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  Entity Sentiment Detection: strong medical consensus    Smallpox vaccination   example   case of children  
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I don't think the medical community pushes for mandatory vaccinations for diseases that are eradicated.
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  Entity Sentiment Detection: medical community pushes    mandatory vaccinations   diseases   nbsp  
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  Entity Sentiment Detection: medical community pushes    third world countries   mandatory vaccinations   people  
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  Entity Sentiment Detection: serious consequences    Parents   vaccination   objections  
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  Entity Sentiment Detection: government control part    serious consequences   vaccines   minors  
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  Entity Sentiment Detection: mandatory vaccinations stems    objectionable stance   mandatory vaccinations   vaccination  
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People who are afraid of something can get vaccinated, and the fact that others are not vaccinated will not affect them in any way. Others can play a dice. Everybody wins, except for authoritarians who always want to control how others live their lives.
Humanity has existed without vaccinations for dozens thousands years and was doing just fine. The notion that, just because vaccinations nowadays are easily available and safe, they should be mandated, is ridiculous and runs contrary to the most basic notions of freedom. It is a nod to the darker times, when church ran everything and told people how they should live their lives.
Anti-abortion stances, anti-organ trade stances, anti-euthanasia stances, etc. belong to the same category. They all rest on the assumption that a person's body is not their sole property, and that is a scary notion indeed.
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  Entity Sentiment Detection: darker times    lives.Anti-abortion stances   anti-organ trade stances   Bodily autonomy  
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No in fairness I wouldn’t think you ignorant. I should have said the majority of cases are based on ignorance so apologies no offence intended to you.
What are your objections grounded in?
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  Entity Sentiment Detection: majority of cases    ignorance   fairness   apologies  
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No worries, no offence was taken. I pasted and copied a debate I had on DebateArt regarding this matter. I went against Whiteflame, so obviously I lost, but I still think my argument is solid. My opponent was trying to prove that our government and medical community has a responsibility to implement policies that are "net beneficial" for all of society.
-------------My argument from Dart.------------
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  Entity Sentiment Detection: medical history    case of negligence   case of vaccinations   case  
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Does it apply to everything? For example, parents have the option to go deep in debt in order to pay for sending their kid to an elite private school. Should every parent that does not make this choice be considered a child abuser? After all, they do put their child's life in jeopardy this way, compared to the alternative.
The risk of any harmful consequences as a result of refraining from getting vaccinated is minuscule. We might as well imprison every parent who crosses a public road with their children as abuser, as the kid is more likely to die to a red light runner, than to an illness that a vaccination can prevent.
The notion that benefits outweighing the risks should make something by default mandatory is so awful, I will not even comment on it. It is something from the depths of the North Korean regime.
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  Entity Sentiment Detection: child abuser    public road   red light runner   alternative.The risk of any harmful consequences  
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Sorry @MayCaesar but at this point as I spotted a weak analogy. The reason it's a weak one is due to the huge dissimilarity between private schools and vaccines. Vaccines saves lives; elite private schools don't.
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  Entity Sentiment Detection: Sorry @MayCaesar    elite private school   example   weak analogy  
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Vaccines have a very-very low probability of saving life of a given recipient; same goes for private schools. The effects of going through a bad public school, in conjunction with a number of other related effects, can be sufficient for the person to seriously considering committing suicide at some point. I would even venture to assume that more people die to suicides due to being in a bad place in life, resulting from poor educational and family background, than those who die due to missing a vaccination - but I do not have any hard statistics to back this assertion up.
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  Entity Sentiment Detection: bad public school    life of a given recipient   family background   number of other related effects  
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  Entity Sentiment Detection: number of other related effects    bad things   life of a given recipient   low probability  
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This is a strange claim, given how, for example, WHO estimates that nearly 2 billion people are infected with tuberculosis nowadays, with two people dying to it every minute. Vaccines decrease the likelihood of getting tuberculosis, but do not eliminate the possibility of getting it. Given that those vaccines can be received at any stage of human life, and people usually get tuberculosis developed to a dangerous degree quite far into their lives, it does not seem that vaccinating children is going to have a noticeable effect.
How is fining/jailing people for not doing good things a good thing though? I am all for people giving their children vaccines and high-quality private education; that does not mean the government should punish them for not doing so.
When you are talking about doing good things, be careful not to confuse good things with bad things masking as good things.
