Do Christians have a warrant to say they are the "true" religion?

RickeyHoltsclaw

@MistakenIdentity ; I'm a Christian...I don't "follow a denomination"....I live my life in adoration of the One who died for me so that I can live with Him eternally...I don't need a "denomination"....I have Jesus and the Holy Spirit who lives within me and I trust in what the Father has said.

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Factfinder

@RickeyHoltsclaw

I believe Yeshua-Jesus is Elohim (Genesis 1:1) having manifest in flesh to "destroy the works of the Devil" for eschatological purposes.

Why? "with God all things are possible.” Matthew 19:26

He could just snap his fingers and all things would be as he foreordained according his to will and predestination and foreknowledge. So everything can be satisfied in an instant. Biblical version of freewill, atonement for sin, godly will that none should parish, all in an instant with everyone understanding and appreciative minus suffering and misery at all. He could have accomplished everything without hell and still have the desired, finished effect he's working towards now. Because he's god; that is possible. But he chooses narcissism and sadistic methods to achieve the same goal. Why?

RickeyHoltsclaw

@Factfinder ; The Father is defined by His LOVE and in order for that love to manifest with purity and authenticity, one must possess the ability to choose, volition, free will, to enter into that covenant relationship; otherwise, the interaction is robotic, impotent, nihilistic.

For some unknown reason, Elohim craves "relationship" with His created beings, both angelic and human; therefore, He has made the affirmative decision to endow both with volition in order that He might enjoy a reciprocal, loving, dedicated, faithful, intimate, personal, relationship with His created beings...our Creator wants to be loved as He is LOVE.

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Factfinder

@RickeyHoltsclaw

For some unknown reason, Elohim craves "relationship" His created beings

Thank you. That's the first thing you've said that comes from you; and not indoctrinated dogmatic responses. I appreciate that.

So would you say a craving is a positive or negative asset? I know you said 'unknown reason' but can you speculate if having a craving is part of the human experience or is it an example of absolute perfection found in an omniscient being to crave what it doesn't have?

MayCaesar

MistakenIdentity said:

Not quite - you can make statements that you can take as being true, but not able to prove it. That doesn't actually make it true but you can behave as if it is true. We do this all the time with our political, cultural or sports affiliations. We make allowances for all sorts of conclusions already.

The mistake theists make is to forget that all their claims are actually opinions and not actual fact. Christians in particular believe they worship the only god which they disagree on and cannot prove, even to each other. Yet they still insist they have the truth and worse, that others need to believe the same as them.

So I will allow theists to believe what they want, but their freedom to do so stops when my own rights are infringed upon.

A statement is either true or not; there is no in-between. Whether one knows the statement to be true or not does not change it being true or not. I may not know if Riemann hypothesis is true, but I know for certain that it is either definitely true, or definitely false, and which it is is defined by the structure of reality (over which I have no control), not by what I prefer to be true (over which I have nearly full control).

MistakenIdentity said:

Well, most things in life can't be boiled down to simple math! So are you saying that Democracy is the best governmental system can only be "factually" and "objectively" true? With no caveats or assumptions or wishes and hopes?

But all factual statements can be boiled down to being true or false. "Democracy is the best governmental system" is not a factual, but a qualitative statement, and the latter are inherently subjective. I, for one, think that democracy is a terrible governmental system.

MistakenIdentity said:

Again, you reduce the world to simple math and simple facts. These systems are rigorously defined and leave little leeway to establish truth, so obviously apply the same leeway one does on religious or politlcal or economic systems makes no sense.

To me this suggests that the systems you are talking about are detached from reality. If statements about something can be unrooted from reality, then that something itself is unrooted from reality.

MistakenIdentity said:

lol - are you serious? Religion has been the biggest motivator for action in all of human history! It is the greatest preserver of the cumulative wisdom of thousands of years of human activity. It is also the most effective way to control humans en-masse from the cradle to the grave.

" imaginary concepts that do not have any consequences in this reality" is literally how the world runs, whether it is via religious thinking, military strength, political power, or economic advantages. It's all "imaginary" - heck, even money is imaginary, from your billionaire example.

Or so many people think. Yet, as we have seen many times on these forums alone, even the most devoted religious fanatics ultimately do not derive their morals and actions from religion. Ask any Christian here who claims that the god is the ultimate authority on morality, "Would you murder someone if god ordered you to?"

With the second claim I do not disagree. I was talking about people making big claims about religion while living their everyday life, in practice, free from it. Naturally there are groups such as ISIS or Taliban that take religious claims quite seriously - with predictable consequences. Although even they will reinterpret most Quran versus as convenient.

MistakenIdentity said:

Meh, I think you're overplaying things that are obviously for inspiration rather than fact - the first person to try will let the others know the actual truth. The best way to deal with religion is to point out that people should keep themselves to themselves and not to force other people to follow them.

That is not what we hear from religious people themselves. There are many religious people who claim that scientific findings are false and the scripture tells the truth instead. These things are not "for inspiration": they claim that some of them are true in a very literal sense. In the darker times one could get imprisoned or even executed in the most enlightened societies in the world for disagreeing with that. Have you heard of Giordano Bruno, for instance?

Joeseph

.

.our Creator wants to be loved as He isLOVE @RickeyHoltsclaw

Does that "LOVE" include the slavery laws he laid down for owning, beating and mistreating your slaves, who are your property?

MistakenIdentity

@RickeyHoltsclaw

I'm a Christian...I don't "follow a denomination"....I live my life in adoration of the One who died for me so that I can live with Him eternally...I don't need a "denomination"....I have Jesus and the Holy Spirit who lives within me and I trust in what the Father has said.

