of partner violence

3) Substance Abuse

Research has found that people who identify as lesbian or gay are more than twice as likely as people who identify as heterosexual to abuse alcohol or tobacco. And people who identify as bisexual are three times as likely.(Boyd CJ, Veliz PT, Stephenson R, Hughes TL, McCabe SE. Severity of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Drug Use Disorders Among Sexual Minority Individuals and Their "Not Sure" Counterparts. LGBT Health. 2019;6(1):15-22. doi:10.1089/lgbt.2018.0122)

4) Greater Risk of Mental Health Conditions

5) Greater Risk of Obesity and Eating Disorders

Research has found that bisexual and lesbian women were more likely to be overweight or obese than women who identify as heterosexual.

6) Increased Risk of Breast and Cervical Cancer

7) Heart Disease

Research has found that lesbian, gay, and bisexual adults have a higher risk of heart disease and other cardiac problems than others. 

I don't think talking about how God views same sex relationships and the health risks of same-sex makes one 'perverted'.  It may offend some though.

You see, @Barnardo, this is exactly why your argument is perverted. Of course, @just_saying's argument isn't any different. Hey, I guess we could call this perversion metastasis! 

I don't see how the views are 'perverted'.  The religious views you may disagree with if you have other religious values.  The health issues are the health issues.  Surely you aren't suggesting that we keep the health risks hidden from people are you?  

Factfinder said:

just_sayin said:

ZeusAres42 said:

just_sayin said:

Several religious traditions associate same sex relationships with sin.  

For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature; and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error. And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a debased mind to do what ought not to be done. - Romans 1:26 - 28

Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God. - 1 Corinthians 6:9-11

For the same reason that certain other sexual practices are deemed sin, same-sex sex is considered a sin by the Bible.

Often not discussed are the serious health issues that are associated with same sex relationships.  These are often hidden and downplayed due to to LGBTQ+ status as a minority group:  From the National Library of Medicine:

homosexual activity may be associated with a lifespan shortened by 20 to 30 years.

From Health

Here is a list of increased health risks

1) Increased risk of sexually transmitted diseases, including HIV.  Adolescent and adult gay and bisexual men made up 68% of new HIV diagnoses in the United States in 2018.

Gay and bisexual men are also at a higher risk for other STIs than others. Chlamydia, syphilis, and gonorrhea also significantly increase the risk of getting or transmitting HIV.

Additionally, some evidence suggests that LGBTQ+ people are more likely to have the human papillomavirus virus (HPV). Gay, bisexual, and MSM are 20 times more likely than heterosexual men to develop anal cancer (Patel P, Bush T, Kojic EM, et al. Prevalence, Incidence, and Clearance of Anal High-Risk Human Papillomavirus Infection Among HIV-Infected Men in the SUN Study. J Infect Dis. 2018;217(6):953-963. doi:10.1093/infdis/jix607)

 Certain strains of HPV cause anal cancer. Also, some strains of HPV are the cause of cervical cancer. But it's also a risk factor for anogenital cancers. HPV also links to head and neck malignancies due to transmission of the virus via oral sex.

2) HIgher rates of partner violence

3) Substance Abuse

Research has found that people who identify as lesbian or gay are more than twice as likely as people who identify as heterosexual to abuse alcohol or tobacco. And people who identify as bisexual are three times as likely.(Boyd CJ, Veliz PT, Stephenson R, Hughes TL, McCabe SE. Severity of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Drug Use Disorders Among Sexual Minority Individuals and Their "Not Sure" Counterparts. LGBT Health. 2019;6(1):15-22. doi:10.1089/lgbt.2018.0122)

4) Greater Risk of Mental Health Conditions

5) Greater Risk of Obesity and Eating Disorders

Research has found that bisexual and lesbian women were more likely to be overweight or obese than women who identify as heterosexual.

6) Increased Risk of Breast and Cervical Cancer

7) Heart Disease

Research has found that lesbian, gay, and bisexual adults have a higher risk of heart disease and other cardiac problems than others. 

I don't think talking about how God views same sex relationships and the health risks of same-sex makes one 'perverted'.  It may offend some though.

