@Bogan

A contradiction would arise if I had argued that Israel both should and should not defend itself under any circumstances, but advocating for a principled, cautious approach to how defense is conducted does not present any such contradiction. My argument rests on an attempt to navigate the moral and legal challenges of military engagement, advocating for actions that are both effective in defense and ethically responsible. That it is the essence of my position. That's a big difference between this and what you are accusing me of. 

@Bogan

We are never going to be able have a rational discussion about this until you stop framing me as having positions that I don't have. If you are unsure what I mean something then ask for clarity.

PS your mention of nazi Germany is a false analogy. As well being another strawman and a kind of red herring. If you would like to discuss the violations of international law regarding world war 2 we can do that elsewhere but that is not relevant to this thread.

And no I am not a Jew. And Israel cannot be excused for the wrong doings they have done that are in violation of international law as stated by a whole bunch of countries across the globe. 

At the same time Hamas has been designated internationally as an official terrorist organisation and the global consensus is they must be dealt with accordingly. 

So you’re using “genocide” in a positive way? Why didn’t you say so? Correct, Hamas must go.

@Factfinder

I felt I needed to get more background info on this from both sides as much as possible before trying to form an objective perspective as much as possible. 

ZeusAres42 said:

@Factfinder

I felt I needed to get more background info on this from both sides as much as possible before trying to form an objective perspective as much as possible. 

My response was meant for Joseph. Sorry for the confusion I’m on my phone.  LoL

@ZeusAres42

One dirty debating tactics I am constantly confronted with is the old.....
" Always imply but when challenged, deny" .

Correct me if I am wrong, but wernt you saying that the IDF was reprehensible for completing the task of exterminating HAMAS, because it meant bombing the "Palestinian" civilians who support HAMAS?    The very same HAMAS that uses their own civilians as human sheilds?

The clear implication is that you want HAMAS to survive so that it can make good on its threat to repeat its outrage on Israeli civilians "over and over again."

Returning to WW2, you can hardy feel sorry for German civilians killed in Allied bombing and Allied ground assaults, when the German people overwhelmingly supported der fuhrer and his psychopathic party.     I watched the video of that young German Jewish girl who was first captured, gang raped, murdered, then stripped naked and taken back to Gaza, where those lovely Palestinian civilians that you think so much of, spat on her naked body and mutilated her.

I don't know about you, but I find it hard to find myself feeling sorry for a bunch of violent and brutish civilians who now find that the boot is on the other foot , and they are now the victims of the people they clamoured for their army to attack.
 

@Bogan

Please stop tagging me regarding arguments I never made and have nothing to do with me. A more appropriate tag for you would be @imagined opponent and imagined arguments. 

Thanks.

@ZeusAres42

Your avoidance of providing sufficient direct evidence, along with your arguments regarding my supposed persona and personal biases, will not strengthen the persuasive power of your stance that Israel is committing genocide. As it happens, the global consensus states otherwise. While human rights bodies have acknowledged and criticized actions that violate international law, there is not one shred of evidence that genocide is being committed. Instead, there's detailed documentation and international concern over human rights violations and potential breaches of international law by Israel, particularly regarding its policies and practices in the Occupied Palestinian Territories (OPT).

You talk about people misrepresenting you and here you are misrepresenting me , there are 3 debates going on regards this topic i've posted link after link to the charges of genocide .

Your actually denying the fact that international agencies who make genocide claims haven't " one shred of evidence " that's what you're saying right?

Also the recent court ruling regards genocide charges has been made  on the basis of not  " one shred of evidence" , seriously?

What have i said regards your persona that you find upsetting?

Your "personal  biases" I asked you a couple of clarifying questions if you don't wish to answer them just say so , if it's the case then you just want to lecture me on the topic like the pro Israeli supporters on here  are intent on doing.im not interested,  if you're interested in a dialogue on the topic I'm interested.

Also where are you getting your global concensus from? Are Amnesty, the UN etc not global enough?

That also is a fallacious argument,  what in your mind is the accepted amount of concensus before genocide claim  is valid?

Amnesty international

Israel must comply with key ICJ ruling ordering it do all in its power to prevent genocide against Palestinians in Gaza

Today’s decision by the International Court of Justice (ICJ) to order provisional measures in response to South Africa’s genocide case against Israel is an important step that could help protect the Palestinian people in the occupied Gaza Strip from further suffering and irreparable harm, said Amnesty International today.

An immediate ceasefire by all parties remains essential and – although not ordered by the Court – is the most effective condition to implement the provisional measures and end unprecedented civilian suffering.

Agnès Callamard, Secretary General of Amnesty International

The ruling issued by the ICJ ordered six provisional measures including for Israel to refrain from acts under the Genocide convention, prevent and punish the direct and public incitement to genocide, and take immediate and effective measures to ensure the provision of humanitarian assistance to civilians in Gaza. Crucially, the Court also ordered Israel to preserve evidence of genocide and to submit a report to the Court, within one month, of all measures taken in line with its order.

“Today’s decision is an authoritative reminder of the crucial role of international law in preventing genocide and protecting all victims of atrocity crimes. It sends a clear message that the world will not stand by in silence as Israel pursues a ruthless military campaign to decimate the population of the Gaza Strip and unleash death, horror and suffering against Palestinians on an unprecedented scale,” said Agnès Callamard, Secretary General of Amnesty International.

“However, the ICJ decision alone cannot put an end to the atrocities and devastation Gazans are witnessing.  Alarming signs of genocide in Gaza, and Israel’s flagrant disregard for international law highlight the urgent need for effective, unified pressure on Israel to stop its onslaught against Palestinians. An immediate ceasefire by all parties remains essential and – although not ordered by the Court – is the most effective condition to implement the provisional measures and end unprecedented civilian suffering

Human rights org.