So you are a Trinitarian? I mean, you do you, but just curious that if you're developing your own understanding of Christianity then how do you know you have the right interpretation?

MistakenIdentity

@MayCaesar

I think you have too simplistic a view of the world. As much as we're on the same side regarding some of the worst aspects of religion, I don't think the entire thing can be easily dismissed or replaced.

A statement is either true or not; there is no in-between. Whether one knows the statement to be true or not does not change it being true or not. I may not know if Riemann hypothesis is true, but I know for certain that it is either definitely true, or definitely false, and which it is is defined by the structure of reality (over which I have no control), not by what I prefer to be true (over which I have nearly full control).

This is only true depending on the kind of logic you're adopting. For example, fuzzy logic, which is based on probabilities has been far more useful in the actual real world of engineering than the traditional "true or false" view that you're talking about. And when you reduce the world to simplistic binary statements you miss the fact that none of the actual real world behaves that way.

You're quoting essentially mathematical models, which are nice and maybe even useful but the actual reality of science is based upon models that are bounded and conditional and precise and narrow. The real world, and actual real-world science, is chaotic, statistical, non-binary and complex.

But all factual statements can be boiled down to being true or false. "Democracy is the best governmental system" is not a factual, but a qualitative statement, and the latter are inherently subjective. I, for one, think that democracy is a terrible governmental system.

Suggesting that something is true or false is very useful in many contexts but 99% of the world works on hunches, assumptions, guesses, hope, prayer and pure luck. You're missing the actual point that "factual statements" are inputs into a decision making process - and there are actual facts about democracy that demonstrate it is the best governmental system, compared to others; and if you rank and weight all the evidence, you should conclude that democracy is the best.

Bringing this back to religion - so who really cares if god actually flooded the entire planet or not: the lesson to be drawn is that god is vindictive, petty, generally wrong all the time. While you argue on the "fact" of the matter, which is a waste of time anyway since most theists accept that some of the Bible is mythical or metaphorical, meanwhile we have people actually believe it to be true, but not realizing the consequences of what they believe.

To me this suggests that the systems you are talking about are detached from reality. If statements about something can be unrooted from reality, then that something itself is unrooted from reality.

Sure, religion, politics, economics, sports, gaming, literature, music, art and nearly everything we do is pretty much detached from reality! These are the actual things that drive humans to gather, congregate, agree or disagree, to cooperate or kill each other, you know - the actual reality of fuzzy, primal, humans.

I mean, nearly all of us are trying to escape the realities of work, our eventual deaths, boredom by pursuing activities that are entire unrooted from reality. In fact, the discussions we're having ultimately unrooted from reality anyway!

Or so many people think. Yet, as we have seen many times on these forums alone, even the most devoted religious fanatics ultimately do not derive their morals and actions from religion. Ask any Christian here who claims that the god is the ultimate authority on morality, "Would you murder someone if god ordered you to?"

A lot of the time, people use religion to confirm their existing beliefs and there's a great deal of cherry picking, and sweeping inconveniences under the rug. And most religious texts are ambiguous or incomplete anyway with holes you can drive through - so who really cares about how they come to moral conclusions. The only thing to point out is that they do not have a warrant to claim anything is true. As I say in my OP - Christians cannot claim truth, only their opinion that something is true.

And you can't really argue against someone's opinion, right? Everyone is allowed to have one. The only rule is that they cannot force their beliefs onto others or insist that others follow their personal interpretations. This is how you argue against theists - not whether something is "fact" or not.

That is not what we hear from religious people themselves. There are many religious people who claim that scientific findings are false and the scripture tells the truth instead. These things are not "for inspiration": they claim that some of them are true in a very literal sense. In the darker times one could get imprisoned or even executed in the most enlightened societies in the world for disagreeing with that. Have you heard of Giordano Bruno, for instance?

Fundamentalists are few and far between; but again, who cares what they claim - so long as they do not impugn upon others' rights to believe, who really cares? And generally, they don't really care about the science anyway - they care that they are allowed to maintain their creationist beliefs. Even those creationists that like the discovery institute don't really get very far and are not considered credible. So leave those folks alone.

The only people to tackle are those, as you point out, try to use their religions to suppress others. And for those people, the debate shouldn't be about facts or their beliefs themselves, but the fact that they can't prove their own religion is true, or even their own god! For that intellectual crime alone, they should be dismissed.

RickeyHoltsclaw

@MistakenIdentity ; I don't interpret...I rely solely upon the Holy Spirit's anointing to teach me and guide me and provide me peace in the journey. Elohim desires an intimate relationship with me and with you and He is eager to teach me when I possess a willing heart to learn and to know Him. Elohim does NOT force Himself upon me or coerce me to acquire knowledge but opens the pages of Scripture to me and lifts from those pages the deeper truths that He desires I know and internalize to enhance and strengthen my relationship with Him along with sincere intimacy.

When you trust and believe and desire to know our Creator, He does manifest Himself to you in ways that human words cannot adequately define or express but "you know that you know." The journey is initiated by sincere faith in the Son, Jesus Christ, believing that Jesus is Messiah who died to pay our sin-debt owed the Father...when we believe with sincerity, the Holy Spirit enters your life (Ephesians 1:13-14) and then you belong to Elohim, eternally...you are His child, forever. My journey began with an honest read of the New Testament which led to an incredible in-depth exegesis of doctrine with the Holy Spirit as my Teacher.