You see, @Barnardo, this is exactly why your argument is perverted. Of course, @just_saying's argument isn't any different. Hey, I guess we could call this perversion metastasis! 

I don't see how the views are 'perverted'.  The religious views you may disagree with if you have other religious values.  The health issues are the health issues.  Surely you aren't suggesting that we keep the health risks hidden from people are you?  

That's because you miss the point. The views whether they be homophobic, or homosexual, are diametrically opposed so it makes sense for the two to try and avoid the other when possible; but that in no way endorses one over the other. And in no way is one perverse and the other not. It is what it is and that it.

I don't agree.  I think it is possible to be a homosexual and acknowledge  there are increased health issues.  I  believe there are people all the time who live a life that is not in agreement with the faith they profess.  

Factfinder said:

just_sayin said:

Factfinder said:

just_sayin said:

ZeusAres42 said:

just_sayin said:

Several religious traditions associate same sex relationships with sin.  

For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature; and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error. And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a debased mind to do what ought not to be done. - Romans 1:26 - 28

Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God. - 1 Corinthians 6:9-11

For the same reason that certain other sexual practices are deemed sin, same-sex sex is considered a sin by the Bible.

Often not discussed are the serious health issues that are associated with same sex relationships.  These are often hidden and downplayed due to to LGBTQ+ status as a minority group:  From the National Library of Medicine:

homosexual activity may be associated with a lifespan shortened by 20 to 30 years.

From Health

Here is a list of increased health risks

1) Increased risk of sexually transmitted diseases, including HIV.  Adolescent and adult gay and bisexual men made up 68% of new HIV diagnoses in the United States in 2018.

Gay and bisexual men are also at a higher risk for other STIs than others. Chlamydia, syphilis, and gonorrhea also significantly increase the risk of getting or transmitting HIV.

Additionally, some evidence suggests that LGBTQ+ people are more likely to have the human papillomavirus virus (HPV). Gay, bisexual, and MSM are 20 times more likely than heterosexual men to develop anal cancer (Patel P, Bush T, Kojic EM, et al. Prevalence, Incidence, and Clearance of Anal High-Risk Human Papillomavirus Infection Among HIV-Infected Men in the SUN Study. J Infect Dis. 2018;217(6):953-963. doi:10.1093/infdis/jix607)

 Certain strains of HPV cause anal cancer. Also, some strains of HPV are the cause of cervical cancer. But it's also a risk factor for anogenital cancers. HPV also links to head and neck malignancies due to transmission of the virus via oral sex.

2) HIgher rates of partner violence

3) Substance Abuse

Research has found that people who identify as lesbian or gay are more than twice as likely as people who identify as heterosexual to abuse alcohol or tobacco. And people who identify as bisexual are three times as likely.(Boyd CJ, Veliz PT, Stephenson R, Hughes TL, McCabe SE. Severity of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Drug Use Disorders Among Sexual Minority Individuals and Their "Not Sure" Counterparts. LGBT Health. 2019;6(1):15-22. doi:10.1089/lgbt.2018.0122)

4) Greater Risk of Mental Health Conditions

5) Greater Risk of Obesity and Eating Disorders

Research has found that bisexual and lesbian women were more likely to be overweight or obese than women who identify as heterosexual.

6) Increased Risk of Breast and Cervical Cancer

7) Heart Disease

Research has found that lesbian, gay, and bisexual adults have a higher risk of heart disease and other cardiac problems than others. 

I don't think talking about how God views same sex relationships and the health risks of same-sex makes one 'perverted'.  It may offend some though.

You see, @Barnardo, this is exactly why your argument is perverted. Of course, @just_saying's argument isn't any different. Hey, I guess we could call this perversion metastasis! 

I don't see how the views are 'perverted'.  The religious views you may disagree with if you have other religious values.  The health issues are the health issues.  Surely you aren't suggesting that we keep the health risks hidden from people are you?  

That's because you miss the point. The views whether they be homophobic, or homosexual, are diametrically opposed so it makes sense for the two to try and avoid the other when possible; but that in no way endorses one over the other. And in no way is one perverse and the other not. It is what it is and that it.

