What do we do with MAGA?

MayCaesar

@ZeusAres42

Well, he did mention in one of the debates that he had no problem with the size of his reproductive organ - so I expect him to be very-very-very hard on Russia.

Sorry, I could not resist...

Dreamer

Argument Topic: I have to admit you are correct that I don't read everything Bogan and Just_Sayin post. Yet, I do read my own content and links.

@MayCaesar

Who has the time? I just pick a one or two of the most erroneous premises and debunk them.

Bogan

@Dreamer ; So who is the remaining of Trump's support base?

I told you but you were too lazy to read it. No wonder you think that Donald Trump is bad, and you believe in that global warming hogwash. . Do you also think that a male can magically transform himself into a female by putting on a dress?

MayCaesar

Dreamer said:

@MayCaesar

Who has the time? I just pick a one or two of the most erroneous premises and debunk them.

"Debunk"? In all honesty, given the quality of argumentation you have demonstrated so far, if you were to make an argument that 2+2=4, I would start seriously questioning that this equality holds...

You do not have the time to read what you are responding to, you do not have the time to write up a quality response, and you do not have the time to read the content of the links you post (as you have demonstrated many times, grossly misrepresenting said content)... I am genuinely puzzled as to why you come to a debate website at all, if you do not have the time to do anything involved in the process of debating.

Dreamer

Argument Topic: Why should I believe you who is Trump's support base when you are a denier?

@Bogan

79% of Republicans are Christians a lot more than Democrats. Can we agree that pewresearch center is accurate for Trump/Biden demographics?

https://www.pewresearch.org/politics/2020/08/13/the-2020-trump-biden-matchup/

@May

Bogan constantly gish gallops by introducing way to many topics at once that is not arguing in good faith this is flooding the zone.

Dreamer

Argument Topic: Hmm, interesting I thought all Trump supporters were climate change deniers.

@ZeusAres42

"And drawing a line between MAGA supporters and climate change deniers? It's like saying all vegetarians hate fast food. Not true! Just because someone supports MAGA doesn't mean they toss science out the window." Zues

"About half of the respondents in my small sample size seemed to accept mainstream climate science—the climate is changing, and human activity is the primary cause. That might dismay some, but it’s more than I was expecting. This was a Trump rally, remember." 2016

https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2016/03/what-do-trump-supporters-think-about-climate-change-i-went-to-a-rally-and-asked.html

"About half of Trump voters (49%) think global warming is happening, while fewer than one in three (30%) think global warming is not happening."

https://climatecommunication.yale.edu/publications/trump-voters-global-warming/

This has given me a lot to think about thank you for your insights ZeusAres42. I think I came to the incorrect conclusion based upon two main events:

1. Trump supporters who believe in global climate change silence.

2. The Book Mistakes were Made but not by Me.

The weather has cooled off I am going to try to take off from posting/post less. I was mostly posting so much because of the heat wave. Thank you.

ZeusAres42

@Dreamer

I have no idea whose argument you are responding to but it certainly isn't mine.

Dreamer

Argument Topic: I was responding to you Zues on page 1. I first bumped.

@ZeusAres42

Here's your entire comment I was responding to.

"

So, the pyramid analogy – it's a catchy image, right; MAGA supporters all moving downwards together! But life's rarely that straightforward. Picture a crowd at a concert. Everyone's there for the music, but each person has a unique story for why they love the band. That's how I try see MAGA supporters: united by a cause but diverse in their motivations and beliefs.

Now, onto this idea of confirmation bias. Honestly, who among us hasn't favored info that backs up what we already think? It's human nature! So, pointing fingers at MAGA supporters for this is like calling out someone in a rainstorm for getting wet. We all do it.

And drawing a line between MAGA supporters and climate change deniers? It's like saying all vegetarians hate fast food. Not true! Just because someone supports MAGA doesn't mean they toss science out the window.

Let's also chat about labeling. Think about your group of friends. Would it be fair if someone judged all of you by the quirkiest person in the group? Trump supporters are no different. Using the actions of a few to judge many? It's just not a fair game.

And lastly, about the cognitive dissonance theory – sure, when our beliefs are challenged, we can get a bit defensive. But hey, that's everyone, not just MAGA fans. Whether it's your favorite sports team or a beloved movie, we all double down on our favorites now and then. That's just how it is. "

ZeusAres42

@Dreamer

I know what I said. I don't really understand what you said though. Sorry.