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  Entity Sentiment Detection: strange claim    stage of human life   good things   tuberculosis nowadays  
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@MayCaesar can you please pass me a link to where you saw it states that more than 2 billion people are getting infected and dying of tuberculosis every two minutes? I would like to evaluate that data.
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  Entity Sentiment Detection: link    people   tuberculosis   minutes  
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A tuberculosis vaccination can greatly reduce the risk of getting the worst forms of tuberculosis when they are administered to a baby. Vaccinations are inoculations. They are a weak form of the disease that the human body can easily fight off which in turn gives your body an immunity to the disease so when you come across the deadly form of the disease you are immune to it.
Nobody on this thread has brought up the possibility of jailing someone for not being vaccinated except yourself. Not even anybody in the medical community is proposing that. But now that you've opened that door, lets consider the following scenario. If someone is bit by a bat and they go to the hospital, they are told they must take a rabies vaccination. They can decline, but they are then locked in a room for 7 days and it is guarded because the threat of that disease is immense and it can be transmitted from person to person. Obviously this is an extreme example, but if a person is suspected of having a dangerous disease that is communicable and fatal, I fail to see the problem with isolating them even without their permission.
As far as a bad thing being masked as a good thing, it's a pretty difficult slope to traverse to convince me vaccinations are a bad thing. It's also difficult for me to understand making them mandatory for children or adults who attend school, and barring them from school if they don't comply. Not everyone can receive a vaccination because of health risks, and so anybody else who doesn't receive a vaccination is a potential health risk to those who cannot get one.
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  Entity Sentiment Detection: weak form of the disease    tuberculosis vaccination   health risks   human body  
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Take a look at these links:
https://www.who.int/news-room/fact-sheets/detail/tuberculosis
https://www.statista.com/statistics/280015/prevalence-of-tuberculosis-worldwide-by-region/
And no, I did not say that "more than 2 billion people" were getting infected every minute; I said that "nearly 2 billion people" were infected globally, and 2 people were dying to it every minute. You can look at the statistics above and do the calculations yourself.
@piloteer
Jailing is what it comes down to. If vaccinations are mandatory, then parents are penalised for not vaccinating themselves or their children, and if they systematically refuse to pay the penalty, then ultimately they are going to be sent to jail.
Your scenario does not change my position.
I am not saying that vaccinations are a bad thing; I am saying that mandatory vaccinations are a bad thing.
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An interesting piece you say at the start .... A vaccination mandate has never been tried before,.....Mostly you’re right but it was tried in Great Britain from the 1850’s onwards.
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  Entity Sentiment Detection: government interference    interesting piece   Great Britain   vaccination mandate  
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Evidence of vaccination’s effectiveness is resounding. Government agency Public Health England estimates that the measles vaccine, first introduced in the United Kingdom in 1968 and combined with mumps and rubella vaccines in 1988, has prevented 20 million cases of measles and saved 4,500 lives. Widely used vaccines have excellent safety records. In terms of improving public health, vaccination is second only to providing clean drinking water
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  Entity Sentiment Detection: rubella vaccines    United Kingdom   public health   Evidence of vaccination  
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4,500 lives saved across 30 years is 150 lives per year, which is a negligible fraction of the UK population. Over the same period, for various reasons, life expectancy in the UK has increased by over 5 years, which effectively saved millions lives, in comparison.
That said, it is not the effectiveness of vaccines I am objecting to. It is the notion that effectiveness of vaccines supports the notion that they should be mandatory. There are things that can have a much more profound positive impact on one's life than vaccines, yet nobody asks for them to be mandatory. People are very inconsistent here.
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  Entity Sentiment Detection: various reasons    life expectancy   negligible fraction of the UK population   profound positive impact  
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Why would people object to vaccination for a start ? Why would one not want to voluntarily not want to protect their children from disease? If the government was paying for such whats the big deal?
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Well, first, it is not the government paying for it; it is people subsidising it with taxes. Second, I personally have mostly ignored vaccinations offered for free, because I have a very high immunity and am safe anyway. And third, I have a phobia of needles.
Regardless, whether people's reasons are valid or not, forcing them to go through it is still wrong in my book. In my eyes, forcing someone to go through vaccination is functionally the same as forcing someone to give birth if they are pregnant: it is a violation of their bodily autonomy. And I do not buy the argument in favor of "public good": I do not care much about the public good if it comes at the expense of individual rights.