"The Israeli government has simply ignored the court’s ruling, and in some ways even intensified its repression, including further blocking lifesaving aid.”

Other countries should use all forms of leverage, including sanctions and embargoes, to press the Israeli government to comply with the court’s binding orders in the genocide case, Human Rights Watch said.

Human Rights Watch found in December 2023 that Israeli authorities are using starvation as a weapon of war. Pursuant a policy set out by Israeli officials and carried out by Israeli forces, the Israeli authorities are deliberately blocking the delivery of water, food, and fuel, willfully impeding humanitarian assistance, apparently razing agricultural areas, and depriving the civilian population of objects indispensable to its survival.

Israeli authorities have kept its supply of electricity for Gaza shut off since the October 7 Hamas-led attacks. After initially cutting the entire supply of water that Israel provides to Gaza via three pipelines, Israel resumed piping on two of its three lines. However, due to the cuts and widespread destruction to water infrastructure amid unrelenting Israeli air and ground operations, only one of those lines remained operational at only 47 percent capacity as of February 20. Officials at the Gaza Coastal Municipalities Water Utility told Human Rights Watch on February 20 that Israeli authorities have obstructed efforts to repair the water infrastructure.

According to data published by OCHA and the UN Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees in the Near East (UNRWA), the daily average number of trucks entering Gaza with food, aid, and medicine dropped by more than a third in the weeks following the ICJ ruling: 93 trucks between January 27 and February 21, 2024, compared to 147 trucks between January 1 and 26, and only 57 between February 9 and 21. A survey of impediments to the entry of aid faced by 24 humanitarian organizations operating in Gaza between January 26 and February 15 pointed to a lack of transparency around how aid trucks can enter Gaza, delays and denials at Israeli crossings and inspection points, and concerns about safety of trucks.

By comparison, an average of 500 trucks of food and goods entered Gaza each day before the escalation in hostilities in October, during which time 1.2 million people in Gaza were estimated to be facing acute food insecurity, and 80 percent of Gaza’s population were reliant on humanitarian aid amid Israel's more than 16-year-long unlawful closure.High-ranking Israeli officials have articulated a policy to deprive civilians of food, water, and fuel, as Human Rights Watch has documented. The Israeli government spokesperson said more recently that there are “no limits” to aid entering Gaza, outside of security. Some Israeli officials blame the UN for distribution delays and accuse Hamas of diverting aid or Gaza police for failing to secure convoys.

UN

A UN human rights expert says she believes Israel has committed "acts of genocide" in Gaza.

Francesca Albanese, the UN special rapporteur on human rights in the occupied Palestinian territories, presented her report to UN member states in Geneva on Tuesday.

But Israel has already dismissed her findings.

This comes amid growing international pressure on Israel to stop the war or to do much more to protect civilians.

Ms Albanese concluded that "there are reasonable grounds to believe that the threshold indicating the commission of the crime of genocide against Palestinians as a group in Gaza has been met".

The UN expert who concluded Israel was committing acts of genocide in besieged Gaza has received broad support at the United Nations, with countries speaking up to back her and her report.

Francesca Albanese, the special rapporteur on human rights in the Palestinian territories, told the UN Human Rights Council on Tuesday that countries should impose an arms embargo and sanctions on Israel.

Expanding in person on her report released on Monday, Albanese said Israel was characterising the entire Palestinian population in besieged Gaza as "targetable, killable and destroyable" and had ostentatiously laid bare its "genocidal intent" to "rid Palestine of Palestinians".

For instance, a report by the United Nations Independent International Commission of Inquiry on the Occupied Palestinian Territory, including East Jerusalem, and Israel, outlines that Israel's occupation of Palestinian territory is considered unlawful under international law due to its permanence and the Israeli Government's de facto annexation policies. The commission highlighted the impact of Israel's policies on various aspects of Palestinian life, such as access to clean and affordable water, and the overall coercive environment intended to force Palestinians to leave their homes, thereby altering the demographic composition of certain areas. It concludes that some Israeli government policies may constitute elements of crimes under international criminal law, including the war crime of transferring, directly or indirectly, part of one's own civilian population into the occupied territory​ (OHCHR)​​ (UN News)​.

Amnesty International has also reported on Israel's practices that it argues constitute an apartheid regime, characterized by an institutionalized regime of oppression and domination against the Palestinian people. This includes massive seizures of land and property, unlawful killings, infliction of serious injuries, forcible transfers, and arbitrary restrictions on freedom of movement, among other actions. The report by Amnesty International underscores the significance of these issues within the context of international human rights and criminal law, suggesting that Israeli officials may be responsible for the crime against humanity of apartheid​ (Amnesty International)​.

You really need to read what Amnesty and the UN and Human rights org are saying cherry picking less damaging articles is hardly convincing.

While these findings and allegations are severe and demand attention and action within the realms of international diplomacy and law, they are distinct from accusations of genocide, which specifically requires evidence of intent to physically annihilate a national, ethnic, racial, or religious group, in whole or in part. The discourse around these issues underscores the importance of adhering to precise legal definitions and standards of evidence when making such grave accusations.

The charges of genocide are accurate and backed up by several human internationally respected organisations.

It's crucial, therefore, in discussions on this topic, to distinguish between different categories of international law violations and to rely on documented evidence and legal analysis. This ensures that debates and critiques are grounded in factual accuracy and contribute constructively towards addressing and resolving the documented human rights issues.

