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Is what was once considered corporal punishment now known as what could be child abuse?

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Based on some stories I have heard about the kind of punishment the elder generations experienced with regard to what was known as corporal punishment I cannot help but view this as child abuse. There are also multiple research studies on how corporal punishment is ineffective and ultimately detrimental to a child's development.

What do you think?



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  • all4acttall4actt 227 Pts   -  
    I think "Corpral Punishment" is a matter of perspective.  What do you consider Corpral punishment?
  • all4actt said:
    I think "Corpral Punishment" is a matter of perspective.  What do you consider Corpral punishment?
    Using the Cain, flogging, etc.



  • TKDBTKDB 692 Pts   -  
    Is giving an intolerant child, a spanking, corpral punishment?
     
    I've heard, various adults express, that giving a child, an appropriate spanking, helped to get their attitude problem, sorted out.

    Why should the rest of society have to put up with an intolerant child, because a parent, neglected to discipline their intolerant acting child, while they were raising them, to begin with? 
  • MayCaesarMayCaesar 3819 Pts   -  
    Violence is violence. I am perplexed by the opinion of some people that applying violence to a strong mature male is unacceptable, but applying violence to a little sensitive child is acceptable. It is about as backwards a view as it gets.

    In the past, wives were just as disciplined with violence. Luckily, we are past that, at least, as people finally realised that, perhaps, "I love you, honey" is incompatible with beatings. Strangely enough, they have difficulty applying the same common sense to interaction with their children.

    I am fairly strict in this regard; if I hear that my good friend spanks his/her child regularly, he/she ceases to be my good friend. But I generally associate with people who are a little bit better at parenting than this, so this never comes up.
    ZeusAres42Zombieguy1987qwerrtyTreeMan
  • PlaffelvohfenPlaffelvohfen 2506 Pts   -  
    Corporal punishment was always child abuse, but child abuse (or abuse in general really) was not a concern to the general public... The rationale behind this was (and still is) explicitly religious in essence... The creator of the universe himself told us not to spare the rod less we spoil the child (Proverb 13, 20 & 23?), it was a "family matter" and back then people rarely involved themselves in such... It was not restricted to "child" abuse either, wives were regularly beaten too, some still are... Still today, corporal punishment is legal, as of 2018, corporal punishment is still legal in private schools in every U.S. state except New Jersey and Iowa, legal in public schools in nineteen states (the list won't surprise anyone imo), permitted in eighteen, and practiced in fifteen.

    But we can ask the question, is it a good idea to subject children to pain, violence and humiliation as a good way to encourage healthy emotional development and good behavior?? I don't think so... 
    CYDdhartaZeusAres42Zombieguy1987qwerrtyTreeMan
    " Adversus absurdum, contumaciter ac ridens! "
  • TKDBTKDB 692 Pts   -   edited October 2019
    @Plaffelvohfen

    @MayCaesar


    Gun violence is child abuse.

    Bullying is child abuse.

    Domestic violence, and spouse abuse, is child abuse.

    The Illegal immigrants bringing kids, into the U.S. illegally, is child abuse.

    Those drug addict parents, using drugs around their own kids, and families, is child abuse.

    Pregnant mothers who use marijuana while they are carrying a baby, is child abuse.

    17-19 year olds, killing kids, and students, with guns, is child abuse. 


  • @Plaffelvohfen

    Are you also referring to schools when talking about corporal punishment being legal?