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RickeyHoltsclaw

@Joeseph ; Slavery is an institution that has existed subsequent the Adamic generation...it is reality and the Holy Spirit does not seek to hide this truism in the Canon but demonstrates Elohim's willingness to work through and around mankind's decisions concerning the matter. Do not allow the ugly TRUTH of slavery to dissuade you from finding life in our Creator via faith in Jesus our Messiah.

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MistakenIdentity

@RickeyHoltsclaw

I don't interpret...I rely solely upon the Holy Spirit's anointing to teach me and guide me and provide me peace in the journey. Elohim desires an intimate relationship with me and with you and He is eager to teach me when I possess a willing heart to learn and to know Him. Elohim does NOT force Himself upon me or coerce me to acquire knowledge but opens the pages of Scripture to me and lifts from those pages the deeper truths that He desires I know and internalize to enhance and strengthen my relationship with Him along with sincere intimacy.

Which version of the Bible do you follow?

When you trust and believe and desire to know our Creator, He does manifest Himself to you in ways that human words cannot adequately define or express but "you know that you know." The journey is initiated by sincere faith in the Son, Jesus Christ, believing that Jesus is Messiah who died to pay our sin-debt owed the Father...when we believe with sincerity, the Holy Spirit enters your life (Ephesians 1:13-14) and then you belong to Elohim, eternally...you are His child, forever. My journey began with an honest read of the New Testament which led to an incredible in-depth exegesis of doctrine with the Holy Spirit as my Teacher.

It sounds as if you're doing all this in your own head. Which is fine, of course. How do you account that your ideas and conceptions don't align with all the other Christian groups that you also don't follow? Why do you think Christianity, as a religion, has so much trouble determining what their god is and how there are so many different ideas? Is the Holy Spirit teaching people different ideas for some reason?

RickeyHoltsclaw

@MistakenIdentity ; When you quote my words but don't @ with my user name, I am NOT notified that you're corresponding with me directly...your notification is not directed to me but to the forum...if you desire I respond to you, please direct your response to me directly apart from a simple quote of content? Thanks,

Christianity, theologically speaking, is the antithesis of religion. Again, I listen to the Holy Spirit and His presence in my life is more tangible than the air I breathe and applicable sensory input from the environment that engulfs me. Only those who know Elohim intimately and possess His Spirit understand what I am trying to convey to you who are absent life and knowledge that is only available through the indwelling Holy Spirit.

A true Christian born again by sincere faith has no challenges concerning who our Creator is, His divine eschatological purposes concerning Time and Eternity...we have peace with Elohim in Jesus and the Holy Spirit that indwells us is the most precious Gift ever provided humanity...He must be experienced to understand my words....you cannot possibly know in your fallen state nor can you believe because the god of the World, Satan, has blinded you.

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MayCaesar

MistakenIdentity said:

This is only true depending on the kind of logic you're adopting. For example, fuzzy logic, which is based on probabilities has been far more useful in the actual real world of engineering than the traditional "true or false" view that you're talking about. And when you reduce the world to simplistic binary statements you miss the fact that none of the actual real world behaves that way.

You're quoting essentially mathematical models, which are nice and maybe even useful but the actual reality of science is based upon models that are bounded and conditional and precise and narrow. The real world, and actual real-world science, is chaotic, statistical, non-binary and complex.

Could you please provide an example of anything in the real world that is neither true nor false?

MistakenIdentity said:

Suggesting that something is true or false is very useful in many contexts but 99% of the world works on hunches, assumptions, guesses, hope, prayer and pure luck. You're missing the actual point that "factual statements" are inputs into a decision making process - and there are actual facts about democracy that demonstrate it is the best governmental system, compared to others; and if you rank and weight all the evidence, you should conclude that democracy is the best.

Bringing this back to religion - so who really cares if god actually flooded the entire planet or not: the lesson to be drawn is that god is vindictive, petty, generally wrong all the time. While you argue on the "fact" of the matter, which is a waste of time anyway since most theists accept that some of the Bible is mythical or metaphorical, meanwhile we have people actually believe it to be true, but not realizing the consequences of what they believe.

The hunches, assumptions and guesses - of what? Of whether something is true or false. As I said, one's inability to determine with 100% certainty that something is true or false does not change it being true or false. People can make mistakes about the entity in question, but the entity in question itself is not a mistake.

It is impossible to claim that something is "best" objectively, since qualitative assessments are inherently subjective.

MistakenIdentity said:

Sure, religion, politics, economics, sports, gaming, literature, music, art and nearly everything we do is pretty much detached from reality! These are the actual things that drive humans to gather, congregate, agree or disagree, to cooperate or kill each other, you know - the actual reality of fuzzy, primal, humans.

I mean, nearly all of us are trying to escape the realities of work, our eventual deaths, boredom by pursuing activities that are entire unrooted from reality. In fact, the discussions we're having ultimately unrooted from reality anyway!

Is it? When I play a music piece, I play it on a real instrument, and I have a method for picking chords and rhythm based on what I want to express. The stories we tell may be fictional, but we have full understanding that they are fictional. Nobody (as far as I know) claims that Sauron is a real being. Compare it to claims people make about the Christian god, or Allah.

MistakenIdentity said:

A lot of the time, people use religion to confirm their existing beliefs and there's a great deal of cherry picking, and sweeping inconveniences under the rug. And most religious texts are ambiguous or incomplete anyway with holes you can drive through - so who really cares about how they come to moral conclusions. The only thing to point out is that they do not have a warrant to claim anything is true. As I say in my OP - Christians cannot claim truth, only their opinion that something is true.

And you can't really argue against someone's opinion, right? Everyone is allowed to have one. The only rule is that they cannot force their beliefs onto others or insist that others follow their personal interpretations. This is how you argue against theists - not whether something is "fact" or not.