Yes.

Laslty, Wanting to eradicate a specific militant or terrorist organization like Hamas does not equate to genocide. 

You honestly believe bombing a country incessantly is the best solution to eradicating Hamas seriously? Hamas are holding the Israeli hostages so by bombing Hamas they are bombing their own people?

They don't even know where Hamas are why do you find this excuse in any way plausible?

Genocide, as defined by the United Nations in the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide (1948), specifically refers to acts committed with the intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial, or religious group. This definition emphasizes the targeting of people based on their immutable characteristics and membership in a protected group, rather than their membership in a political or militant organization.

Yes so you agree genocide is happening if you accept what the UN are saying right as quoted above or will you now deny it?

Craig Mokhiber, a director at the United Nations, to resign over the organization’s “failure” to act against what he called a "text-book case of genocide." And in a Nov. 2 press release, a separate coalition of U.N. experts similarly expressed concern, warning that Palestinians were “at grave risk of genocide.”

Raz Segal, the program director of genocide studies at Stockton University, concretely says it is a “textbook case of genocide.” Segal believes that Israeli forces are completing three genocidal acts, including, “killing, causing serious bodily harm, and measures calculated to bring about the destruction of the group.” He points to the mass levels of destruction and total siege of basic necessities—like water, food, fuel, and medical supplies—as evidence.

He says Israeli leaders expressed “explicit, clear, and direct statements of intent,” pointing to Israeli President Isaac Herzog’s statement during an Oct. 13 press conference. In his statement, Herzog said, “It’s an entire nation that is out there that’s responsible. It’s not true, this rhetoric about civilians not aware, not involved. It’s absolutely not true,” Herzog said. “They could have risen up, they could have fought against that evil regime which took over Gaza in a coup d'etat.” (Herzog later said that he is not holding the civilians of Gaza responsible for keeping Hamas in political power, when asked to clarify by a journalist at the same press conference.) Segal says that this language conflates all Palestinians as “an enemy population,” which could help prove intent.

Many experts TIME spoke to noted that they were answering based on whether they believed that the actions against Palestinians would be considered genocide under a court of law.

Verdeja says Israel's actions in Gaza are moving toward a “genocidal campaign.” While he notes that it is clear Israeli forces intend to destroy Hamas, “the response when you have a security crisis…can be one of ceasefire, negotiation, or it can be genocide.”

City University of New York professor Victoria Sanford compares what’s happening in Gaza to the killing or disappearance of more than 200,000 Mayans in Guatemala from 1960-1996, known as the Guatemalan genocide, which is the subject of her book Buried Secrets: Truth and Human Rights in Guatemala. Mayans and Palestinians have both been subject to genocidal acts, she implies. “When we match them to the lived experience of people, there are similar circumstances…if we look at contemporary conflicts like the Israeli invasion of Palestine.” Sanford and Segal were two of more than a 100 scholars and organizations that signed a letter urging the ICC to take action given the “Israeli intention to commit genocide visibly materialising on the ground."

Actions aimed at dismantling or neutralizing a militant organization are generally framed within the context of counterterrorism or military operations, which are governed by different sets of laws and principles, such as international humanitarian law and the laws of armed conflict

Yes they are tell me how this plays out in real life? Maybe you could tell me how these " humanitarian laws" played out for Irish Catholics in Nothern Ireland or how the "laws of armed " conflict operate when israei forces target ambulances and trucks carrying food?

It's a great luxury to sit in a comfy armchair imagining  decent men following international rules of armed conflict and engaging in humanitarian works.

 These frameworks are designed to regulate hostilities, protect civilians, and ensure the humane treatment of all individuals involved. It is crucial in discussions about counterterrorism or military operations to distinguish between these legal and ethical frameworks and the specific, legal definition of genocide.

Yes I know and how effective have they been?  That's a great term " counterterrorism " normally used by the dominant bully boy  nation  on  anyone percieved as the enemy , you rarely here the term "state terrorism" applied to countries entities like Great Britain or Israel do you?

Every pro Israeli person on here has demanded or hinted at the totally eradication of the Palestinians , they are of course majority American right wingers , I've no doubt if Trump is president he would sanction nuking Israel and Americans would whoop and holler like demented loons in delight.

@Factfinder

your tactics of misrepresentation never ends. 

Who have I misrepresented?

@ZeusAres42

If you complain about Israel's perfectly sensible methods of destroying HAMAS, then I wonder whether your position is one of misplaced humanity, or whether you just think HAMAS should survive to fight another day.

HAMAS's implacable position is the total eradication of Israel, which if you ever bothered to think about it means the complete eradication of the entire Jewish population.    There are different grades of war, and what Israel is facing is total war.    Either win, or face the complete eradication of your entire population.    

Given that option, Israel can only do whatever it takes to achieve victory.    Jews do not walk resignedly into gas chambers any more to get exterminated in their millions.    They will do whatever it takes to win, and I for one can not criticise them for that.   My opinion is, that the the Israelis care more for the lives of Palestinian civilians than the Palestinian leaders do.

This war could be over tomorrow if Muslims everywhere agreed that Israel has a right to exist.

@ZeusAres42

Before I refute your latest attempt to defend he people who want to kill you, I will say that I regard Joseph as a low IQ ratbag who seems to think that hurling personal abuse somehow equates to " debating."    I do not bother with the sod, and I do not understand why people keep responding to his abusive posts?     Just ignore him and he will just go away and presumably take his bad attitude out on his girlfriend.     Even Joseph's dog doesn't like him.

  I will now try to explain to you why your opinion is wrong in as simple a terms as possible.