  • 대왕광개토대왕광개토 233 Pts   -  
    Based on my experience, corporal punishment is not effective in controlling students' behavior. When I was an elementary school student, corporal punishment was taking place at my school as if it was the school's tradition. Many teachers(though there were some teachers who never inflicted corporal punishment on students) used sticks to hit the students who either didn't pay attention or showed defiance. Contrary to the teachers' expectations, however, students became even more defiant and aggressive. Those who were often targeted by corporal punishment were not afraid of being punished. In my opinion, corporal punishment serves not as a powerful behavior controlling tool but only as an exciting challenge to troublemakers. 
    qwerrtyTreeMan
  • YeshuaBoughtYeshuaBought 669 Pts   -  
    Spanking is not child abuse. Disobedient children deserve to be spanked.
    Zombieguy1987ZeusAres42anarchist100TreeMan
  • all4acttall4actt 227 Pts   -  
    I personally as a general practice never raied my hands to my children.  There were a couple of occassions where I found it necessary with my older child when he was a teen. He is bi-polar so he had his moments when he lost control.  A couple of times it happened while I was driving down the freeway.  With no way to pull over I reached over and slapped him across the face.  It stopped him immediately both times.  He stopped because he was so shocked I had hit him.  All he could say was "You hit me.  I can't believe you hit me."  Now had I used that type of punishment throughout thier childhood I don't think it would have been as affective when he was a teen.  There are so many other ways that are not violent to dter a childs behavior that capital punishment for me was never the goto choice.  As for my bi-polar child generally I would place my child in a basket hold until he calmed enough to where I could get him to a point where he could be sat down or sent to my childs room and start his self calming techniques.  He was difficult but I don't think spanking would have helped.  Infact if spanking or slapping my child had been my goto it may have made things worse and not have been as affective in the car.
  • YeshuaBoughtYeshuaBought 669 Pts   -  
    @all4actt Why did you have children, if you refuse to raise them properly?
  • all4acttall4actt 227 Pts   -  
    @YeshuaBoug

    Excuse me.  What makes you think I did not raise thiem properly.
  • YeshuaBoughtYeshuaBought 669 Pts   -  
    @all4actt Lazy parents refuse to spank children.
    TKDBall4acttqwerrtyTreeMan
  • all4acttall4actt 227 Pts   -  
    @YeshuaBought

    I would argue lazy parents are the ones who use spanking as their goto punishment.  It takes a lot more work to put a child in time out and make sure they follow through on an alternative punishment. Then it is to just smack them.
    ZeusAres42TKDBTreeMan
  • YeshuaBoughtYeshuaBought 669 Pts   -  
    @all4actt Disobedient children deserve to have boundaries, and be spanked. It should be legal, end of story.
    TKDB
  • all4acttall4actt 227 Pts   -  
    @YeshuaBought

    Disobidiant children do need punishment. I don't disagree.  All children should have boundries.  My children would attest to the fact that they had boundries and I was very often accused of being strict by some people.  I am proud to say I was able to accomplish re-enforcing those boundries without resorting to spanking.  It took more work and patients then just spanking them would have but it worked just the same without them resorting to violence.
    ZeusAres42TreeMan
  • PlaffelvohfenPlaffelvohfen 2506 Pts   -  
    @Plaffelvohfen

    Are you also referring to schools when talking about corporal punishment being legal?
    Yes, take a look at the link in my previous comment.
    ZeusAres42
    " Adversus absurdum, contumaciter ac ridens! "
  • @Plaffelvohfen

    Are you also referring to schools when talking about corporal punishment being legal?
    Yes, take a look at the link in my previous comment.
    Sorry, didn't read the whole post properly. Anyway, didn't know that about Private Schools in the USA. I think it's not used in State Schools any more though in the USA right?

    On another note, I do know that Corporal Punishment became abolished in the UK decades ago, and rightly, so I say. Beating a child because you could no longer tolerate them/lost your patience is indeed child abuse. There are also legal safeguards in place within the UK regarding spotting the signs of child abuse and that includes physical abuse.

    It also makes sense what you said about this being somewhat religious in essence too. A lot of the abuse (once known as corporal punishment, at least as also justified by the individuals committing the abuse) rested on some religious ideologies too; the catholic convent schools come to mind!


    PlaffelvohfenTreeMan



  • TKDBTKDB 692 Pts   -  
    @대왕광개토

    @ZeusAres42

    @MayCaesar

    @Plaffelvohfen

    Is giving an intolerant child, a spanking, corpral punishment?
     