Idk if you are being sarcastic, disagreeing with me or what?

Dreamer

Argument Topic: I was agreeing with you.

@ZeusAres42

I was thanking you for correcting me on an error I made in a previous post.

Bogan

@Dreamer ; Dreamer quote 79% of Republicans are Christians a lot more than Democrats.

So, according to Pew Research, roughly 50% of Democrats are Christians and 80% of Republicans are Christians. That could be true for all I know. So, what is the significance of that? You have already claimed that Republican supporters are “lunatics”, are you equating Christians to lunatics? Your point is……?

piloteer

MayCaesar said:

@ZeusAres42

Well, he did mention in one of the debates that he had no problem with the size of his reproductive organ - so I expect him to be very-very-very hard on Russia.

Sorry, I could not resist...

I doubt it. He calls himself a nationalist, but in the country I'm from, people who might actually know what Putin's d!ck looks like cannot actually be a nationalist of my nation. Either he is slavic himself, or at least he had some slavic in him at some point.

piloteer

@Bogan

Please go f u c k a dingo and let the good AMERICANS here have their discussions. Limeys from the lower hemisphere have no concept of liberty or American politics!!!!!!

ZeusAres42

@piloteer it's great to see you again.

would nice to see some of the old top quality members resurfacing.

piloteer

@ZeusAres42

ZeusAres42 said:

@piloteer it's great to see you again. would nice to see some of the old top quality members resurfacing.

Oh Zeus, you ARE a quintessential old top quality debater here. I'm just an inside agitator.

MayCaesar

piloteer said:

I doubt it. He calls himself a nationalist, but in the country I'm from, people who might actually know what Putin's d!ck looks like cannot actually be a nationalist of my nation. Either he is slavic himself, or at least he had some slavic in him at some point.

Well, I do not know what Putin is like in bed. I would assume that dictators generally are into some twisted BDSM stuff, but Putin grew up in the Soviet Union where "there was no sex", so who knows.

I am willing, for science, to test my theory on Kim Jong Un's sister. Might be deadly, but hey, without risk there is no reward!

piloteer

@MayCaesar

MayCaesar said:

piloteer said:

I doubt it. He calls himself a nationalist, but in the country I'm from, people who might actually know what Putin's d!ck looks like cannot actually be a nationalist of my nation. Either he is slavic himself, or at least he had some slavic in him at some point.

Well, I do not know what Putin is like in bed. I would assume that dictators generally are into some twisted BDSM stuff, but Putin grew up in the Soviet Union where "there was no sex", so who knows.

I am willing, for science, to test my theory on Kim Jong Un's sister. Might be deadly, but hey, without risk there is no reward!

If it's done for the sake of science, then you will always get my full approval. Kim's sister is definitely an interesting specimen to test a theory on.

Bogan

Whether or not Trump wins the presidency and avoids going to jail, what do we do with the 10's of millions of true MAGA believers?

Join them. How it came to pass that you became brainwashed into thinking that a seriously corrupt bunch of pseudo aristocrats were the Saviours of the world, is beyond me? But just in case you have not noticed, western civilisation is in danger of collapse. One side of the political divide has figured out that it does not matter if their civilisation turns to sheet, as long as they are on top of the dung heap when it happens. Look at North Korea to see that mindset and what it has wrought to ordinary people, like yourself.

Left wing parties in western civilisations are composed of two very different demographics who need each other to gain power. The loony left, who are just neo Marxists who seem to be concentrated within the non uniformed public service, and the oligarchs. Look at Russia and China today and see that, right before your eyes. And just like every other totalitarian society run by pseudo aristocrats, the left in the west wants censorship of the media, it persecutes it's political opponents, divides and conquers through immigration, and it becomes so corrupt that the guys with the stickiest fingers are beyond the law. Only Trump can save the USA from a new civil war.

jack

Bogan said:

And just like every other totalitarian society run by pseudo aristocrats, the left in the west wants censorship of the media...

Hello B:

Yet, you're more than happy to censor books and movies.. That's pretty damn totalitarian. As a First Amendment supporter, I'm of the belief that information, by itself, is NOT dangerous.. You, not so much.. Shoot 'em up movies do NOT produce shooters. How one can think it does, is beyond me. Fact is, a knowledgeable society is a free society..

excon

Bogan

@jack

I know I should not reply to you, because you can only debate with abuse and sneery one liners. But business is slow on this site, lately.