Imagine you have two groups of people.    One group is called " Muslims" and they really do think that their group is special, and everybody else on the planet is some sort of untermenshen, who should be murdered if they do not convert to Islam.

Their group was started by a caravan raiding slave trader and paedophile.     He was also a genocidal mass murderer who hated the Jews because they would not convert to his evil religion.    So he had 700 Jewish men beheaded while he and his 9 year old sex slave " watched" this entertaining spectacle.

He was a very good military commander, who dreamed up a new way of fighting which worked a treat.   That was the idea of a religious warrior who would get all sorts of rewards in heaven if he died in battle enlarging the Territory of the Muslim group.

This group eventually got around to invading the territory of another group of people, who were called " Jews".    These were the same Jews which the first groups creator hated.    And when they took over the second groups land, they knocked down the second groups most holy temple and built a dirty great mosque on it, which implied that the land which once belonged to the Jews was now theirs fiever.

However, the second group did not like the first group stealing their territory and they eventually returned.    This was anathema to the first group who did, and still do, want to exterminate the second group completely.

The second group are fed up of being regularly exterminated by everybody, so this time they got really organised.    Because the second group routinely gets exterminated, a funny genetic factor evolved.    The smart ones usually escaped extermination, so they as a group became the smartest group in the world.

Now this second group is back in their own homeland again and this time they are staying.   They have learned the lesson the hard way that whilever they are a minority in someone else's country, their group will always be in the greatest danger of extermination.

So, this time they will fight to survive.    This has upset the first group, who still want to go to heaven by killing those hated by their groups founder.    This is because the countries in which this first group has become established are all shiitholes.

Meanwhile, other groups around the world, who are not in danger of getting exterminated, seem to think that war should be played by the Queensbury rules.   One reason for that, is because the past wars they each got involved with were bad wars where anything goes.

So they have dreamed up rules of war that are very civilised.   But the problem is, that what these outside groups have forgotten, is that fighting fair only works among groups who are gentlemen.    The first group are not gentlemen at all, they are religious fanatics who are a part of an extremely violent religion where there are no holds barred. They prefer more " traditional" ways of fighting, which includes gang rape as an earthly reward, and completely exterminating those who offend their prophet.

The first group, the exterminatees if you like, do not want to get exterminated again.    So, although they are gentlemen, and they do try and comply with the Queensbury rules, they know that if they comply with what rules the virtue signallers in other countries demand, then the bastards who shot dead their women and children by the hundreds will get away with it, and do it again, and again, and again.    Which they have already bragged about doing.

So, the second group are going to do the intelligent thing and fight dirty.    And they could not give a shiit about what the virtue signallers, or the Leftist HAMAS supporters in safe countries say, as they sip their latte's and pretend that they are better people than everybody else.

Joeseph said:

@ZeusAres42

Your avoidance of providing sufficient direct evidence, along with your arguments regarding my supposed persona and personal biases, will not strengthen the persuasive power of your stance that Israel is committing genocide. As it happens, the global consensus states otherwise. While human rights bodies have acknowledged and criticized actions that violate international law, there is not one shred of evidence that genocide is being committed. Instead, there's detailed documentation and international concern over human rights violations and potential breaches of international law by Israel, particularly regarding its policies and practices in the Occupied Palestinian Territories (OPT).

You talk about people misrepresenting you and here you are misrepresenting me , there are 3 debates going on regards this topic i've posted link after link to the charges of genocide .

Your actually denying the fact that international agencies who make genocide claims haven't " one shred of evidence " that's what you're saying right?

Also the recent court ruling regards genocide charges has been made  on the basis of not  " one shred of evidence" , seriously?

What have i said regards your persona that you find upsetting?

Your "personal  biases" I asked you a couple of clarifying questions if you don't wish to answer them just say so , if it's the case then you just want to lecture me on the topic like the pro Israeli supporters on here  are intent on doing.im not interested,  if you're interested in a dialogue on the topic I'm interested.

Also where are you getting your global concensus from? Are Amnesty, the UN etc not global enough?

That also is a fallacious argument,  what in your mind is the accepted amount of concensus before genocide claim  is valid?

Amnesty international

Israel must comply with key ICJ ruling ordering it do all in its power to prevent genocide against Palestinians in Gaza

Today’s decision by the International Court of Justice (ICJ) to order provisional measures in response to South Africa’s genocide case against Israel is an important step that could help protect the Palestinian people in the occupied Gaza Strip from further suffering and irreparable harm, said Amnesty International today.

An immediate ceasefire by all parties remains essential and – although not ordered by the Court – is the most effective condition to implement the provisional measures and end unprecedented civilian suffering.

Agnès Callamard, Secretary General of Amnesty International

The ruling issued by the ICJ ordered six provisional measures including for Israel to refrain from acts under the Genocide convention, prevent and punish the direct and public incitement to genocide, and take immediate and effective measures to ensure the provision of humanitarian assistance to civilians in Gaza. Crucially, the Court also ordered Israel to preserve evidence of genocide and to submit a report to the Court, within one month, of all measures taken in line with its order.

“Today’s decision is an authoritative reminder of the crucial role of international law in preventing genocide and protecting all victims of atrocity crimes. It sends a clear message that the world will not stand by in silence as Israel pursues a ruthless military campaign to decimate the population of the Gaza Strip and unleash death, horror and suffering against Palestinians on an unprecedented scale,” said Agnès Callamard, Secretary General of Amnesty International.

