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Post Argument Now Debate Details +
Arguments
First just to get this out of the way, I am neither pro-choice or pro-life, but rather I subscribe to a secret third option which I have dubbed pro-freedom, the goal of which is to invert the standard arguments of both primary sides in this debate and show that binary thinking is not the only option, nor is it the best option. This issue is one which I feel I can debate all sides effectively, however I would like to focus on the third option being as many people have (unfortunately) never heard of it.
Abortions occur when a woman is unwillingly pregnant. Thus far, the debate has mostly focused around what should be done about the unwanted baby, with pro-choice crowd asserts that the woman's body belongs to her and thus her bodily autonomy should be respected, while the pro-life crowd believes that the fetus's life has value and should be protected legally. My view is that both of these positions are damage control, that is to say that neither makes any attempt to actually solve the problem, but rather to provide an in situ "band-aid" to make the problem, or rather the consequences of the problem disappear.
So, the problem that we should be focusing on, is not "what should we do with unwanted pregnancies" but rather should be: "How can we as a society minimize or eliminate unwanted pregnancies".
There are several options available for accomplishing this. The first and most obvious being the development of better contraceptives, in particular a male-equivalent contraceptive. For men, there really only exist 3 options for dealing with pregnancy, condoms, vasectomy, and abstinence. These methods all come with various degrees of feasibility, and each has their own problems. However, a male contraceptive drug, which would take the form of either a gel which was rubbed on the shoulders each morning or an implant could reduce the number of unwanted pregnancies by several orders of magnitude depending on effectiveness and acceptance in the general population.
There are several other technologies, such as artificial wombs and genetic inhibitors which could serve a similar purpose in the future, but these technologies are decades away, unlike male-equivalent birth control which theoretically could have been developed a decade ago with the right funding.
One of the most common arguments I get against this position is that it doesn't answer what should happen to the few who do get pregnant despite not wanting to be. I will preemptively counter this by stating my stance, which is that the existing laws are already sufficient to serve as a solution. It is not necessary to either overturn or modify Roe v. Wade to take a complete stance one way or the other.
The fact of the matter is that while we may vie for freedom in a legal sense, it is the reality of our biology which truly limits our freedoms. Only through technological development can we ever hope to achieve greater freedom and a more equal world.
Stars formed, planets coalesced, and on at least one of them life took root.
Through a long process of evolution this life developed into the human race.
Humans conquered fire, built complex societies and advanced technology .
All of that so we can argue about nothing.
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Life begins at Conception: HHS
In fact, science now confirms that "life" begins at conception: https://www.liveaction.org/news/new-hhs-strategic-plan-protects-american-lives-beginning-conception/
Life begins at Fertilization
http://thefederalist.com/2018/06/25/science-life-begins-makes-pro-choicers-look-terrible/
Pediatricians agree: Life begins at conception:
https://www.acpeds.org/the-college-speaks/position-statements/life-issues/when-human-life-begins
Princeton agrees, life begins at conception: https://www.princeton.edu/~prolife/articles/embryoquotes2.html
US Government Now Says: Life begins at conception
https://tonic.vice.com/en_us/article/yw397w/government-hhs-now-says-life-begins-at-conception
Life Begins a Fertilization, video
https://twitter.com/LiveAction/status/1068861776329093121
Fetal Homicide Laws
http://www.ncsl.org/research/health/fetal-homicide-state-laws.aspx
Abortion Video, 2013 05/23 Dr. Levantino Testimony before Congress: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8szDctI9lXM
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If you started using my body to maintain your life, I am not murdering you when I protect myself. My rights disallow you to do this to me, and maintaining by bodily sovereignty (even if it causes your death) is not murder, but self-defense.
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  Entity Sentiment Detection: accompanying rights    use of a woman   starter arguments   woman's choice  
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  Entity Sentiment Detection: woman's choice    invasion of privacy   description of the creator of all women   abortion  
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As a society we recognise that certain subsections of humanity should have less rights based on their individual circumstances. Children have their rights restricted and are in large part controlled by their parents because they are developing aren't aren't judged to be fully capable. Similarly people in comas or who have otherwise lost their capacity will often have others ending up acting on their behalf because they are unable to exercise the rights themselves.
The question therefore is what rights if any we should grant a fetus.
Now we obviously don't let born children be killed at the parents request, but fetuses are not the same as babies. Excepting extreme third trimester abortions which are super rare (and illegal depending on where you are) babies have no sentience, no ability to reason, no ability to feel pain, no personality and no other characteristics of personhood that would cause concern over its death. Functionally it's indistinguishable from killing a sea cucumber. People may choose to assign extra value to the death based on personal values like the ability of a fetus to grow into something that has personhood or due to religious rationales, but those are personal subjective values that have no bearing on the nature of the fetus being aborted.
The only clear unarguable issues which apply in the case of an abortion are the mother's wishes. The mother is objectively and undeniably having to carry the fetus and undergo a gruelling months long ordeal and with her right to bodily autonomy there should be no reason for her not to get an abortion.