    I've heard, various adults express, that giving a child, an appropriate spanking, helped to get their attitude problem, sorted out.

    Why should the rest of society have to put up with an intolerant child, because a parent, neglected to discipline their intolerant acting child, while they were raising them, to begin with?  
    TreeMan
  • all4actt said:
    @YeshuaBought

    Disobidiant children do need punishment. I don't disagree.  All children should have boundries.  My children would attest to the fact that they had boundries and I was very often accused of being strict by some people.  I am proud to say I was able to accomplish re-enforcing those boundries without resorting to spanking.  It took more work and patients then just spanking them would have but it worked just the same without them resorting to violence.
    Good for you. 



  • MayCaesarMayCaesar 3819 Pts   -  
    @TKDB

    And I have heard that giving an adult an appropriate beating can sometimes fix their drinking problem. Only I do not walk around beating people who appear to be drunk, because it justly is considered a violation of human rights, and I will be apprehended if I try to do so.

    For some reason, however, the rights of children, the most vulnerable humans of all, are often ignored in this regard. Parents treat their children as their property, and throw a fit every time someone tells them that they should change their parenting habits.

    I was lucky in that I had a loving family, where violence was not a thing. Oh, I was a very misbehaving kid. But my parents found ways to reach out to me without losing their cool. They would talk to me, make me aware of my psychology and explain why what I was doing was not a good idea.
    I will never apply violence to anyone, for any reason, other than to defend someone from violence. Violence is the last resort, when everything else has failed to work. Violence is not an answer when you have not even tried anything else; it is instead a manifestation of one's laziness and immaturity, their inability to deal with their emotions. And if you cannot deal with your own emotions, then what business do you have tackling your child's?
    대왕광개토PlaffelvohfenZeusAres42anarchist100TreeMan
  • TKDBTKDB 692 Pts   -   edited October 2019
    @MayCaesar

    I'm pro family, pro Public safety, and pro law.

    So why not pose your questions, to the below offending abusers?

    Gun violence is child abuse.
    (What about those kids rights?)

    Bullying is child abuse.
    (What about those kids rights?)

    Domestic violence, and spouse abuse, is child abuse.
    (What about those kids rights?)

    The Illegal immigrants bringing kids, into the U.S. illegally, is child abuse.
    (What about those kids rights?)

    Those drug addict parents, using drugs around their own kids, and families, is child abuse.
    (What about those kids rights?)

    Pregnant mothers who use marijuana while they are carrying a baby, is child abuse.
    (What about those kids rights?)

    17-19 year olds, killing kids, and students, with guns, is child abuse.  
    (What about those kids rights?)

    I mentioned to you the above, and you didn't raise a single counter argument to any of them, yet, the below from you is your apparent preception? 

    "For some reason, however, the rights of children, the most vulnerable humans of all, are often ignored in this regard. Parents treat their children as their property, and throw a fit every time someone tells them that they should change their parenting habits.

    I was lucky in that I had a loving family, where violence was not a thing. Oh, I was a very misbehaving kid. But my parents found ways to reach out to me without losing their cool. They would talk to me, make me aware of my psychology and explain why what I was doing was not a good idea.
    I will never apply violence to anyone, for any reason, other than to defend someone from violence. Violence is the last resort, when everything else has failed to work. Violence is not an answer when you have not even tried anything else; it is instead a manifestation of one's laziness and immaturity, their inability to deal with their emotions. And if you cannot deal with your own emotions, then what business do you have tackling your child's?"


    대왕광개토TreeMan
  • MayCaesarMayCaesar 3819 Pts   -  
    @TKDB

    So your argument is, "Spanking is not the only form of child abuse, hence it is okay"? It is not a very strong one, you realise.