“However, the ICJ decision alone cannot put an end to the atrocities and devastation Gazans are witnessing.  Alarming signs of genocide in Gaza, and Israel’s flagrant disregard for international law highlight the urgent need for effective, unified pressure on Israel to stop its onslaught against Palestinians. An immediate ceasefire by all parties remains essential and – although not ordered by the Court – is the most effective condition to implement the provisional measures and end unprecedented civilian suffering

Human rights org.

"The Israeli government has simply ignored the court’s ruling, and in some ways even intensified its repression, including further blocking lifesaving aid.”

Other countries should use all forms of leverage, including sanctions and embargoes, to press the Israeli government to comply with the court’s binding orders in the genocide case, Human Rights Watch said.

Human Rights Watch found in December 2023 that Israeli authorities are using starvation as a weapon of war. Pursuant a policy set out by Israeli officials and carried out by Israeli forces, the Israeli authorities are deliberately blocking the delivery of water, food, and fuel, willfully impeding humanitarian assistance, apparently razing agricultural areas, and depriving the civilian population of objects indispensable to its survival.

Israeli authorities have kept its supply of electricity for Gaza shut off since the October 7 Hamas-led attacks. After initially cutting the entire supply of water that Israel provides to Gaza via three pipelines, Israel resumed piping on two of its three lines. However, due to the cuts and widespread destruction to water infrastructure amid unrelenting Israeli air and ground operations, only one of those lines remained operational at only 47 percent capacity as of February 20. Officials at the Gaza Coastal Municipalities Water Utility told Human Rights Watch on February 20 that Israeli authorities have obstructed efforts to repair the water infrastructure.

According to data published by OCHA and the UN Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees in the Near East (UNRWA), the daily average number of trucks entering Gaza with food, aid, and medicine dropped by more than a third in the weeks following the ICJ ruling: 93 trucks between January 27 and February 21, 2024, compared to 147 trucks between January 1 and 26, and only 57 between February 9 and 21. A survey of impediments to the entry of aid faced by 24 humanitarian organizations operating in Gaza between January 26 and February 15 pointed to a lack of transparency around how aid trucks can enter Gaza, delays and denials at Israeli crossings and inspection points, and concerns about safety of trucks.

By comparison, an average of 500 trucks of food and goods entered Gaza each day before the escalation in hostilities in October, during which time 1.2 million people in Gaza were estimated to be facing acute food insecurity, and 80 percent of Gaza’s population were reliant on humanitarian aid amid Israel's more than 16-year-long unlawful closure.High-ranking Israeli officials have articulated a policy to deprive civilians of food, water, and fuel, as Human Rights Watch has documented. The Israeli government spokesperson said more recently that there are “no limits” to aid entering Gaza, outside of security. Some Israeli officials blame the UN for distribution delays and accuse Hamas of diverting aid or Gaza police for failing to secure convoys.

UN

A UN human rights expert says she believes Israel has committed "acts of genocide" in Gaza.

Francesca Albanese, the UN special rapporteur on human rights in the occupied Palestinian territories, presented her report to UN member states in Geneva on Tuesday.

But Israel has already dismissed her findings.

This comes amid growing international pressure on Israel to stop the war or to do much more to protect civilians.

Ms Albanese concluded that "there are reasonable grounds to believe that the threshold indicating the commission of the crime of genocide against Palestinians as a group in Gaza has been met".

The UN expert who concluded Israel was committing acts of genocide in besieged Gaza has received broad support at the United Nations, with countries speaking up to back her and her report.

Francesca Albanese, the special rapporteur on human rights in the Palestinian territories, told the UN Human Rights Council on Tuesday that countries should impose an arms embargo and sanctions on Israel.

Expanding in person on her report released on Monday, Albanese said Israel was characterising the entire Palestinian population in besieged Gaza as "targetable, killable and destroyable" and had ostentatiously laid bare its "genocidal intent" to "rid Palestine of Palestinians".

For instance, a report by the United Nations Independent International Commission of Inquiry on the Occupied Palestinian Territory, including East Jerusalem, and Israel, outlines that Israel's occupation of Palestinian territory is considered unlawful under international law due to its permanence and the Israeli Government's de facto annexation policies. The commission highlighted the impact of Israel's policies on various aspects of Palestinian life, such as access to clean and affordable water, and the overall coercive environment intended to force Palestinians to leave their homes, thereby altering the demographic composition of certain areas. It concludes that some Israeli government policies may constitute elements of crimes under international criminal law, including the war crime of transferring, directly or indirectly, part of one's own civilian population into the occupied territory​ (OHCHR)​​ (UN News)​.

Amnesty International has also reported on Israel's practices that it argues constitute an apartheid regime, characterized by an institutionalized regime of oppression and domination against the Palestinian people. This includes massive seizures of land and property, unlawful killings, infliction of serious injuries, forcible transfers, and arbitrary restrictions on freedom of movement, among other actions. The report by Amnesty International underscores the significance of these issues within the context of international human rights and criminal law, suggesting that Israeli officials may be responsible for the crime against humanity of apartheid​ (Amnesty International)​.

You really need to read what Amnesty and the UN and Human rights org are saying cherry picking less damaging articles is hardly convincing.

While these findings and allegations are severe and demand attention and action within the realms of international diplomacy and law, they are distinct from accusations of genocide, which specifically requires evidence of intent to physically annihilate a national, ethnic, racial, or religious group, in whole or in part. The discourse around these issues underscores the importance of adhering to precise legal definitions and standards of evidence when making such grave accusations.

The charges of genocide are accurate and backed up by several human internationally respected organisations.

It's crucial, therefore, in discussions on this topic, to distinguish between different categories of international law violations and to rely on documented evidence and legal analysis. This ensures that debates and critiques are grounded in factual accuracy and contribute constructively towards addressing and resolving the documented human rights issues.