My point is that, when push comes to shove, people tend to stick to reality, no matter what fantasy claims they make in a different situation. Very few Christians behave in specific situations the way their beliefs would suggest. When they do, the result is a disaster, such as millions corpses laying in the Moslem land.

I absolutely can argue against someone's opinion. I cannot argue against them having that opinion, but I can say that their opinion is wrong. If someone believes that 2+2=5, he is objectively wrong. Now, I will not put a gun to his head and say, "Change your opinion!" But I will say that his opinion is wrong.

MistakenIdentity said:

Fundamentalists are few and far between; but again, who cares what they claim - so long as they do not impugn upon others' rights to believe, who really cares? And generally, they don't really care about the science anyway - they care that they are allowed to maintain their creationist beliefs. Even those creationists that like the discovery institute don't really get very far and are not considered credible. So leave those folks alone.

The only people to tackle are those, as you point out, try to use their religions to suppress others. And for those people, the debate shouldn't be about facts or their beliefs themselves, but the fact that they can't prove their own religion is true, or even their own god! For that intellectual crime alone, they should be dismissed.

But the fundamentalists are the ones taking their religion seriously. "Who cares", you say? Think about what you are asking: "Who cares if people are intellectually honest or not?" I care.

Correct me if I am wrong, but it seems that you see no problem with someone believing in a falsehood or in something that lacks evidence supporting it, as long as they do not bother others. I get this position. My point though is that believing in a falsehood affects their life negatively. And I see every instance of a human choosing truth over fantasy a small victory for him, and for others too due to him being a great role model for others.

MistakenIdentity

@RickeyHoltsclaw

Thanks for the tip! I am new to the site and it's a little tricky to navigate.

Christianity, theologically speaking, is the antithesis of religion. Again, I listen to the Holy Spirit and His presence in my life is more tangible than the air I breathe and applicable sensory input from the environment that engulfs me. Only those who know Elohim intimately and possess His Spirit understand what I am trying to convey to you who are absent life and knowledge that is only available through the indwelling Holy Spirit.

Well, most of the planet may disagree with you about that point! But, I agree, Christianity is a bit of an epistemological mess. Being able to define your own god seems to be the most basic of things to get right! That said, the Holy Spirit is a Christian invention so I'm not clear where you are getting the idea of that from, if not Christianity.

Your vocabulary is neither Jewish, Christian nor Islamic, so which Bible and which translation are you getting your knowledge from?

A true Christian born again by sincere faith has no challenges concerning who our Creator is, His divine eschatological purposes concerning Time and Eternity...we have peace with Elohim in Jesus and the Holy Spirit that indwells us is the most precious Gift ever provided humanity...He must be experienced to understand my words....you cannot possibly know in your fallen state nor can you believe because the god of the World, Satan, has blinded you.

Well, Satan was an invention of Christianity too, so I'm unclear how you're really distinguishing between a "true" Christian versus the "false" ones, who were the ones that came up with your sources to begin with. Are you sure that you're not the one who has been blinded by Satan by straying away from one of the more established Christian Churches? Not that they are very convincing either but your own personal testament on what is true or not seems to a bit odd - are you following Oneness theology?

RickeyHoltsclaw

@MistakenIdentity ; It appears that you have made your choice...enjoy.

MistakenIdentity

@MayCaesar

Could you please provide an example of anything in the real world that is neither true nor false?

Yes, nearly everything that is based on personal opinion, tradition or cultural convention or context.

The hunches, assumptions and guesses - of what? Of whether something is true or false. As I said, one's inability to determine with 100% certainty that something is true or false does not change it being true or false. People can make mistakes about the entity in question, but the entity in question itself is not a mistake.

It is impossible to claim that something is "best" objectively, since qualitative assessments are inherently subjective.

Whether there is a god is a good example, since we're discussing religion. No one can prove the existence of god, or gods, or any supernatural claim, for that matter so we're all in the same boat, making decisions and concluding what is true based on our experiences and knowledge.

Obviously subjective determinations aren't objective but they can be based on objective facts. And most people use a combination of objective facts and guesses and wishes and hopes to determine how they want to live their lives. Neither of us should have a problem with that.

We should only intervene if there is harm being done or if people stray beyond the boundaries of their religion into our secular world. Which theists benefit from directly!

Is it? When I play a music piece, I play it on a real instrument, and I have a method for picking chords and rhythm based on what I want to express. The stories we tell may be fictional, but we have full understanding that they are fictional. Nobody (as far as I know) claims that Sauron is a real being. Compare it to claims people make about the Christian god, or Allah.

You should expand your horizons beyond the Abrahamic religion and try and understand how other religions work! Some of them don't have deities at all, so basing religion on non-real things is not weird. Nor is being patriotic to the country of your birth - countries don't really exist either. So people believing and behaving as if their god exists is not that weird if you think about it.

I absolutely can argue against someone's opinion. I cannot argue against them having that opinion, but I can say that their opinion is wrong. If someone believes that 2+2=5, he is objectively wrong. Now, I will not put a gun to his head and say, "Change your opinion!" But I will say that his opinion is wrong.

Again - get away from the simple math examples and deal with the actual real world of humans and their motivations. Are you going to argue with an American that America isn't real? That it's a figment of their imagination or that countries don't really exist? Or would you argue that Americianism has done cultural harm on the planet?

But the fundamentalists are the ones taking their religion seriously. "Who cares", you say? Think about what you are asking: "Who cares if people are intellectually honest or not?" I care.