I don't agree.  I think it is possible to be a homosexual and acknowledge  there are increased health issues.  I  believe there are people all the time who live a life that is not in agreement with the faith they profess.  

So what are you calling perverse? That's the debate. Are homophobics perverse?

In @Barnarot 's initial post he said no one ever gives reasons about objections to homosexuality.  I provided him with 2 different types of reasons people do indeed give.  Now Bernie was just doing it to try and make quick points based on a false premise and smear people who don't agree with his viewpoint.  

Perverse is a moral term - it makes the most sense in moral argument's such as religious ones.  Now I will admit though, after reading that the LGBTQ+ lifestyle cuts the average person's lifespan by 20 to 30 years - that the health issues could be viewed from a moral lens also.  Though, I'd personally classify them as health issues related to the lifestyle.  

@just_sayin @Factfinder ; I provided him with 2 different types of reasons people do indeed give.  Now Bernie

Now Just Sain. You gave no reasons at all because there are no reasons that any one gives. Just lame aced excuses. Thats all.

ZeusAres42 said:

@just_sayin

I'm a bit confused. How do the sexual health issues you raise support your argument that homosexuality is a sin? 

As for my statement regarding perversion, it was a play on words, a way to play along and comment on @Bardardot's stance, which I would bluntly call nothing more than a reflection of language fu*cking! And this is regardless of whether he is intentionally mocking people with an aversion to gays or not; his argument is still a dumb one and does nothing productive. 

Neither your nor @Bardardot's argument holds up to scrutiny. Both arguments are not based on evidence-based epistemology. They are void of knowledge that has been obtained objectively—that is, knowledge obtained through verifiable facts and empirical evidence.

Bernie claimed that no one ever offers any reason for their objection for homosexuality.  I provided 2 lines of argumentation.  I did not say that because something is unhealthy it is automatically a sin.  I made 2 arguments.  

You said my arguments don't hold up to scrutiny.  Please explain.  If you don't accept the religious tradition, fine, but it is a long held religious belief based on clear directions in the Bible given in response to sexual activity that deviates from the biblical teaching that sex is between a male and female within marriage.  I'm not asking you to agree with the biblical belief, only acknowledge that it is a reason that people give for their objection of same-sex relationships.

The health issues are what they are.  Are you denying that LGBTQ+ people have several increased health risks?  On the debate main page right now is @Dreamer 's debate on if drinking causes cancer and how it should be sharply curtailed because of it.  We have debated mandating behaviors due to COVID.  So whether or not you would agree with restricting sexual practices due to health risks, the argument has been made.  Again, I'm not demanding you agree with the conclusion, just acknowledge that the argument has been made.

There are many health studies on LGBTQ+ issues.  It would be hard to argue that there are no differences in health outcomes - especially regarding HIV, and certain cancers.  You don't think such evidence is empirical?

ZeusAres42 said:

Please don't put words into my mouth.

I feel like that should be a signature automatically added to any response to this guy.

But since we are on the topic... May I express preference for having other things in my mouth than words? Sorry, I have watched too much Jimmy Carr recently.

Barnardot said:

@just_sayin ;Surely you aren't suggesting that we keep the health risks hidden from people are you?  

So then what about the health issues associated with heteros or did that just slip your mind for some funny reason.

You gave absolutely no reasons at all about why there are people who hate gays are perverted. The so called health reasons about getting anal infections are not reasons at all. Because heteros have anal sex as well so it is not just a gay issue at all. And even if your research shows that gays have more violence in relationships so what. How much more? It is either more less or the same and I bet the difference is neither here nor there. 

So in the end the only reason why some people hate homosexuals is because they are hateful and ignorant. And the reason they are perverted is that when they want to gay bash it will always be about the sexuality part of being gay. That makes them perverts because thats all they think of. Sexual perversions or rather there perceived sexual perversions. If they want to go on about anal sex and oral sex well then hello every one does that weather or not they are gay or straight. These perverts just want to single out gays because of there ignorant hatred and all they can think of is making sex out as being perverted. But its them who are perverted and I bet that if you analize the homophobes I can guarantee that there are some pretty nasty skeletons of a sexual nature in there closets. What do you reckon?