Yes.

Laslty, Wanting to eradicate a specific militant or terrorist organization like Hamas does not equate to genocide. 

You honestly believe bombing a country incessantly is the best solution to eradicating Hamas seriously? Hamas are holding the Israeli hostages so by bombing Hamas they are bombing their own people?

They don't even know where Hamas are why do you find this excuse in any way plausible?

Genocide, as defined by the United Nations in the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide (1948), specifically refers to acts committed with the intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial, or religious group. This definition emphasizes the targeting of people based on their immutable characteristics and membership in a protected group, rather than their membership in a political or militant organization.

Yes so you agree genocide is happening if you accept what the UN are saying right as quoted above or will you now deny it?

Craig Mokhiber, a director at the United Nations, to resign over the organization’s “failure” to act against what he called a "text-book case of genocide." And in a Nov. 2 press release, a separate coalition of U.N. experts similarly expressed concern, warning that Palestinians were “at grave risk of genocide.”

Raz Segal, the program director of genocide studies at Stockton University, concretely says it is a “textbook case of genocide.” Segal believes that Israeli forces are completing three genocidal acts, including, “killing, causing serious bodily harm, and measures calculated to bring about the destruction of the group.” He points to the mass levels of destruction and total siege of basic necessities—like water, food, fuel, and medical supplies—as evidence.

He says Israeli leaders expressed “explicit, clear, and direct statements of intent,” pointing to Israeli President Isaac Herzog’s statement during an Oct. 13 press conference. In his statement, Herzog said, “It’s an entire nation that is out there that’s responsible. It’s not true, this rhetoric about civilians not aware, not involved. It’s absolutely not true,” Herzog said. “They could have risen up, they could have fought against that evil regime which took over Gaza in a coup d'etat.” (Herzog later said that he is not holding the civilians of Gaza responsible for keeping Hamas in political power, when asked to clarify by a journalist at the same press conference.) Segal says that this language conflates all Palestinians as “an enemy population,” which could help prove intent.

Many experts TIME spoke to noted that they were answering based on whether they believed that the actions against Palestinians would be considered genocide under a court of law.

Verdeja says Israel's actions in Gaza are moving toward a “genocidal campaign.” While he notes that it is clear Israeli forces intend to destroy Hamas, “the response when you have a security crisis…can be one of ceasefire, negotiation, or it can be genocide.”

City University of New York professor Victoria Sanford compares what’s happening in Gaza to the killing or disappearance of more than 200,000 Mayans in Guatemala from 1960-1996, known as the Guatemalan genocide, which is the subject of her book Buried Secrets: Truth and Human Rights in Guatemala. Mayans and Palestinians have both been subject to genocidal acts, she implies. “When we match them to the lived experience of people, there are similar circumstances…if we look at contemporary conflicts like the Israeli invasion of Palestine.” Sanford and Segal were two of more than a 100 scholars and organizations that signed a letter urging the ICC to take action given the “Israeli intention to commit genocide visibly materialising on the ground."

Actions aimed at dismantling or neutralizing a militant organization are generally framed within the context of counterterrorism or military operations, which are governed by different sets of laws and principles, such as international humanitarian law and the laws of armed conflict

Yes they are tell me how this plays out in real life? Maybe you could tell me how these " humanitarian laws" played out for Irish Catholics in Nothern Ireland or how the "laws of armed " conflict operate when israei forces target ambulances and trucks carrying food?

It's a great luxury to sit in a comfy armchair imagining  decent men following international rules of armed conflict and engaging in humanitarian works.

 These frameworks are designed to regulate hostilities, protect civilians, and ensure the humane treatment of all individuals involved. It is crucial in discussions about counterterrorism or military operations to distinguish between these legal and ethical frameworks and the specific, legal definition of genocide.

Yes I know and how effective have they been?  That's a great term " counterterrorism " normally used by the dominant bully boy  nation  on  anyone percieved as the enemy , you rarely here the term "state terrorism" applied to countries entities like Great Britain or Israel do you?

Every pro Israeli person on here has demanded or hinted at the totally eradication of the Palestinians , they are of course majority American right wingers , I've no doubt if Trump is president he would sanction nuking Israel and Americans would whoop and holler like demented loons in delight.

@Joseph,

ZeusAres42 said: 

@Factfinder

In all fairness @Joseph ;is actually addressing things I said and has the decency to quote me whereby other people can decide for themselves if any misrepresntation is present or not, unlike @Bogan. 

I really don't know what is so hard to understand by this:

"Hamas is a terrorist organzation as also stated internationally and must be dealth with accordingly. Israel has commited actions that are in violation of international law." 

@Bogan ;I will do my best now to explain this to you in as simple terms as possible:
Imagine you have two groups who are not getting along because they both want the same thing but can't agree on how to share it or who it belongs to. One group, called Hamas, has done things that many people and countries around the world think are very bad, like not playing fair or safe, which has led these people and countries to call them a "bad group." Because of this, these people and countries think this group needs to be stopped or taught to play nicely.The other group, called Israel, has also done things that some people and countries think are not okay, like not following the rules of a big, important rulebook that everyone is supposed to play by.So, both groups have done things that others think are wrong, and people are trying to figure out how to make them get along or at least not hurt each other. Comprende? @Factfinder
Maybe you could help me out with @Bogan ;because I don't know how to make this any more simpler. I will not be surprised if he still interprets this to mean that I am rooting for a terrorist organization. What I have actually wrote above is an exlanation that is designed for 5 year olds but I am guessing that is not going to make much of a difference. 
At least @Joseph ;is not outright lying about what I have said. Not that I have yet noticed anyway. I have tried to be nice with Bogan here as I do feel a bit guilty of my behaviour when he first entered into this site a year or so back; I was bit of A-whole then in how I could and should have engaged in civil discourse at that time regarding that debate. However, my patience now is wearing thin.