Everyone takes their religion seriously! Even those on the fence at least try and adhere to what they believe is the right thing to do. And how is it intellectually dishonest to say that they're not sure whether god really exists or not but they want to go along with it? What's wrong with that?

Correct me if I am wrong, but it seems that you see no problem with someone believing in a falsehood or in something that lacks evidence supporting it, as long as they do not bother others. I get this position. My point though is that believing in a falsehood affects their life negatively. And I see every instance of a human choosing truth over fantasy a small victory for him, and for others too due to him being a great role model for others.

I would suggest to you that believing in falsehoods probably helps them mentally to deal with the mundane horror show of actual real world life. More importantly for you to realize though is that your own life is full of falsehoods and forgeries and unprovable things.

Again, the problem isn't what people believe in but what they impose onto others to believe in. Life's too short to tell people what they "should" and "should not" believe in. I seriously doubt you have a very good alternative to offer anyway.

All you're doing is to tell people to believe what you believe, which is where I come in to tell you not to.

Factfinder

@RickeyHoltsclaw

For some unknown reason, Elohim craves "relationship" His created beings

Thank you. That's the first thing you've said that comes from you; and not indoctrinated dogmatic responses. I appreciate that.

So would you say a craving is a positive or negative asset? I know you said 'unknown reason' but can you speculate if having a craving is part of the human experience or is it an example of absolute perfection found in an omniscient being to crave what it doesn't have? To "crave" seems to be a human trait so is that a sign of weakness to a god like the one in the bible? If not, why and how would it "crave"?

RickeyHoltsclaw

@Factfinder ; Craving for love and acceptance for the furtherance of intimacy and relationship is a good thing when it's in the context of wisdom, discernment, self-control void obsession. Elohim desires your love and intimacy to such an extent that He suffered and died in your place to make covenant relationship possible. Yet you scoff and mock and insult.

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MayCaesar

MistakenIdentity said:

Yes, nearly everything that is based on personal opinion, tradition or cultural convention or context.

In other words, things that are not part of the real world.

MistakenIdentity said:

Whether there is a god is a good example, since we're discussing religion. No one can prove the existence of god, or gods, or any supernatural claim, for that matter so we're all in the same boat, making decisions and concluding what is true based on our experiences and knowledge.

Obviously subjective determinations aren't objective but they can be based on objective facts. And most people use a combination of objective facts and guesses and wishes and hopes to determine how they want to live their lives. Neither of us should have a problem with that.

We should only intervene if there is harm being done or if people stray beyond the boundaries of their religion into our secular world. Which theists benefit from directly!

No one can prove the existence of the massless invisible unicorns either, yet anyone who seriously believes in them would be assumed by any reasonable person to be deluded. The idea that inability to prove something one way or the other makes any opinion of it valid seems ludicrous to me.

I do not have a problem with anything. I just say that some people are wrong.

MistakenIdentity said:

You should expand your horizons beyond the Abrahamic religion and try and understand how other religions work! Some of them don't have deities at all, so basing religion on non-real things is not weird. Nor is being patriotic to the country of your birth - countries don't really exist either. So people believing and behaving as if their god exists is not that weird if you think about it.

All religions I am familiar with involve fantasy concepts that have no reflection in reality. People believing and behaving as if something was true even when it is not is a common phenomenon, but that does not mean that it is a healthy phenomenon.

MistakenIdentity said:

Again - get away from the simple math examples and deal with the actual real world of humans and their motivations. Are you going to argue with an American that America isn't real? That it's a figment of their imagination or that countries don't really exist? Or would you argue that Americianism has done cultural harm on the planet?

Someone who says that America is not real is objectively wrong. The interpretation of the concept of a "country" as something existing only in human minds and on papers is reasonable, and if people believing in "god" admitted that it is just a convenient concept and is not something that literally exists in the world independently from human thinking, then their belief would make a lot more sense. But then it would not really be a religion any more.

MistakenIdentity said:

Everyone takes their religion seriously! Even those on the fence at least try and adhere to what they believe is the right thing to do. And how is it intellectually dishonest to say that they're not sure whether god really exists or not but they want to go along with it? What's wrong with that?

Yes... when it is convenient. I have never heard any Christian say that if their god ordered them to murder someone, they would. Muslims are more honest about it: some of them not only say so, but actually do it. Christians used to do that too, but over time the majority of them swapped dogma for practicality.

MistakenIdentity said:

I would suggest to you that believing in falsehoods probably helps them mentally to deal with the mundane horror show of actual real world life. More importantly for you to realize though is that your own life is full of falsehoods and forgeries and unprovable things.

Again, the problem isn't what people believe in but what they impose onto others to believe in. Life's too short to tell people what they "should" and "should not" believe in. I seriously doubt you have a very good alternative to offer anyway.

All you're doing is to tell people to believe what you believe, which is where I come in to tell you not to.

Oh, I do not disagree that it is, at least partially, a coping mechanism. I do not think it is a good one though: nothing grounded in falsehood is a viable long-term strategy.

I certainly hold many models in my head that are... loose interpretations of reality. For example, I do competitive ultramarathon running, and I like to think during the events that my pain is a trial bestowed on me by the Universe so I may get stronger. It is not true (to the best of my knowledge), but it helps me keep going when all else fails.
However, I very deliberately employ this interpretation, fully understanding that it is just a poetic metaphor. I will not seriously claim that the Universe bestows any trials for me. The ultimate reality is that I chose to do something that my body is not well adapted to do - and paid the price.

Again, if people believing in these things admitted to others and themselves alike that they are useful fiction, I would be cool with that. I love fantasy and cool roleplay and engage in it a lot myself.