    As for kids brought to the US illegally, they are actually better off this way, than if they stayed back in their home countries. Do you know what life in Haiti or Gonduras is like? Nobody would wish to grow up there over the US. The kids are incredibly lucky that their parents choose to go through unbelievable sacrifices in order to give them a better childhood than they themselves had.
    ZeusAres42PlaffelvohfenTKDBTreeMan
  • TKDBTKDB 692 Pts   -   edited October 2019
    When it comes to a Bipolar child, I've yet to hear of any Nationwide news stories, where a Bipolar child, has been spanked?

    I believe, that there is a very big difference between an intolerant child, or a Bipolar child, or a child who has ADD, or ADHD? 


    @MayCaesar

    Spanking an intolerant child isn't corpral punishment.

    How many kids across the country, are being raised by a single mom, because the dad on purpose, isn't in the kids life?

    Where the dad isn't in the kids life sometimes, because, the dad spends an unfair amount of time, getting into trouble with the law, or the dad, didn't want to be a dad to begin with, before making a baby, with a lady? 

    Or how many kids, are being raised by a single dad, and the mom on purpose, isn't in the kids life? 


    As long as the spanking of a child, (outside of discipline) isn't abusing the child?

    Child Protective Services, typically gets called for child abuse don't they?

    Educate the Public, on how many child abuse cases there are in regards to the "disciplinary spanking" of a child?

    The above is my argument, the below is how you individually engineered your individual argument:

    "So your argument is, "Spanking is not the only form of child abuse, hence it is okay"? It is not a very strong one, you realise.

    "As for kids brought to the US illegally, they are actually better off this way, than if they stayed back in their home countries. Do you know what life in Haiti or Gonduras is like? Nobody would wish to grow up there over the US. The kids are incredibly lucky that their parents choose to go through unbelievable sacrifices in order to give them a better childhood than they themselves had."

    @MayCaesar

    The Illegal immigrants bringing kids, into the U.S. illegally, is child abuse.
    (What about those kids rights?)

    Kids are being rented to help other illegal immigrants or aliens, get into the United States illegally? 
    Sounds to me like a new form of Child Slavery? 
    대왕광개토TreeMan
  • PlaffelvohfenPlaffelvohfen 2506 Pts   -   edited October 2019
    Spanking and other corporal punishment are an admission of failure, a loss of control on the parent's part. 

    Spanking undermines trust. Spanked children trust their parents less. They are more likely to step back from the relationship and build a self-protective shield around themselves in terms of relationships generally. Children may learn to mistrust the motives of others and become more threat-reactive in social situations.

    Spanking does not convey positive guidance on how to behave in a particular situation, only how not to behave if a threat of punishment is at hand. 

    Seriously, conditioning a child with pain?? Barbaric...
    ZeusAres42all4acttTKDBTreeMan
    " Adversus absurdum, contumaciter ac ridens! "
  • Spanking and other corporal punishment are an admission of failure, a loss of control on the parent's part. 

    Spanking undermines trust. Spanked children trust their parents less. They are more likely to step back from the relationship and build a self-protective shield around themselves in terms of relationships generally. Children may learn to mistrust the motives of others and become more threat-reactive in social situations.

    Spanking does not convey positive guidance on how to behave in a particular situation, only how not to behave if a threat of punishment is at hand. 

    Seriously, conditioning a child with pain?? Barbaric...
    In regard to corporal punishment again, isn't that banned though in state schools, and elementary schools? I myself have never heard state and elementary schools in the USA incorporating corporal punishment, at least in recent years anyway.