This is the post that @Bogan is responding to of which he cowardly failed to quote. I will leave it up the readers to make judgments about his following response here:

Bogan said:

@ZeusAres42

Before I refute your latest attempt to defend he people who want to kill you, I will say that I regard Joseph as a low IQ ratbag who seems to think that hurling personal abuse somehow equates to " debating."    I do not bother with the sod, and I do not understand why people keep responding to his abusive posts?     Just ignore him and he will just go away and presumably take his bad attitude out on his girlfriend.     Even Joseph's dog doesn't like him.

  I will now try to explain to you why your opinion is wrong in as simple a terms as possible.

Imagine you have two groups of people.    One group is called " Muslims" and they really do think that their group is special, and everybody else on the planet is some sort of untermenshen, who should be murdered if they do not convert to Islam.

Their group was started by a caravan raiding slave trader and paedophile.     He was also a genocidal mass murderer who hated the Jews because they would not convert to his evil religion.    So he had 700 Jewish men beheaded while he and his 9 year old sex slave " watched" this entertaining spectacle.

He was a very good military commander, who dreamed up a new way of fighting which worked a treat.   That was the idea of a religious warrior who would get all sorts of rewards in heaven if he died in battle enlarging the Territory of the Muslim group.

This group eventually got around to invading the territory of another group of people, who were called " Jews".    These were the same Jews which the first groups creator hated.    And when they took over the second groups land, they knocked down the second groups most holy temple and built a dirty great mosque on it, which implied that the land which once belonged to the Jews was now theirs fiever.

However, the second group did not like the first group stealing their territory and they eventually returned.    This was anathema to the first group who did, and still do, want to exterminate the second group completely.

The second group are fed up of being regularly exterminated by everybody, so this time they got really organised.    Because the second group routinely gets exterminated, a funny genetic factor evolved.    The smart ones usually escaped extermination, so they as a group became the smartest group in the world.

Now this second group is back in their own homeland again and this time they are staying.   They have learned the lesson the hard way that whilever they are a minority in someone else's country, their group will always be in the greatest danger of extermination.

So, this time they will fight to survive.    This has upset the first group, who still want to go to heaven by killing those hated by their groups founder.    This is because the countries in which this first group has become established are all shiitholes.

Meanwhile, other groups around the world, who are not in danger of getting exterminated, seem to think that war should be played by the Queensbury rules.   One reason for that, is because the past wars they each got involved with were bad wars where anything goes.

So they have dreamed up rules of war that are very civilised.   But the problem is, that what these outside groups have forgotten, is that fighting fair only works among groups who are gentlemen.    The first group are not gentlemen at all, they are religious fanatics who are a part of an extremely violent religion where there are no holds barred. They prefer more " traditional" ways of fighting, which includes gang rape as an earthly reward, and completely exterminating those who offend their prophet.

The first group, the exterminatees if you like, do not want to get exterminated again.    So, although they are gentlemen, and they do try and comply with the Queensbury rules, they know that if they comply with what rules the virtue signallers in other countries demand, then the bastards who shot dead their women and children by the hundreds will get away with it, and do it again, and again, and again.    Which they have already bragged about doing.

So, the second group are going to do the intelligent thing and fight dirty.    And they could not give a shiit about what the virtue signallers, or the Leftist HAMAS supporters in safe countries say, as they sip their latte's and pretend that they are better people than everybody else.

Bogan said:

@ZeusAres42

This is the second time you have fled the arena after crossing swords with me, Zeus.    At least you are starting to figure out that us deplorables and bogan  are not as dumb as your elitist caste thinks that we are.

Anytime you can summon up the courage to cross swords with me again, Zues, I will look forward to again showing you the error if your ways.

Factfinder said:

@Bogan

If I read Zeus arguments correctly he isn’t supporting Hamas. He’s accurately assessing the situation on the ground where the fighting has been intense. He has even stated he supports Israel’s right to defend itself multiple times.

And correct me if I wrong but I think I have been very explicit and clear here. To me what I have said multiple times now is as simple as stating that 2+2=4. And then bogan along and repeatedly says "ah, so you think 2+2=5."

Hence my frustration and this something I find very childish.


I'm  glad you actually read and understood what I wrote @Factfinder. It's nice to actually have someone to courtesy to actually read and addresses the content of my messages.

@Bogan

I have in no way condemned Israel. Acknowledging the reality of the unconventional dynamics of this war has to be talked about openly if we are ever going to get rid of groups like Hamas. Or suppress the people supporting them who are profiteering from the situation. Extreme positions do not help anything. That said I have always maintained Israel is was the one attacked and Hamas was the aggressor. And before Hamas other terrorist groups, before them the nations surrounding them including Palestinian Arabs who settled along her borders. With few exceptions has Palestine ever sighted with Israel.

So you will have to show me where I said Israel is the aggressor. 

Factfinder said:

@Bogan

I have in no way condemned Israel. Acknowledging the reality of the unconventional dynamics of this war has to be talked about openly if we are ever going to get rid of groups like Hamas. Or suppress the people supporting them who are profiteering from the situation. Extreme positions do not help anything. That said I have always maintained Israel is was the one attacked and Hamas was the aggressor. And before Hamas other terrorist groups, before them the nations surrounding them including Palestinian Arabs who settled along her borders. With few exceptions has Palestine ever sighted with Israel.