The problem arises when one stops differentiating between fantasy and reality.

Factfinder

@RickeyHoltsclaw

Craving for love and acceptance for the furtherance of intimacy and relationship is a good thing when it's in the context of wisdom, discernment, self-control void obsession. Elohim desires your love and intimacy to such an extent that He suffered and died in your place to make covenant relationship possible. Yet you scoff and mock and insult.

Right back to dogmatic brain dead garbage. I pity you but not as much as your innocent victims. Your god is a weak minded sadistic fool and you represent it totally. You said you don't use 'discernment' when you prowl neighborhoods for helpless victims because they're all "turds". You admitted that. That's not an insult from outside, that your internal truth coming out. Why would your evil master use it? Face it, you admitted it's weak and vulnerable, craving, lusting just like you. Proof it's man made with human traits, myth. And your posts, all of them, confirm it beyond a doubt. If it did exist it would hate you for how you portrayed it after you're own lust.

MistakenIdentity

@RickeyHoltsclaw

I am just seeking to understand where you’re coming from, so I don’t understand your statements. I do know however, some of what you have described is troublesome from a theological and doctrinal perspective so I’m asking questions to see where you get your ideas from.

Firstly, there’s a contradiction between your simultaneous claim that only *you* have the right way to worship Jesus, whilst relying on the religion which you say is not “true”. At no point am I making judgments either way - I just want to understand where you’re coming from.

MistakenIdentity

@MayCaesar

In other words, things that are not part of the real world.

Newsflash - literally the entire planet in all of human history has believed in one religion or another. What you mean by “real world”!?

I mean, you must understand that even mathematics isn’t real either, right? It’s all imaginary.

No one can prove the existence of the massless invisible unicorns either, yet anyone who seriously believes in them would be assumed by any reasonable person to be deluded. The idea that inability to prove something one way or the other makes any opinion of it valid seems ludicrous to me.

You do realized that we practiced mathematics for thousands of years without being able to “prove” it either, right? It wasn’t until Russell and Whitehead’s Principia Mathematica in the early 1900’s that it was done. So what does that say about your 1+1=2?

And, to your own point, do you even understand their proof? Can you prove 1+1=2?

I do not have a problem with anything. I just say that some people are wrong.

And? Can you prove it?

Someone who says that America is not real is objectively wrong. The interpretation of the concept of a "country" as something existing only in human minds and on papers is reasonable, and if people believing in "god" admitted that it is just a convenient concept and is not something that literally exists in the world independently from human thinking, then their belief would make a lot more sense. But then it would not really be a religion any more.

It is reasonable though? Tell that to the original Native Americans who lost their entire country. And if your measure of something real is based on “convenience” then that’s an extremely low bar indeed! Here, I’ll help you out - you’re confusing the physical reality with concepts and beliefs and getting it all mixed up. You’re inconsistent in how you treat religion versus other ideas and you’re even confusing belief in religion with the belief in a country, when they’re identical things.

Oh, I do not disagree that it is, at least partially, a coping mechanism. I do not think it is a good one though: nothing grounded in falsehood is a viable long-term strategy.

You’re kidding, right? Religion is one of the most viable long-term methods to provide cohesion in all of human history!

I certainly hold many models in my head that are... loose interpretations of reality. For example, I do competitive ultramarathon running, and I like to think during the events that my pain is a trial bestowed on me by the Universe so I may get stronger. It is not true (to the best of my knowledge), but it helps me keep going when all else fails.
However, I very deliberately employ this interpretation, fully understanding that it is just a poetic metaphor. I will not seriously claim that the Universe bestows any trials for me. The ultimate reality is that I chose to do something that my body is not well adapted to do - and paid the price.

I do brain hacks all the time and they do work but wouldn’t they work better if you believed it to be true? Most certainly! And that is all that theists are doing. Do they have doubts? Sure they do, even priests but they muddle along and make the world better in their own way.

Your beef is against a very small but powerful portion of theists.

Again, if people believing in these things admitted to others and themselves alike that they are useful fiction, I would be cool with that. I love fantasy and cool roleplay and engage in it a lot myself. The problem arises when one stops differentiating between fantasy and reality.

You should know that what you perceive to be reality is also going through flawed and incomplete input mechanisms of your eyes and ears. Even your memory is faulty and your mind is mostly unconscious. Your version is reality is very unlikely to be true either.

RickeyHoltsclaw

@MistakenIdentity ; I'm simply sharing with you what the Canon of Scripture teaches via the Holy Spirit.

Factfinder

@RickeyHoltsclaw

I'm simply sharing with you what the Canon of Scripture teaches via the Holy Spirit.

You're preaching cause you can't think and don't even know what it means.

MistakenIdentity

@RickeyHoltsclaw

I understand that but you have to know that there are multiple translations and versions of the Bible. I am merely asking which one you are using? And I also asking which denomination of Christianity you subscribe to.

Why are you so reticent in sharing your sources?

RickeyHoltsclaw

@MistakenIdentity ; Translations don't negate the omnipotence of the Holy Spirit to reveal His will to the individual taking the time to read those Scriptures and seek Elohim with a sincere heart. Do you not think it's possible that the same omnipotent Creator who created the Heavens, the Earth, your complex genome, is perfectly capable of ensuring that you receive the EXACT words He desires you receive so that you might know Him personally, love Him intimately, live with Him eternally?

I do NOT subscribe to any denomination, religion, cult, sect...I love and honor Jesus and I believe what is written in the Canon of Scripture.

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MayCaesar

MistakenIdentity said:

Newsflash - literally the entire planet in all of human history has believed in one religion or another. What you mean by “real world”!?