Obviously all these opinions are highly subjective, and I am just giving my take on the matter, by no means implying that my position is objectively right.
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You’re entitled to your opinion and thank you for sharing your thoughts
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  Entity Sentiment Detection: medical history    rubella vaccines   United Kingdom   public health  
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  Entity Sentiment Detection: good things    good thing   bad things   high-quality private education  
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  Entity Sentiment Detection: medical conditions    right thing   people   vaccinations  
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  Entity Sentiment Detection: government interference    medical community   vaccination mandate   interesting piece  
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No adult in the US can be jailed for refusing to vaccinating themselves, and the only real punishment people will face for not vaccinating their children who attend public school is a fine, or in the most extreme cases, their children are barred from attending school. Jail is not really an option in this case. Claiming that parents are being jailed for refusing to vaccinate their children is a blatant misrepresentation.
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  Entity Sentiment Detection: only real punishment people    public school   extreme cases   adult  
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I understand your stance on the statistical matters; let us not debate these fine details.
Regarding the bad/good thing, there is a difference between saving lives by using your own means, and saving lives at the expense of other people's freedoms. The latter is not necessarily a good thing, and, as I explained in the jail argument, can actually be a bad thing.
@piloteer
And what happens if they refuse to pay the fine? The ultimate outcome is jail, there is no way around that.
As for barring children from attending school, this penalty does not even make sense. Why should children be punished for their parents' choices?
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  Entity Sentiment Detection: good thing    ultimate outcome   jail argument   bad thing  
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Again, no. Nobody is jailed even if they never get their children vaccinated. The reason the children are barred from attending school is because they become a dangerous health risk to the other children. It's a requirement for them to attend, so if they don't get vaccinations, they are barred.
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  Entity Sentiment Detection: dangerous health risk    Nobody   children   requirement  
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I do not think you understand my argument. What happens if I am fined for not getting my children vaccinated and refuse to pay the fine, ever? A warrant for arrest will be issued eventually, and if I, again, refuse the financial deal the court offers, then I will be sent in jail.
It always comes down to sending people to jail or killing them. These are the actual tools the government uses to enforce the law; without these, anyone can do whatever they want, refuse to pay any fines or taxes, etc., with no repercussions.
Wait, why are they a dangerous health risk to the other children, if those children have been vaccinated?
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  Entity Sentiment Detection: Complete freedom of speech    Complete bodily autonomy   good thing   bodily autonomy  
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Bodily autonomy merely means that you are a sole owner of your body, and this ownership is not to be infringed on by others for as long as you do not infringe on the others' body ownership. This is the basic principle of rights: you can exercise your right in any way that does not violate other people's rights.
You cannot blow yourself up on the street according to this principle, if there is a good chance that doing so will damage the bodies of others - but you can run naked through children's playgrounds, for example, and there is nothing wrong with it. It is not like children have never seen naked bodies and will faint from the sight.
You cannot have rights/freedoms/liberty without chaos. They come in one package. If you choose control and security, then you lose rights, freedoms and liberty. If you choose rights, freedoms and liberty, then you lose control and security.
There are some rights, freedoms and liberties I am wiling to compromise on; bodily autonomy is not one of them. It is hard to think of anything more fundamental in terms of human rights than the notion that your body is your sole property. If that does not hold, then nothing does.
Full ownership of your body does not mean that you can use it in any way imaginable, but it does mean that nobody can decide for you how to treat this body. And that means that nobody can make a decision on whether to get vaccinated or not - much like, when you own a car, you are the only person who can decide whether to modify the engine or not.
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However, I do see a contradiction in your argument at the end. I mean one minute your agreeing with me that bodily autonomy should be be allowed as as long as it's not infringing others rights. And then you are saying you are advocating for total bodily autonomy which obviously implies at the expense of others.
I'm afraid you can't have it both ways.
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Aside from a few cases of judges trying to make an example of a parent who hasn't vaccinated their children and putting them in prison, the harshest punishment most people will face is having their children taken out of school, or adults are disallowed to attend school. Parents across the US are refusing to vaccinate their children, but they're not being jailed because of it. In most cases, they're ignored, and nothing ever comes of not vaccinating.
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  Entity Sentiment Detection: anti-vaxxers    people   site   vaccinations  
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