So you will have to show me where I said Israel is the aggressor. 

Now he has started to lie about you saying things you have not saying . That's a common theme with this guy. I in no way stated Israel as the aggressor here. My message is very explicit. But bogan seems intent on finding things in my messages that don't even exist. It's impossible to have a discussion with someone like this. 

@Masterdebater

Hey Joeseph,
The definition of genocide is the deliberate killing of a large number of people from a particular nation or ethnic group with the aim of destroying that nation or group. However Israel is not attempting to kill people specifically from the nation of Palestine/Gaza or people specifically Muslim, they are trying to stop Hamas. Incredibly tragically and unfortunately there has been the death of civilians in this conflict as in any other conflict which compares to this scale. I would love to continue a discussion with you.

Hi , yes I'm aware of the definition of genocide , do you honestly believe they are trying to kill Hamas and yet they don't even know where there hiding?

Explain to me how that works?  Also explain how Nethanyahu and the Israeli government constantly call for the open eradication of Palestinians?

Thanks for the chat , yes I'm open to a talk on the topic.

@ZeusAres42

You're wasting your time with this guy , he constantly claims his opponent says things they never said and if that fails calls you a " poofter" , " homo" or " queer" a very strange little man .

@ZeusAres42 ;  What I have now noticed here and on other threads are two extreme sides of the same coin. On the one hand we got a party that makes vile and atrocious comments about Jews. On other hand we got another party that makes vile and atrocious comments about Arabs and Muslims. 

I commend you for being the most civil and reasonable on this thread.


Looks like Zeus and Factfinder are now in a Mutual Admiration Society?      You bet i make vile and atrocious remarks about Muslims, and I make no apology for that.    It may be unreasonable of me, but when a religion has a holy book which states that people like me (and you) should be mutilated and murdered if we do not convert to their vile and evil religion, then, even though I do not want people to think that I am a grump, I tend to revile them.  . But you can kiss their arse if it makes you feel superior.     

  Stop criticizing Israel  and then pretend that you support it.     Choose sides instead of sitting on the fence and thinking that this makes you paragons of virtue.  

@Joeseph

Joeseph said:

@Masterdebater

Hey Joeseph,
The definition of genocide is the deliberate killing of a large number of people from a particular nation or ethnic group with the aim of destroying that nation or group. However Israel is not attempting to kill people specifically from the nation of Palestine/Gaza or people specifically Muslim, they are trying to stop Hamas. Incredibly tragically and unfortunately there has been the death of civilians in this conflict as in any other conflict which compares to this scale. I would love to continue a discussion with you.

Hi , yes I'm aware of the definition of genocide , do you honestly believe they are trying to kill Hamas and yet they don't even know where there hiding?

Explain to me how that works?  Also explain how Nethanyahu and the Israeli government constantly call for the open eradication of Palestinians?

Thanks for the chat , yes I'm open to a talk on the topic.

I do believe they are trying to kill Hamas and I struggle to see the relevance that they don't know where they are hiding as Israel are searching and a lot of the time finding them. off course if a developed and large terrorist group tries their best to hide there would be some kind of struggle to find them.

I haven't seen Netanyahu and the Israeli government call on the specific eradication of Palestinians maybe on the eradication of Hamas but not Palestinians. However if you have any proof of this from a trusted source please send it my way.

No worries, lets defo continue (:

@Bogan

Thanks Bogan for finally admitting that for you it was never about defence against terrorism but your hate for Arab and Muslim countries. Thanks for admitting that you would like to see them all wiped off the face of the earth. 

For factfinder it's defense terrorism.
For maycaesr it's defense against terrorism.
For me it's about defence against terrorism.

For you it's extremism. For you it's radicalism. You are an extremist. You are no different than Isis!

I'm against extremism and terrorism. Therefore I am also against you.

ZeusAres42.   Thanks Bogan for finally admitting that for you it was never about defence against terrorism but your hate for Arab and Muslim countries. Thanks for admitting that you would like to see them all wiped off the face of the earth. 

 Well, actually, it is about saving my own civilisation from degeneration and ultimate collapse, caused by people such as your good self, who think that always sneering at your own civilisation and it’s culture is somehow the “intelligent” thing to do.    

ZeusAres42

For factfinder it's defense terrorism.
For maycaesr it's defense against terrorism.
For me it's about defence against terrorism.

 We-e-e-ell, my opinion is, that for you, is that it is either about virtue signalling grandstanding, or, displaying your party affiliation to your educated elitist caste.   Or, both factors together.

 

 ZeusAres42         For you it's extremism. For you it's radicalism. You are an extremist. You are no different than Isis!

For me, it is the fun of trying to deprogram people like you, who have crazy opinions inserted into your receptive brains by your peers and the media.   It is also the fun or trying to remove the mental blocks inserted into your head, which you are unable to think beyond.

 

ZeusAres42.I'm against extremism and terrorism. Therefore I am also against you.

 So, you are my enemy?      That is great, Zeus.      Everybody needs a good enemy.    Somebody you hate so much that you will do anything to beat the bastard    A good enemy keeps you on your toes and stops you from getting flabby.        One good thing about enemies, is that you know exactly where they stand with you.  Which can’t always be said about some of your friends.             

Bogan said:

@MayCaesar ;  I choose the side of deep thinking and nuanced positions, against the side of childish one-dimensional outlooks. Good enough, pal? 

alI I can say to you, is to grow up.   

You should take your own advice. 

@ZeusAres42 ;    You should take your own advice. 

Ooooooohh.    Looks like I hit a nerve.