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  Entity Sentiment Detection: full rights of human beings    false imprisonment   personal values   normal rights  
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  Entity Sentiment Detection: Libral Im    pain receptors   type of person   abortion  
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2. The Minor living Life is not innocent it is presumed innocent.
3. Due process takes place by a Miltary tribunal.
4. Female-specific amputation describes a united state around pregnancy which creates all women equal. Abortion does not create all women equal female-specific amputation does create woman equal.
5. Though your statement is not a fallacy lethal force is a constitutional right dependent on its state of a union to be made by the user.
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If a fetus dies because the use of a woman's body was denied to it, then death cannot be murder.
Yes, it can simply by going before a court of law under the criminal charge of murder based on the admission itself. Women can be found guilty or innocent during any trial however that has nothing to do with the criminal invasion of privacy created by the word abortion. The issue is the baby never invades the women's body even if the pregnancy is due to sexual assault. A woman is conducting a prejudice against another woman by invading her privacy. Like discrimination form men this prejudice is easily stopped when addressed directly.
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Life begins at Conception: HHS
In fact, science now confirms that "life" begins at conception: https://www.liveaction.org/news/new-hhs-strategic-plan-protects-american-lives-beginning-conception/
Life begins at Fertilization
http://thefederalist.com/2018/06/25/science-life-begins-makes-pro-choicers-look-terrible/
Pediatricians agree: Life begins at conception:
https://www.acpeds.org/the-college-speaks/position-statements/life-issues/when-human-life-begins
Princeton agrees, life begins at conception: https://www.princeton.edu/~prolife/articles/embryoquotes2.html
US Government Now Says: Life begins at conception
https://tonic.vice.com/en_us/article/yw397w/government-hhs-now-says-life-begins-at-conception
Life Begins a Fertilization, video
https://twitter.com/LiveAction/status/1068861776329093121
Fetal Homicide Laws
http://www.ncsl.org/research/health/fetal-homicide-state-laws.aspx
Abortion Video, 2013 05/23 Dr. Levantino Testimony before Congress: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8szDctI9lXM
OBGYN Who Delivered 5,000 Babies: Abortion is “Never” Necessary to Protect a Woman’s Health
https://www.lifenews.com/2019/02/12/obgyn-who-delivered-5000-babies-abortion-is-never-necessary-to-protect-a-womans-health/
Doctor on prenatal surgery: If the baby is a patient, then he’s also a person
https://www.liveaction.org/news/doctor-prenatal-baby-patient-person/?utm_content=80372484&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter
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I'm not Christian, so like most people on earth your appeals to whatever subset of Christian doctrine you believe in doesn't have any meaning to me.
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I think it is both a right and murder, a right to murder, perhaps. There are some situations where murder is justified. Abortion is one.
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I think it is both a right and murder, a right to murder, perhaps. There are some situations where murder is justified. Abortion is one.
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Still not Christian, so nothing you said matters seeing as there is no objective validity to Christian doctrine. You realise that if all you do is complain about how god likes abortion and you can't find a cogent argument beyond that, you're never going to actually convince anyone that abortion is bad? I thought you would want to effectively oppose abortion.
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I have an article here by Dr. Tomas Ryan, a professor of neuroscience at Trinity College Dublin:
https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/the-moment-a-baby-s-brain-starts-to-function-and-other-scientific-answers-on-abortion-1.3506968
As you can see in this article, at conception it is a clump of cells, and at 8 weeks becomes an embryo. It then becomes a fetus at 11-12 weeks, which technically still isn't a baby. The cells only fully become a baby at birth, so therefore no babies are being killed. Brain activity doesn't fully develop until 24 weeks into a pregnancy, and only then could it remotely be called a life.
Abortion: The Facts
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/abortion-referendum/abortion-facts
This article highlights one of my biggest arguments; circumstances.
Abortion is never decided without a reason. There has never been a woman that got pregnant by her significant other, was old enough to do so, and had the money and resources to care for the child that tried to get an abortion. You must take into perspective the situation all women are in when they get abortions. Imagine you are a 12-year-old girl who just got her period. You were walking home from school one day when you get raped. You are already traumatized by such an awful experience, and then you find out you are pregnant. You now have to tell your friends and your school that you got pregnant and can't go, ruining your education and reputation. People on the streets yelling at you and your parents for letting their child be such a whore. Your stomach is bigger than half your body, and the mental/physical pain is the worst thing you've ever experienced. You go to the hospital 5 weeks in, wanting to avoid the bump growing too large, and when you go to try and get the clump of cells removed, the doctor says no. You now have to spend 9 months bearing the feeling of a fetus growing inside your small 12-year-old body. Every day you think about the man who raped you, and the thing he is creating. At the end of the 9 months, you have already tried to commit suicide countless times, but people yell at you for it, not because they want you to live your full life, but because the fetus inside you will never get to see the adoption center. It can go 2 ways from here, both resulting in death.