Jack quote Yet, you're more than happy to censor books and movies.. That's pretty damn totalitarian.

As Elon Musk said, I too am a free speech absolutist. That is, the absolute right of a free people, who live only within democracies, to decide among themselves what course of action is correct or incorrect. When governments try to censor free political speech, as the Biden administration did with the Hunter Biden laptop, this is the thin edge of the wedge when it comes to a democracy turning into a totalitarian state.

This is completely different to the “right” of advertisers and the creators of culture within our media organisations to enrich themselves at the expense of the society they live in, to create media which (like the tobacco companies), produce a product which they already know will harm that society.

Jack quote As a First Amendment supporter, I'm of the belief that information, by itself, is NOT dangerous..

The US Supreme Court does not agree with you. If you would like to watch a very good movie about how that came to be (because of a real life event) then get hold of the movie “Deliberate Intent” starring Timothy Hutton.

Jack quote Shoot 'em up movies do NOT produce shooters.

Children are not born knowing right from wrong. What they begin to internalise as correct or even heroic behaviour is taught to them by their parents, teachers, religious leaders, and the culture that they grow up in. Low IQ children from fatherless households, living within communities where disrespect for the law is already present, and where their only window to the world is a TV set, are very much influenced by what movies and pop stars present to them as admirable behaviour. If you keep telling low IQ young men that real men are violent men, taking illegal drugs is okay, criminals are heroic figures who live exciting and adventurous lives, and that women are just hoes who a Real Man should beat up, then you should not be surprised when they act out those values in real life.

Jack quote How one can think it does, is beyond me.

Then start thinking smart, examine the subject with an open mind, and realise that you are wrong. Then you will begin to get smart.

Jack quote Fact is, a knowledgeable society is a free society..

You support a government which wants to control free political speech, and allow the media to sell a product which will harm society. I support any government which will protect free political speech, and put additional controls upon the entertainment and advertising media, which simply wants to make money at the expense of society. Especially with our most vulnerable and crime prone members.

Tobacco companies made fabulous profits for a couple of hundred years selling a product they knew was seriously harming the health of their own customers. What is worse, much, much worse, was that they deliberately targeted kids for a product that they knew was addictive and harmful to them. But for decades they refused to acknowledge that their product was harmful. All that was important to them was to continue mining the rivers of gold.

Today it is the entertainment media which is making fabulous profits selling a product often marketed at kids which they themselves know is harming their own community. What is worse, much, much, worse, is that they know that their product I going to harm those members of society who are most at risk of getting themselves into real trouble imitating the violent antics of their on screen heroes. And you support the filthy rich oligarchs who are harming your society? And all because they brain washed you into thinking that “smart” people oppose increased censorship of the entertainment media?

jack

Bogan said:

Low IQ children from fatherless households, living within communities where disrespect for the law is already present, and where their only window to the world is a TV set, are very much influenced by what movies and pop stars present to them as admirable behaviour.

Hello again, B:

In other words, shoot 'em up movies DO make shooters, if you're black, cause black people can't tell what's real like white people can...

Du*de!!

Bogan said:

@jack

I know I should not reply to you, because you can only debate with abuse and sneery one liners. But business is slow on this site, lately.

It IS true that I whip your a** with very few words.

excon

MayCaesar

Humans have this interesting tendency to see what they desire to see when they are desperate. Have you ever met a person of the opposite sex whose looks your really liked and with whom you had great chemistry, so after a few hours of hanging out with them you came home and built an entire story about how amazing of a human being they are and all the millions of positive qualities that they have - even though you have barely interacted with the person? Have you had that situation where later they would seriously mistreat you, showing you their full colors, and you went, "Ah, nobody is perfect, and besides, it was my fault anyway; they are great!"?

Happens in politics all the time as well. Trump has been caught making the most outrageous lies routinely - lies that can be verified with a few clicks nowadays - and changing his principles throughout the day like some kind of a political chameleon... and yet he has millions of devoted followers who see some incredible qualities in him. "Honesty"? "Eloquence"? "High ethics"? The honeymoon phase in politics tends to last years, rather than, well, a month. Russians still are in love with Putin, almost 25 years after he demolished basic civilized institutions there and sold the country out to a group of loyal oligarchs and KGB officers, seeing some kind of godgiven savior in him... Should I even mention the North Koreans' attitude towards the Kim family that has literally been butchering them for soon to be a century?