I mean, you must understand that even mathematics isn’t real either, right? It’s all imaginary.

I am asking you to give an example of a statement about the real world that is neither true nor false. "Real world" is the objective reality independent of one's perspective. Religious constructs are not part of the real world, although human brains coming up with them are.

MistakenIdentity said:
No one can prove the existence of the massless invisible unicorns either, yet anyone who seriously believes in them would be assumed by any reasonable person to be deluded. The idea that inability to prove something one way or the other makes any opinion of it valid seems ludicrous to me.

You do realized that we practiced mathematics for thousands of years without being able to “prove” it either, right? It wasn’t until Russell and Whitehead’s Principia Mathematica in the early 1900’s that it was done. So what does that say about your 1+1=2?

And, to your own point, do you even understand their proof? Can you prove 1+1=2?

That is precisely my point: the fact that something has not been proven one way or the other rigorously does not imply that it being true and false are comparably reasonable conclusions. You may not have an accurate proof that 1 + 1 = 2, but you would be a fool based on that to say that 1 + 1 = 2 and 1 + 1 =/= 2 are "just opinions". Try living your life as if 1 + 1 =/= 2 and see what happens.

MistakenIdentity said:

And? Can you prove it?

Examining why they are wrong is what this whole conversation is about...

MistakenIdentity said:

It is reasonable though? Tell that to the original Native Americans who lost their entire country. And if your measure of something real is based on “convenience” then that’s an extremely low bar indeed! Here, I’ll help you out - you’re confusing the physical reality with concepts and beliefs and getting it all mixed up. You’re inconsistent in how you treat religion versus other ideas and you’re even confusing belief in religion with the belief in a country, when they’re identical things.

Tell what to them? That America is real? I think they know that without me.

In what way am I confusing them? Please elaborate.

MistakenIdentity said:

You’re kidding, right? Religion is one of the most viable long-term methods to provide cohesion in all of human history!

It is not a viable long-term method to provide cohesion. It has been good at enslaving people and causing them to kill each other in the millions though.

MistakenIdentity said:

I do brain hacks all the time and they do work but wouldn’t they work better if you believed it to be true? Most certainly! And that is all that theists are doing. Do they have doubts? Sure they do, even priests but they muddle along and make the world better in their own way.

Your beef is against a very small but powerful portion of theists.

Work better at what? They are cool brain hacks to apply in particular situations, but if you believe them to literally be true and apply them everywhere, then you will get smoked. If I thought that any pain was a trial bestowed upon me by the Universe so I could get stronger, I would seek to engage in behaviors causing me the largest amount of pain, and my life expectancy would not be very high.

MistakenIdentity said:

You should know that what you perceive to be reality is also going through flawed and incomplete input mechanisms of your eyes and ears. Even your memory is faulty and your mind is mostly unconscious. Your version is reality is very unlikely to be true either.

I am aware of that, and being aware of that shields me from making really bad decisions based on limited sensory information. Such bad decisions as letting a book from nearly 2,500 years ago tell me how to live my life.

Factfinder

@RickeyHoltsclaw

Translations don't negate the omnipotence of the Holy Spirit to reveal His will to the individual taking the time to read those Scriptures and seek Elohim with a sincere heart.

Yes it does. You've argued the bible doesn't mean what it says if you don't have the right translation.

Do you not think it's possible that the same omnipotent Creator who created the Heavens, the Earth, your complex genome, is perfectly capable of ensuring that you receive the EXACT words He desires you receive so that you might know Him personally, love Him intimately, live with Him eternally?

If such a thing existed then yes, but since it don't your remarks are nonsense. So no it can't. It's claimed by its minions that your elf god inspired scribes; demonstrating your god couldn't do it itself and it couldn't make sure anyone got the intended EXACT words. So you hear voices in your head and you want to love your self described masculine entity intimately? Hypocritical as much as you despise homosexuals calling them "turds".

I do NOT subscribe to any denomination, religion, cult, sect...I love and honor Jesus and I believe what is written in the Canon of Scripture.

Just another Jim Jones Christian whack job.

just_sayin

An argument I've seen in this thread is that any claim of exclusivity means the religion is false. This is a fallacy. Something can be exclusive and true. 2+2=4 is an exclusive claim, however it is true. One could argue that it would be far more inclusive if we allowed 2+3=4 to be considered true also. However, the validity of a claim, rests on the claim itself. The important question is not if something is exclusive, then, but if the claim is true.

Factfinder

@just_sayin

An argument I've seen in this thread is that any claim of exclusivity means the religion is false.

Well of course. Most strawman arguments are false by the nature of them being strawmen arguments. It's the reasons posited behind the claims that makes them false.

RickeyHoltsclaw

It would be of great value for the foolish atheist to prove Christianity wrong...and prove Elohim does not exist and publish that evidence with factual, tangible, evidence; after all, they're dying in Hell in unbelief.

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Factfinder

@RickeyHoltsclaw

It would be of great value for the foolish atheist to prove Christianity wrong...and prove Elohim does not exist and publish that evidence with factual, tangible, evidence; after all, they're dying in Hell in unbelief

It would be of great value for the foolish theist to prove Christianity right...and prove Elohim does exist and publish that evidence with factual, tangible, empirical evidence; after all, they're reveling in their ignorance until death when they cease to exist forevermore.

RickeyHoltsclaw

Christianity provides the only Path to life with the Father subsequent death of the body in Time.

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Factfinder

@RickeyHoltsclaw

Christianity provides the only Path to life with the Father subsequent death of the body in Time.