You either are lucky enough to afford to get a c-section, go through the crippling thoughts of the fact you are birthing a rapist's baby. Someone who grabbed you by your pigtails and raped you. After seeing the now official baby, you send it to the adoption center, where they will spend their whole life, never getting adopted from the obvious birth defects caused by a child birthing another child. Once you get home from recovery, you immediately kill yourself. This has happened before. Congratulations! You saved a fetus from not having to go through the painful life of an orphan because a not yet existing human is obviously more important than a 12-year-old girl with formed relationships, goals, and potential.
Or, you could be part of the unlucky group who can't afford a c-section. Now you have to attempt to push out an entire baby from your maturing, small, pre-teen body in a bathtub. Of course, you don't have wide enough hips for that, you are 12. So what happens? The baby dies in the womb. The girl kills herself. THAT is murder. Not taking a clump of cells out of a grieving girl's body before it's too late.
So think about that. How quickly would you commit suicide?
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When Does a Human Person Begin?
https://www.christiancourier.com/articles/1305-when-does-a-human-person-begin
Eight Minds Changed on Abortion in Seconds
https://www.livingwaters.com/movie/180movie/Life begins at Fertilization
http://thefederalist.com/2018/06/25/science-life-begins-makes-pro-choicers-look-terrible/
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Don't even bother with RikeyD, he's clinically psychotic and untreated... But hey, you can play with this nuisance if you like, just don't expect coherency...
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@John_C_87 Again, the laws of men cannot usurp the Law of God. You advocate for the murder of children, this is immoral, vile, disgusting “ and a lie or truth.” The axiom that is GOD told me you forgot this.
A woman's right to bodily autonomy ends when she agrees to allow a man into her vagina and subsequently receives seed leading to fertilization. At the moment of fertilization, there are TWO-lives in play, each with their own unique DNA, spirit, destiny. You have NO "right" to murder that life.
My actions unlike yours have nothing to do with the control over a woman’s body. Capital punishment is not a murder, and the dangers women face are many. The child, the minor, by law in your opinion and definition should be allowed to murder a woman in order to ensure the child’s place as citizen and member of your religion.
You are not conspiring with the minor in this matter, you are not a legal advisor to the minor in this matter, your military tribunal has no life-threating vested interest in the life of the child while all religious women and men like you and I kill children on a regular basis by taking up abstinence.
FYI
For whatever a man sows, this he will also reap. I say the truth and liberty as seeds have been planted, through the words of female-specific amputation. I doubt seriously the fruits of this labor will be reaped by myself. The words planted in your mind are not a lie they mean only the efforts of the sown foreseen by this harvest were never mine to reap in the first place.
At the moment of fertilization, there are TWO-lives in play, each with their own unique DNA, spirit, destiny. You have NO "right" to murder that life and only the Devil, your spiritual father, would suggest you do (John 8:44).It is only my burden by GOD and legal precedent to ensure privacy to the tribunal. To spite your ignorance of these official matters, I do not desire or need to attend all tribunals for I would be conducting the same injustice under God as you. The invasion of privacy.
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And if we are going by your definition of life, then every time you remove lice from your hair, accidentally step on an ant, or if you ever ate meat you have murdered. Is that the point you are trying to convey?
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"There has never been a woman that got pregnant by her significant other, was old enough to do so, and had the money and resources to care for the child that tried to get an abortion"? You dont think wealthier people ever get abortions? That statement just isn true.
"You were walking home from school one day when you get raped. You are already traumatized by such an awful experience, and then you find out you are pregnant."
Im glad you came up with the saddest possible scenario to justify all abortion. Also not sure how that ruins her reputation, i mean do you think less of people that are raped? Also regardless of whether your pregnant or not youre still going to remember. A 12 year old most likely wouldnt be able to have a baby without severe health concerns, and therefore pro life position would allow it.
Regarding the developement of the baby. From conception separate human DNA is developing writing the code for blood type, eye color, the entire human makeup.
If there was person in a coma, and you knew that in 9 months they would live a completely healthy life, would you pull the plug?
You then cite these sources about development and the line you seem to draw is birth. So even though a 38 week old in the womb is more developed, it is not a person, where as a 25 week old born somehow is...explain that reasoning.
What makes someone a person?
What is crucial morally is the being of a person, not his or her functioning. A human person does not come into existence when human function arises, but rather, a human person is an entity who has the natural inherent capacity to give rise to human functions, whether or not those functions are ever attained. …A human person who lacks the ability to think rationally (either because she is too young or she suffers from a disability) is still a human person because of her nature. Consequently, it makes sense to speak of a human being’s lack if and only if she is an actual person.
And
It is because an entity has an essence and falls within a natural kind that it can possess a unity of dispositions, capacities, parts and properties at a given time and can maintain identity through change.
This is the only definition i can find that doesnt eliminate some people that are already born.
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This is a question of the argument.
Is Abortion the admission of murder, is it the admission of murder which creates the illegal invasion of privacy?
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