Well, the debate wasn't specifically about 'heteros' so I did not mention them.  I don't normally focus on issues that aren't part of that debate.  For that you should look to @MayCaesar.

The Health article I mentioned focused on several health areas, not just about cancers and STIs.  You are correct regarding sexual behaviors, that there is an increased risk of HIV, STIs and certain mouth, stomach, prostate, anal, and colon cancers for whomever engages in those sexual practices. However, it would be foolish to ignore the statistical trends of behaviors.  For example, heterosexual men are about 3-5% of people, but they account for 61-66% of new HIV cases.  Over 50% of all Black homosexual males have HIV.  It would be irresponsible to ignore those increased health risks and say 'your chance of getting it is the same as anyone else's'.  That would be inaccurate and potentially harmful to homosexual patients who may be mislead to think that their risks are lower than they are.

Another thing to consider is the number of sex partners and how frequently someone has sex, particularly engaging in sex acts that increase the health risks.  In both the number of lifetime sex partners and in annual frequency categories homosexual men have higher statistics on average than heterosexual men.  So the statistics for groups are not the same and suggest higher risks.  These are just generalities, and each specific individuals behaviors determine their potential risk. 

Pointing out increased health risks in not hateful, but hiding them, as you seem to want to do, because it isn't politically correct, is hateful and potentially harmful. 

@MayCaesar ;May I express preference for having other things in my mouth than words? 

I suppose that shoving doolies in your mouth passes a way the time waiting for the screen to refresh on your 3rd world laptop. Those Pronhub videos are all in 4k now so your laptop wouldnt even be able to handle it any way.

@just_sayin ;

Well, the debate wasn't specifically about 'heteros' so I did not mention them.  I don't normally focus on issues that aren't part of that debate.  For that you should look to @MayCaesar.

The Health article I mentioned focused on several health areas, not just about cancers and STIs.  You are correct regarding sexual behaviors, that there is an increased risk of HIV, STIs and certain mouth, stomach, prostate, anal, and colon cancers for whomever engages in those sexual practices. However, it would be foolish to ignore the statistical trends of behaviors.  For example, heterosexual men are about 3-5% of people, but they account for 61-66% of new HIV cases.  Over 50% of all Black homosexual males have HIV.  It would be irresponsible to ignore those increased health risks and say 'your chance of getting it is the same as anyone else's'.  That would be inaccurate and potentially harmful to homosexual patients who may be mislead to think that their risks are lower than they are.

Another thing to consider is the number of sex partners and how frequently someone has sex, particularly engaging in sex acts that increase the health risks.  In both the number of lifetime sex partners and in annual frequency categories homosexual men have higher statistics on average than heterosexual men.  So the statistics for groups are not the same and suggest higher risks.  These are just generalities, and each specific individuals behaviors determine their potential risk. 

Pointing out increased health risks in not hateful, but hiding them, as you seem to want to do, because it isn't politically correct, is hateful and potentially harmful. 

What exactly is your point? What are you trying to argue? You've generalized all gay people, skewing statistics in ways that to misrepresent the truth. For instance, your claim that over 50% of all Black homosexuals have HIV is not only exaggerated but also misaligned with contemporary data. According to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC, 2020), while the rates of HIV among Black MSM are disproportionately high, they fall far short of the 50% mark you suggest. These kinds of claims not only misleads but also harms the communities it purports to describe.

Also, viewing the issue through a binary lens, as either wholly good or bad, mirrors an 'us vs. them' mindset commonly found in extreme social activism. This to me is a reflection of a reductionist view fails to recognize the spectrum of behaviors within the homosexual community, where some individuals engage in high-risk behaviors, and lots do not. 

Also, your argument ignores the affect of stigmatization on mental health, leading to adverse outcomes like substance abuse, suicidal thoughts, and a hesitancy to seek help. 