Once you have invested a lot of emotional energy into trust and hope in someone, it may be very difficult, in light of evidence, to let it all go and say, "I was wrong; the guy/girl is an arse". Heck, the first girl I seriously fell for, I still try to excuse for everything she did, even though objectively she mostly treated me like a carpet to brush her life frustrations off.
But girls are girls, when they come and go, they only leave some minor scars on one person's soul. When political systems come and go, the scope of the effects is much-much larger. 8 year-long honeymoon phases here are inexcusable. If the politician is an unprincipled jerk and has been for 8 years, then chances are he is going to be an unprincipled jerk for the next 4 years, and your past warm feelings towards him will not change that calculation.

For one, I take pride in knowing that I have never worshiped a politician and excused him/her for anything. Sure, there are/were politicians who I have/had a very high opinion of overall: Aung San Suu Kyi, Lee Kwan Yew, Marcus Aurelius, Thomas Jefferson... But you will never hear me denying nasty facts about each of them (and there are), and I have plenty of criticism for each.
People who have zero criticisms of Trump and, when prompted to criticize him for anything, do it as if they were answering a question for him on a job interview, "What is your biggest flaw?" - "Oh, sometimes I work too hard"... Those people have never gotten over the honeymoon phase and are still avoiding the inevitable heartbreak, which becomes more and more painful as they keep delaying it.

Bogan

Jack blathered. In other words, shoot 'em up movies DO make shooters, if you're black, cause black people can't tell what's real like white people can...

Yeah, yeah, another sneery one liner. Thank you for confirming that you are not worth responding to. If you think that submitting sneery one liners makes you look clever, could I advise you in all sincerity that it does the opposite?

jack

Bogan said:
Yeah, yeah, another sneery one liner. Thank you for confirming that you are not worth responding to.

Hello B:

You call 'em one liners. I call 'em nuclear bombs that DESTROY your arguments in a line or two, and you don't even make it hard.

Here again, if you don't like the debate, you attack the debater.. That's not gonna win you squat. May I remind you that smart people talk about ideas, average people talk about things, and stu*pid people talk about other people..

Will you ever learn? It's doubtful

excon

Bogan

@jack ; A legend in your own mind.

Dreamer

Argument Topic: Post-purchase rationalization might shed some light on Trump supporters.

All I can say is vote against MAGA/Trump at all level of government. You may not be able to convince them due to cognitive biases and heuristics.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Choice-supportive_bias

just_sayin

Dreamer said:

All I can say is vote against MAGA/Trump at all level of government. You may not be able to convince them due to cognitive biases and heuristics.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Choice-supportive_bias

The attempt to demonize 'MAGA' is so done in hopes that people will be fearful to speak out against unethical Democrat party political positions. It is no different than the kinds of spoken and unspoken threats that the brown shirts in Germany employed to silence opposition.

But it is important to speak out against unethical policies. For example:

1) Racist Affirmative Action policies that discriminate against Asian students for being Asian. This unethical policy dehumanizes white and Asian students and instead of treating them as individuals reduces them to automatons of their racial group to treat them in an unjust and immoral fashion. The Supreme Court said this kind of racism must stop. Instead of repenting of their racist ways, Democrats have doubled down on their support of racism.

2) Extreme policies that support late-term abortion or post-birth abortion. Many leftists support the killing of babies who could survive outside of the womb up to birth, and some even post-birth. They immorally dehumanize the unborn child, claiming she is less than human and not deserving protection. At the heart of this immoral position is an attitude that ignores and dehumanizes the unborn child and denies that she is a living human being and that killing her causes her harm.

3) Even though 85% of Black parents support school choice, the Democrat party platform seeks to deny poor Black children trapped in bad public schools educational freedom. It seeks to keep them chained to bad public schools which have been bad schools for 50 years or more, even though good voucher schools are available. Rather than let parents the choice that is best for their child, Democrats want to ensure that Black children must be chained to a bad public school. We all see how this benefits teacher unions, and Democrats who get lots of donations from teacher's unions, but how does that help that poor Black child? This immoral policy fails to take the interests of poor Black children seriously and damns them to a bad education.