Along with snowwhite and the seven dwarfs where the true power exists.

RickeyHoltsclaw

There is no other Way to find righteousness with the Father and life in Eternity but by faith in Jesus who is the central figure of Christianity...the only Path to life.

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Factfinder

@RickeyHoltsclaw

There is no other Way to find righteousness with the Father and life in Eternity but by faith in Jesus who is the central figure of Christianity...the only Path to life.

Says the grand poohbah of the Micky mouse club. Ever try getting an education and gaining enough intellect to have adult conversations based in reality instead being a coward and weak? Hiding behind fictious writings?

RickeyHoltsclaw

Christianity provides humanity the only Path to covenant relationship with the Father; this, through faith in Jesus as one's Messiah believing that Jesus died to pay our sin-debt.

Factfinder

@RickeyHoltsclaw

Christianity provides humanity the only Path to covenant relationship with the Father; this, through faith in Jesus as one's Messiah believing that Jesus died to pay our sin-debt.

Prove it.

MistakenIdentity

@RickeyHoltsclaw

It's very important for you to understand that the burden of proof is on the ones making the claims. You're allowed to believe what you want in your own head but don't try to claim any of it is true without proof!

RickeyHoltsclaw

@MistakenIdentity ; I have no burden and if you desire "proof"...read the Gospel of John in the New Testament and do so with a sincere heart void bias and prejudice and ask the Holy Spirit to lift from the pages the Truth He desires you have...there is your evidence, it is spiritual, not carnal...

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MistakenIdentity

@RickeyHoltsclaw

I have no burden and if you desire "proof"...read the Gospel of John in the New Testament and do so with a sincere heart void bias and prejudice and ask the Holy Spirit to lift from the pages the Truth He desires you have...there is your evidence, it is spiritual, not carnal...

It is only from the outside that one can see all the individual truths that each human seeks for itself. If you are happy with your particular version of Christianity you should continue pursuing what makes you feel good.

But remember kind to others and allow them to find their own way through life. There are many answers, each as valid as any other.

RickeyHoltsclaw

@MistakenIdentity ; Thank you.

RickeyHoltsclaw

@MistakenIdentity ; BTW...there is only ONE version of Christianity....only ONE Way to life....Only one Truth concerning Elohim....aberrations are cults, sects, religions.

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Factfinder

RickeyHoltsclaw said:

@MistakenIdentity ; BTW...there is only ONE version of Christianity....only ONE Way to life....Only one Truth concerning Elohim....aberrations are cults, sects, religions.

Atheist ricky, that's what all the other religions say about you. Learn to think and you won't shame yourself so much with...

The Fallacies with The Circular Argument Against Presuppositionalism hipandthigh

The Fallacies with The Circular Argument Against Presuppositionalism hipandthigh

RickeyHoltsclaw

@RickeyHoltsclaw ; There is only one true Christianity but there are many forms of atheism... Only Jesus saves.

MistakenIdentity

@RickeyHoltsclaw

BTW...there is only ONE version of Christianity....only ONE Way to life....Only one Truth concerning Elohim....aberrations are cults, sects, religions.

This is untrue. As you know there are many Churches within Christianity, all of whom make the same claim. Throughout all of Christianity's history, including its beginning, it claims to be the one true way to worship. Yet each branch, each conception and each variant of Christianity fails to prove their unique claims on either doctrine, Jesus' specific role and even the Trinity.

A religion that can't even figure out its own god can hardly claim to be the one truth! Especially if it can't even agree on those "truths" within its own walls!

RickeyHoltsclaw

@MistakenIdentity ; There is one true faith...Churches do what Churches do...but there is ONLY one-true Christianity. There is only one Truth about Jesus...exactly what the Scriptures via the Holy Spirit tell you. It might be comforting to your seared conscience as you're headed to death in Hell in you unrepentant, unforgiven, sin but the Truth IS>..there is one true Christianity.

Factfinder

@RickeyHoltsclaw

There is one true faith...Churches do what Churches do...but there is ONLY one-true Christianity. There is only one Truth about Jesus...exactly what the Scriptures via the Holy Spirit tell you. It might be comforting to your seared conscience as you're headed to death in Hell in you unrepentant, unforgiven, sin but the Truth IS>..there is one true Christianity.

Except all the other denominations making the same claim. Oh but you've arrogantly judged ALL the Christian denominations and think only you, Hitler and Jim Jones truly understood the bible. You're as useless and arrogant as a rabid dog that needs to be put down.

RickeyHoltsclaw

It is the arrogance and ignorance of atheism the denies the Truth of Christianity...atheists are a hoard of misfit narcissists who honor Satan in their spiritual ignorance...a horrible people who destroys lives, families, babies in the womb, pervert the sexual act as ordained by our Creator...lead the naive to Hell and the fall of Nations...these are a stain on the sustainability of any society.

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MistakenIdentity

@RickeyHoltsclaw

There is one true faith...Churches do what Churches do...but there is ONLY one-true Christianity. There is only one Truth about Jesus...exactly what the Scriptures via the Holy Spirit tell you. It might be comforting to your seared conscience as you're headed to death in Hell in you unrepentant, unforgiven, sin but the Truth IS>..there is one true Christianity.

That may well be but we both know that the Bible is not only contradictory but translations are flawed and ambiguous. This ambiguity leads to the fact that each group claims to be the "one true" "Christianity" yet none are able to prove it: the declarations of truth are one sided, unproven, unconvincing and denied by all the other "Christian" groups.

Unfortunately, the bald faced declarations and quotes show your flawed reasoning and interpretation of the Bible. I fear, you are desecrating the word of Christ.

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