ZeusAres42 said:

@just_sayin ;

Well, the debate wasn't specifically about 'heteros' so I did not mention them.  I don't normally focus on issues that aren't part of that debate.  For that you should look to @MayCaesar.

The Health article I mentioned focused on several health areas, not just about cancers and STIs.  You are correct regarding sexual behaviors, that there is an increased risk of HIV, STIs and certain mouth, stomach, prostate, anal, and colon cancers for whomever engages in those sexual practices. However, it would be foolish to ignore the statistical trends of behaviors.  For example, heterosexual men are about 3-5% of people, but they account for 61-66% of new HIV cases.  Over 50% of all Black homosexual males have HIV.  It would be irresponsible to ignore those increased health risks and say 'your chance of getting it is the same as anyone else's'.  That would be inaccurate and potentially harmful to homosexual patients who may be mislead to think that their risks are lower than they are.

Another thing to consider is the number of sex partners and how frequently someone has sex, particularly engaging in sex acts that increase the health risks.  In both the number of lifetime sex partners and in annual frequency categories homosexual men have higher statistics on average than heterosexual men.  So the statistics for groups are not the same and suggest higher risks.  These are just generalities, and each specific individuals behaviors determine their potential risk. 

Pointing out increased health risks in not hateful, but hiding them, as you seem to want to do, because it isn't politically correct, is hateful and potentially harmful. 

What exactly is your point? What are you trying to argue? You've generalized all gay people, skewing statistics in ways that to misrepresent the truth. For instance, your claim that over 50% of all Black homosexuals have HIV is not only exaggerated but also misaligned with contemporary data. According to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC, 2020), while the rates of HIV among Black MSM are disproportionately high, they fall far short of the 50% mark you suggest. These kinds of claims not only misleads but also harms the communities it purports to describe.

Also, viewing the issue through a binary lens, as either wholly good or bad, mirrors an 'us vs. them' mindset commonly found in extreme social activism. This to me is a reflection of a reductionist view fails to recognize the spectrum of behaviors within the homosexual community, where some individuals engage in high-risk behaviors, and lots do not. 

Also, your argument ignores the affect of stigmatization on mental health, leading to adverse outcomes like substance abuse, suicidal thoughts, and a hesitancy to seek help. 

Half of black gay men and a quarter of Latino gay men projected to be diagnosed within their lifetime

If current HIV diagnoses rates persist, about 1 in 2 black men who have sex with men (MSM) and 1 in 4 Latino MSM in the United States will be diagnosed with HIV during their lifetime, according to a new analysis by researchers at the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC). 

“As alarming as these lifetime risk estimates are, they are not a foregone conclusion. They are a call to action,” said Jonathan Mermin, M.D., director of CDC’s National Center for HIV/AIDS, Viral Hepatitis, STD, and Tuberculosis Prevention.

Gay or Bisexual Black Men Have 50 Percent Risk of HIV

The average American has just a 1 percent risk of ever being infected with the AIDS virus, but gay and bisexual black men have a 50 percent risk.

The High Risk of Gay Black Men Getting HIV 

Updated on June 15, 2022

• Black MSM have a one-in-two lifetime risk of HIV, by far the highest rate of all risk groups.

Zeus, no one wants the numbers to be what they are.  However to lie about them, or to attack the messenger is an immoral approach.  If people want to engage in unhealthy behaviors that is their right, however, we should not pretend that those behaviors have no risk, nor should we hide from others what those risks are.  

You seem to suggest that high suicide rates among LGBTQ+ people are all due to stigmatization.  In countries very accepting of same-sex relationship the suicide rates are still very high.  The reasons that LGBTQ+ people give for their suicide attempts are the same as for heterosexual people.  Could it be that you have an agenda and want to blame others for the mental health issues of LGBTQ+ persons rather than a concern to help them identify and address those issues?  It certainly comes across that way.  .  

Factfinder said:

@just_sayin

LGBTQ

You refuse to discount the effect you people have on the  LGBTQIA  community. You hate them for no reason. 

You people????  Now that's a bigoted turn of phrase.  While I believe same-sex sex is a sin and associated sexual behaviors are unhealthy, I do not hate anyone with a same sex attraction.  