4) Unjust policies, supported almost exclusively by leftists, seek to force biological woman to compete against biological men who 'identify' as women in athletic sports. This is unjust to biological women because biological men on average have more muscle mass, greater lung capacity, larger hearts, longer strides, are faster, stronger, and taller. This puts biological women at a disadvantage in athletic competitions and in receiving sports scholarships. Yet, even though it is unjust, Democrats continue their war on women, going so far as to make the word 'woman' undefinable. This is literally demeaning to women - because the word woman has literally had its meaning taken away by these extremists.

5) Leftist policies which unfairly have demonized police and have defunded police departments. These unethical policies have not only unjustly demonized an entire profession they have left vulnerable citizens at risk of violent crime. And since 2020, crime rates have risen in areas where police have been 'defunded' or where they have had their ability to do their job restricted. Instead of supporting law enforcement, leftists have sought to do away with cash bail, and unethical leftist DAs have failed to prosecute many crimes. This has lead to increased crime rates and looting. Several stores have closed in high crime inner city areas as a result. This has left the residents of those areas with fewer choices and the choices they have are much more expensive.

6) Bidenflation policies have dramatically increased the price of energy and transportation costs, devastating poor families This has resulted in run away inflation. Even the ultra-wacko left-wing-nut propaganda site, CNN, reports that in just the last 2 years the average family is spending $709 more per month.
https://www.cnn.com/2023/08/11/economy/inflation-rate-spending/index.html

Rich Gen-Zs who live in their momma's basement, will rail against MAGA on their $1500 cell phones momma got them for Christmas, while intermittently demanding that someone else pay for their college loans. They fail to see that things were much more affordable and just before their racist, sexist, and costly policies were put in place.

jack

just_sayin said:

2) Extreme policies that support late-term abortion or post-birth abortion.

Hello just:

The problem you have, is that you believe "post-birth abortion" is a thing.

excon

just_sayin

jack said:

just_sayin said:

2) Extreme policies that support late-term abortion or post-birth abortion.
Hello just:

The problem you have, is that you believe "post-birth abortion" is a thing.

excon

Since Kermit Gosnell is in jail for performing post-birth abortions and never noted them in medical records they were post birth abortions, its safe to say they happen. A CDC report on death certificates for infants born alive after an abortion for 2003 to 2014, showed “143 deaths. The CDC noted the number is probably significantly higher because many clinics do not report them, just like Kermit Gosnell did not report them.

Pro-baby-killing Democrats will often use the term 'comfort care' for these children born alive after a botched abortion to indicate their position. 'Comfort care' means doing nothing - specifically not calling 911 and getting medical assistance to the child. Instead pro-baby-killers claim that the guy who was just getting paid to kill the baby, can take care of the child. The immorality in that claim is overwhelming; failing to note the conflict of interests of the one who took money to kill the child in the first place. That's literally like asking the hitman to then be your doctor.

Bogan

All I can say is vote against MAGA/Trump at all level of government. You may not be able to convince them due to cognitive biases and heuristics.

That would make some sense if the people who voted against Trump now had low crime communities, with low taxes and balanced budgets. But the opposite is true. Democrat cities largely composed of black and Hispanic voters, as well as well meaning, bleeding heart, young liberal white people, are becoming unsafe, bankrupt, and ungovernable. These cities and states are now in an advanced state of decay with the Elon Musk types who provide jobs and taxes fleeing to Republican states who appreciate them. How Dreamer just keeps chanting the anti Trump mantra and ignoring the Democrat anarchy and flat out incompetence around him is beyond me? Since he can’t debate for nuts, I suppose he will find a link somewhere to post up which can justify his peculiar ideas?

jack

just_sayin said:

Since Kermit Gosnell is IN jail for performing post-birth abortions

Hello again, j:

That he's IN jail should tell you everything you need to know about democrats loving and approving of "post-birth abortions."

excon

all4actt

@ZeusAres42

Couldn"t have said it better myself. Although, I bvb would have added that people should do their own fact checking and not rely on factcheckers.

Bogan

just-sayin quote

Leftist policies which unfairly have demonized police and have defunded police departments. These unethical policies have not only unjustly demonized an entire profession they have left vulnerable citizens at risk of violent crime. And since 2020, crime rates have risen in areas where police have been 'defunded' or where they have had their ability to do their job restricted. Instead of supporting law enforcement, leftists have sought to do away with cash bail, and unethical leftist DAs have failed to prosecute many crimes. This has lead to increased crime rates and looting. Several stores have closed in high crime inner city areas as a result. This has left the residents of those areas with fewer choices and the choices they have are much more expensive.