    Also, in addition to corporal punishment being banned in the UK I'm pretty sure it's banned in most other parts of the EU now too. Also, if I remember correctly it was once researched that development and education standards were very high in either Switcherland or Sweden where Corporal punishment had been banned for decades. Just goes to show doesn't it?
    Plaffelvohfen



  • Furthermore, spanking a child because you could not tolerate them and got angry with them is not discipline in any sense of the word; its physical abuse, and totally unacceptable. Period.
    Plaffelvohfenall4acttTreeMan



  • TKDBTKDB 692 Pts   -   edited October 2019
    @Plaffelvohfen

    https://www-cbsnews-com.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/www.cbsnews.com/amp/news/joaquin-arambula-california-state-assemblyman-arrested-released-spanking-daughter/?amp_js_v=a2&amp_gsa=1&usqp=mq331AQCKAE=#aoh=15711788294251&referrer=https://www.google.com&amp_tf=From %1$s&ampshare=https://www.cbsnews.com/news/joaquin-arambula-california-state-assemblyman-arrested-released-spanking-daughter/. 

    "California state assemblyman arrested after daughter reports spanking to teacher"

    DECEMBER 14, 2018 / 7:45 AM / CBS NEWS

    "A California lawmaker accused of child cruelty is speaking out, saying he intended to discipline his 7-year-old daughter with a spanking. The children of State Assemblyman Joaquin Arambula, now home with his three children, were briefly removed by Child Protective Services.

    Spanking your child is legal in all 50 states, reports CBS News correspondent Jericka Duncan. But if it crosses the line into "cruelty" or "abuse," it becomes a crime with potentially harsh punishments for the parent involved.

    When Arambula was sworn in as a California state assemblyman two years ago, his wife and three young daughters were at his side. Arambula was arrested earlier this week. He said he spanked his eldest child who told her teacher the next morning."

    @Plaffelvohfen

    I had to look this up.

    So please enlighten me, with more of your Opinion? 

  • TKDBTKDB 692 Pts   -  
    @ZeusAres42

    Tell me more about your Opinion?

    https://www-cbsnews-com.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/www.cbsnews.com/amp/news/joaquin-arambula-california-state-assemblyman-arrested-released-spanking-daughter/?amp_js_v=a2&amp_gsa=1&usqp=mq331AQCKAE=#aoh=15711788294251&referrer=https://www.google.com&amp_tf=From %1$s&ampshare=https://www.cbsnews.com/news/joaquin-arambula-california-state-assemblyman-arrested-released-spanking-daughter/

    "California state assemblyman arrested after daughter reports spanking to teacher"

    DECEMBER 14, 2018 / 7:45 AM / CBS NEWS

    "A California lawmaker accused of child cruelty is speaking out, saying he intended to discipline his 7-year-old daughter with a spanking. The children of State Assemblyman Joaquin Arambula, now home with his three children, were briefly removed by Child Protective Services.

    Spanking your child is legal in all 50 states, reports CBS News correspondent Jericka Duncan. But if it crosses the line into "cruelty" or "abuse," it becomes a crime with potentially harsh punishments for the parent involved.

    When Arambula was sworn in as a California state assemblyman two years ago, his wife and three young daughters were at his side. Arambula was arrested earlier this week. He said he spanked his eldest child who told her teacher the next morning."

    ZeusAres42
  • TKDB said:
    @Plaffelvohfen

    https://www-cbsnews-com.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/www.cbsnews.com/amp/news/joaquin-arambula-california-state-assemblyman-arrested-released-spanking-daughter/?amp_js_v=a2&amp_gsa=1&usqp=mq331AQCKAE=#aoh=15711788294251&referrer=https://www.google.com&amp_tf=From %1$s&ampshare=https://www.cbsnews.com/news/joaquin-arambula-california-state-assemblyman-arrested-released-spanking-daughter/. 

    "California state assemblyman arrested after daughter reports spanking to teacher"

    DECEMBER 14, 2018 / 7:45 AM / CBS NEWS

    "A California lawmaker accused of child cruelty is speaking out, saying he intended to discipline his 7-year-old daughter with a spanking. The children of State Assemblyman Joaquin Arambula, now home with his three children, were briefly removed by Child Protective Services.

    Spanking your child is legal in all 50 states, reports CBS News correspondent Jericka Duncan. But if it crosses the line into "cruelty" or "abuse," it becomes a crime with potentially harsh punishments for the parent involved.