@Factfinder

Barnardot said:

@just_sayin ;If you think that health risks should be hidden from people because of political concerns, then I would argue you are the immoral one for not putting the health interests of those impacted the most by the risks as your priority.

Its really hard to suss out weather you are playing dum or actually just are plain dum at times.

All you need to do is take your daily doss of Ritalin then you will be able to focus. Now F-O-C-U-S.

The side issue of health risks has very little or nothing to do with why homophobes hate gays and that they are perverted. Everyone has health issues. Right? 

Okay now listen up. Are you listening and are you focused and have you taken your Ritalin today? Okay good.

Now the point is that there is no valid reason for any one on the planet to hate gays except that they have a problem with ignorance and are full of hatred....the one and only reason. Okay? Okay.

Now any side issues such as health and gays flicking there wrists and walking fast and having lisps are not reasons. They are lame dum excuses used by homophobes to divert there attention from the fact that they have a problem and are perverted.

Do you follow and do you comprenez? Probably not but any way you have been told even though you dont want to be told.

Bernie, we agree that we should not hate people for their sexual orientation.  My point was directed to your statement that no one ever gives reasons for their objection to same-sex relationships.  I am not rationalizing or justifying hating someone.

@Factfinder

Another fine example of me whipping you .......thanks buddy.

This seems like a common misapplication of statistics people make: not accounting for updates on a prior with new information. For example, when someone says that a Black person is much more likely to commit a violent crime than an Asian person, they are making a very general population-wide statement. However, as soon as you know even a little bit about the particular Black person and the particular Asian person, the proportion of probabilities changes drastically. For instance, if you know that both are classmates in the law school of Harvard, then the probability of either committing a violent crime is going to be less than among any large racial group on average, and the comparison between the two will not be unfavorable to the Black person.

Similarly, it is true that statistically homosexual people have inferior health outcomes to heterosexual people, outcomes that are not fully explained by their inferior status in the society (which is not even the case any more: in fact, one could argue that homosexual people have more opportunities than heterosexual people when it comes to fellowships and certain job positions targeting sexual minorities). It is hard to see, however, what being homosexual itself can possibly have to do with it, just like in the example above it is hard to see what being Black has to do with one's propensity to committing violent crime. The homosexual person may be a part of the "LGBT community" (whatever the heck it is) and influenced by some poor ideologies promoting reckless hedonism, and then, yes, their expected outcomes will poor. On the other hand, I have a couple of homosexual/bisexual friends who have graduated from elite universities with STEM degrees and are proactive enough to research dangers of unprotected sex and such and do something about it - and their outcomes are not expected (to the best of my knowledge) to be worse than those for heterosexual people of the same socio-economical standing.

I am not sure what use there is in comparing general population outcomes when the question stands as follows: "Should homosexual people be encouraged to deny their sexuality or not?" It would be interesting, to that end, to also compare the health outcomes of homosexual people engaging in homosexual relationships (including sex), and those who deny themselves the pleasure. The latter is quite unlikely to be healthy.

At the same time, it is silly to deny the obvious health risks. Saying that, all other things being equal, homosexual sex is as healthy as heterosexual sex is plainly wrong no matter how much you dislike the fact that it is wrong. Reality is what it is: you are not supposed to like or dislike it, only to accept it. Life is not fair, people are born or evolve to have traits and conditions that make their lives more difficult than if the did not have them. It is more productive to talk about adaptation to those traits and mitigation of risks, than to deny the risks and hope that political correctness will keep them at bay.

@Joeseph

https://www.debateisland.com/discussion/comment/177724/#Comment_177724

@Factfinder

https://www.debateisland.com/discussion/9658/should-israel-have-veto-power-over-creation-of-a-palestinian-state/p3

@Factfinder

https://www.debateisland.com/discussion/9658/should-israel-have-veto-power-over-creation-of-a-palestinian-state/p3

@Factfinder

https://www.debateisland.com/discussion/9658/should-israel-have-veto-power-over-creation-of-a-palestinian-state/p3