You get what you vote for. Elections have consequences. Just voting for some black or Hispanic Elmer Gantry because they have the same skin colour as you do, or berceuse it is considered fashionable to hate Trump, without even thinking about responsible policies, has seen every Democrat city and state become anarchic and soon to be bankrupt. Taking from the rich and giving to the poor is okay up to the point where you drive out the productive people from your community through ever increasing taxes, to pay for the welfare of the non productive and counter productive.

Dreamer

Argument Topic: You really do have extreme points of views. The fact that people occasionally agree with you shows more about them.

@just_sayin

"The attempt to demonize 'MAGA' is so done in hopes that people will be fearful to speak out against unethical Democrat party political positions. It is no different than the kinds of spoken and unspoken threats that the brown shirts in Germany employed to silence opposition. "

Just check out this absurd claim. All I did was link to a wiki about cognitive biases and say we should vote. How is this in any way a threat of any kind?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Choice-supportive_bias

Then, you proceed to make a whole bunch more bizarre claims in typical communist fire-hose of misinformation style. This is why I gave up arguing with you for awhile. It is exhausting, which is the nature of flooding the zone to overwhelm and disorient rather than convince the interlocutors.

Did you know there may be something called ego-depletion? This might be why gish gallop is so effective. When people run low on mental energy they make worse choices.

The abortion argument is a strawperson reiterated by anti-choice activists. The vast majority of liberals don't support late term abortion and those that do are fiercely condemned by other liberals. This sounds like a line straight out of a fake abortion clinic. This is all that remains of MAGA supporters' arguments cheap tricks gish gallop and strawpeople because they can't win against real arguments.

Dreamer

Argument Topic: Thank you Jack for continuing to try to talk some sense to these people.

@jack

Gonna be busy, thank you again.

MayCaesar

just_sayin said:

2) Extreme policies that support late-term abortion or post-birth abortion. Many leftists support the killing of babies who could survive outside of the womb up to birth, and some even post-birth. They immorally dehumanize the unborn child, claiming she is less than human and not deserving protection. At the heart of this immoral position is an attitude that ignores and dehumanizes the unborn child and denies that she is a living human being and that killing her causes her harm.

May I ask you if the position that dead humans are not deserving protection you also see as immoral? What about the position that humans that have not been yet conceived are not deserving protection? And throughout the whole process, starting from the birth of the mother and ending with the heat death of the Universe, at what point does claim about not deserving protection becomes immoral and at what point it becomes moral again?

And, most importantly, what objective standard do you use to answer these questions?

just_sayin

Dreamer said:

@just_sayin

"The attempt to demonize 'MAGA' is so done in hopes that people will be fearful to speak out against unethical Democrat party political positions. It is no different than the kinds of spoken and unspoken threats that the brown shirts in Germany employed to silence opposition. "

Just check out this absurd claim. All I did was link to a wiki about cognitive biases and say we should vote. How is this in any way a threat of any kind?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Choice-supportive_bias

Then, you proceed to make a whole bunch more bizarre claims in typical communist fire-hose of misinformation style. This is why I gave up arguing with you for awhile. It is exhausting, which is the nature of flooding the zone to overwhelm and disorient rather than convince the interlocutors.

Did you know there may be something called ego-depletion? This might be why gish gallop is so effective. When people run low on mental energy they make worse choices.

The abortion argument is a strawperson reiterated by anti-choice activists. The vast majority of liberals don't support late term abortion and those that do are fiercely condemned by other liberals. This sounds like a line straight out of a fake abortion clinic. This is all that remains of MAGA supporters' arguments cheap tricks gish gallop and strawpeople because they can't win against real arguments.

If you oppose late term abortions and think it is wrong to kill an innocent human life who could survive outside the womb, then why do you support Democrat candidates who do not want any restrictions on when an abortion can occur? That's like saying "I oppose murdering babies, except when they are murdered". How can any moral person vote for someone who is pro-baby-killing all the way up to delivery. You said that there aren't many abortions that happen from 21 weeks and on. While most abortions happen before that time, the CDC says that 5,582 happened from 21 weeks to birth for the most recent year of reporting available. So you support candidates that fight for the killing of 5,582 late-term babies every year. And you think MAGA people are the immoral ones???

85% of Black parents support school choice, and even most Democrats do also. Yet, you support Democrat candidates that oppose educational freedom and want to keep poor Black children trapped in historically bad public schools??? Tell me again, how are you the moral one here????

You have openly supported racist DEI and Affirmative action policies and laws which discriminate against someone who is Asian or white just for being the race they are. How can you openly support racism and think you are the moral one??? How can you advocate penalizing someone because of their race in college admissions, hiring, raises, promotions, awarding contracts and grants, and then claim MAGA are the immoral ones?? How can any moral person assert that you can know someone's intentions, values, implicit biases, privileges, victim/oppressor status, or fragility by only knowing your race? You can only do so if you dehumanize them and refuse to see them as individuals and instead judge them solely based on their race. That's racism and its immoral.

You seem to rationalize the killing, racism, and oppression you support and deem those who don't support your killing, racism and oppression as evil. But it seems to me, that you are the one who supports candidates and policies which are unjust and racist.

Dreamer

Argument Topic: I don't think this is true. Try to stick to one lane instead of multiple topics.

@just_sayin

"then why do you support Democrat candidates who do not want any restrictions on when an abortion can occur?"

Where do you read or hear this? This is news to me that they don't want any restrictions. This sounds like fake abortion clinic propaganda to me.

"multi-million dollar fake clinic industry that works around the clock to deprive Americans of medical assistance by deceptive means."

Seems to me you have been the victim of the fake clinic industry deceptive advertising.

https://counterhate.com/research/google-profiting-from-fake-abortion-clinics-ads/

jack

just_sayin said:

You deem those who don't support your killing, racism and oppression as evil. But it seems to me, that you are the one who supports candidates and policies which are unjust and racist.

Hello j:

Abortion is bad.. However, forcing a woman to carry her baby to term, is worse. Plus, you don't promote your cause by making up sh*t about how people just can't wait for a baby to be born, so they can kill it.

excon

just_sayin

Dreamer said:

@just_sayin

"then why do you support Democrat candidates who do not want any restrictions on when an abortion can occur?"

Where do you read or hear this? This is news to me that they don't want any restrictions. This sounds like fake abortion clinic propaganda to me.

"multi-million dollar fake clinic industry that works around the clock to deprive Americans of medical assistance by deceptive means."

Seems to me you have been the victim of the fake clinic industry deceptive advertising.

https://counterhate.com/research/google-profiting-from-fake-abortion-clinics-ads/

I don't know if you are intentionally or unintentionally being intellectually dishonest with yourself. On January 11, 2023, the House passed the Born-Alive Abortion Survivors Protection Act, which says any infant born alive after an attempted abortion is a "legal person for all purposes under the laws of the United States." Doctors would be required to care for those infants as a "reasonably diligent and conscientious health care practitioner would render to any other child born alive."

See the bill here.

The bill passed 220-210, and all 210 of the "no" votes came from Democrats. Only one Democrat voted for the bill, Rep. Henry Cuellar of Texas, and one other Democrat, Rep. Vicente Gonzalez of Texas, voted "present." So when they had a chance to show their opposition to post-birth abortion Democrats voted no. Let's stop pretending that Democrats oppose late term and post birth abortions. Their votes are on record.

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jack

just_sayin said:

See the bill here.

The bill passed 220-210, and all 210 of the "no" votes came from Democrats.

Hello j:

My guess is they voted no because the bill would charge doctors with murder if they didn't attempt to save the life of the fetus they just aborted..

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/democrats-block-senate-gop-bill-on-infants-surviving-abortions

excon

Dreamer

Argument Topic: The bill was redundant.

@just_sayin

"Opponents, noting the rarity of such births and citing laws already making it a crime to kill newborn babies, said the bill was unnecessary."

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/democrats-block-senate-gop-bill-on-infants-surviving-abortions

Nice link btw, Jack.

just_sayin

Argument Topic: "Our baby killing is good baby killing" - @Jack, @Dreamer

Now I am sure that the baby killing that you support is good baby killing in your mind. Much like how you think the racism that you support is good racism. However, to rationalize that it is OK for a doctor to fail to provide medical attention to a newborn baby, just because she was the victim of botched abortion, is immoral. To reach such a conclusion you had to dehumanize her and determine that she was less than a human because of the nature of her birth. If any other baby were in that situation the doctor would be required to provide immediate medical attention. That's what the bill sought to enforce. And rightfully so. It is not rational to think that the guy who had been paid to kill the baby will then save the baby's life, when he has a fiduciary responsibility to kill her. That's like expecting your hitman to take you to the ER after he shoots you.

You have to be pretty immoral to support political candidates that won't defend the rights of newborn babies. I don't see MAGA supporting baby killing like Democrats do. Sorry, guys, its just wrong to support baby killing.

Bogan

@just_sayin ; I don't know if you are intentionally or unintentionally being intellectually dishonest with yourself.

My opinion is, that Dreamer is intentionally dishonest with himself. He can't debate for nuts. All he can do is cut and paste other people's opinions, and he thinks that doing that is "debating."

just_sayin

Argument Topic: Bring Back MAGA

Bidenflation is costing the average family $709 a month, or $8,508 more a year to live.

US inflation means families are spending $709 more per month than two years ago

According to US News:

Food
In the last 12 months, the average price of food at home rose 4.7%, according to CPI data through June 2023.
Housing
Rent in the U.S. cost about $2,048 per month in May 2023, according to the Zillow Observed Rent Index, which calculates the mean of listed rents that fall into the 40th to 60th percentile range for all homes and apartments in a given region. This is up from $1,609 in the U.S. in March 2020.

On January 20, 2021 gas was nationally $3.295 a gallon, As of October 2, 2023, the EIA government website says the average cost of a gallon of gas is $3.798. That's 50 cents more a gallon. That impacts the cost of everything that uses transportation.

Bidenomics is killing the working family's budget. Time to get rid of the Democrats who made this mess.

Dreamer

Argument Topic: Nobody is supporting baby killing, your entire argument is a strawman.

@just_sayin

Your debate style seems to repeat some blatant lie about Democrats over and over. The idea is even if dis-proven will give some residual effect. At the risk of being racist from a liberal point of view, there is female infanticide which is highly immoral misogyny.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Female_infanticide

All your false claims do is cry wolf. Then, when there really is a wolf people don't believe there is a wolf.

Dreamer

Argument Topic: We need electric cars not gasoline. Poor people bare the brunt in air pollution and air inequity.

@just_sayin

Republicans since Reagan have cut social welfare programs while giving tax breaks to the rich and big corporations. Trump doesn't care about poor people. Some of the reason prices are high is support for the war in Ukraine which is much cheaper than sending in troops.

Must stop must stop this is pounding sand.

just_sayin

Dreamer said:

@just_sayin

Your debate style seems to repeat some blatant lie about Democrats over and over. The idea is even if dis-proven will give some residual effect. At the risk of being racist from a liberal point of view, there is female infanticide which is highly immoral misogyny.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Female_infanticide

All your false claims do is cry wolf. Then, when there really is a wolf people don't believe there is a wolf.

The site that is saying inflation is costing families $709 more a month is CNN - not exactly a right wing site.

US inflation means families are spending $709 more per month than two years ago

The site that points out the increase in food and housing is US News - not exactly Tucker Carlson endorsed.

The prices of gas on January 20, 2021 and for October 2, 2023 come from the EIA - the federal government site that tracks the price of gasoline nationally.

So these aren't 'blatant lies about Democrats'. They are facts. You just don't like them because they focus on the true situation American workers are facing.

I'm so happy you think female infanticide is 'highly immoral misogyny'. It's also murder. But one step at a time in your journey of what is moral. Did you know that the majority of babies aborted are female? I wonder if you will apply 'misogyny' to that fact.

You spoke of tribalism regarding MAGA, but time and time again, you are the one showing tribalism by standing with 'your team' when they engage in racism, baby killing, sexism, and oppression. You have even argued that 'Christians' are the problem with MAGA which is an extremely religiously bigoted line of argumentation. You seem to rationalize many unjust positions because that's what 'your team' stands for. Could it possibly be that MAGA is not as evil as you think, and you are not as pure as you believe?

Bogan

Sock it to him, just-sayin. On another topic, Dreamer claimed it was Trump who had increased household spending. I don't think that this guy even lives on earth. I think he must be sending these texts from a parallel universe.

MayCaesar

Dreamer said:

Trump doesn't care about poor people.

When people make statements like this, I always wonder if it is their intellect, or their body talking. It is hard for me to imagine what objective evidence one would have to really make a qualified assertion that "Trump doesn't care about poor people". No matter what you think about the guy's character, or his policies, or truthfulness of his claims - have you peered so deep into his mind and soul that you can conclude that the plight of poor people does not move him even an inch? That he is some kind of a Frankenstein of empathy?

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