    When Arambula was sworn in as a California state assemblyman two years ago, his wife and three young daughters were at his side. Arambula was arrested earlier this week. He said he spanked his eldest child who told her teacher the next morning."

    @Plaffelvohfen

    I had to look this up, because some want teach through their Opinion, instead of with supported facts. 

    Just because a legal authority has deemed something legal doesn't make it justified. It used to be legal in the UK a few hundred years ago to burn witches at the stake. Fortunately, we've moved on. You should try doing the same perhaps?
    Plaffelvohfenall4actt



  • Anyway, let's be clear what was once considered corporal punishment: Using the Cain, belt, ruler, pinching etc. It's sad really; I'm also reminded of some horrendous stories told me by older generations and I often wonder if that contributed to some of their lack of confidence and depression in later years. :(



  • PlaffelvohfenPlaffelvohfen 2506 Pts   -  
    In regard to corporal punishment again, isn't that banned though in state schools, and elementary schools? I myself have never heard state and elementary schools in the USA incorporating corporal punishment, at least in recent years anyway. 
    As of 2018, it is legal in public schools in 19 states (good read here), permitted in 18, and yes practiced in 15... Over 160,000 children in these states are subject to corporal punishment in public schools each year. 

    A typical state definition of school corporal punishment is the one offered in the Texas Education Code, which specifies permissible corporal punishment as, “…the deliberate infliction of physical pain by hitting, paddling, spanking, slapping, or any other physical force used as a means of discipline.” (Texas Education Code, 2013)

    The Texas code thus allows school personnel to hit children with objects (“paddling”) and to use “any other physical force” to control children, as long as it is in the name of discipline.

    Isn't being civilized great? God bless Murika!!  :cookie:  

    ZeusAres42
    " Adversus absurdum, contumaciter ac ridens! "
  • TKDBTKDB 692 Pts   -  
    @Plaffelvohfen

    Does it upset you when parents discipline their kids, in public?

    I've seen parents doing that before, and it didn't look upsetting to me at all.

    And I would guess, that if others viewed a child being spanked by their parents, they could have called the Police, or CPS, if they thought, that they were seeing a child being abused, by a disciplinary spanking? 
    ZeusAres42Plaffelvohfen
  • all4acttall4actt 227 Pts   -  
    I don't understand why anybody thinks that hitting a child is a good way to discaplin them.  Most  reasonable people don't want their children hitting or  physically fighting other people when they see someone behaving in a way that offends their childs sense of right and wrong.  So how can they then justify doing that to their child.  Isn't that what they are teaching their children?  Are they not teaching them that the way you deal with people that are behaving badly is  hitting them as the best way of solving a problem or correcting behavior?  Or is it a, "Do as I say. Not as I do." Type of thing?


    ZeusAres42PlaffelvohfenTKDB
  • TKDBTKDB 692 Pts   -   edited October 2019
    @all4actt

    Should an unruly child be able to walk all over their parents?

    How many times, should a parent, or parents, neglect to be a "parent or parents, to their child, instead of maybe pandering, coddling, or babying their child, by allowing their child, to treat them like garbage, in their own home, or in public?


    PlaffelvohfenZeusAres42
  • all4acttall4actt 227 Pts   -  
    @TKDB

    I never allowed my children to act like little monsters in puplic.  As everyone now knows I had one very difficult child and he had been known to throw tantrums in puplic.  Rather than smacking him I would quickly escourt him away from the puplic and get him under control.  Luckily he never went after anyone or destroyed anything but that was more that I was always close by and quick to act.  I also knew when he was having a bad day and I would rearrange things around so he would stay home.  In other words it is a parents responsibility to make sure their children are not disruptive.  How would spnking them make anything better for the people around them.  Now my other children never did throw fits or act disruptive in puplic.  I never spanked them either.  

    I didn't allow my children to walk all over me.  Not to say there weren't times where they didn't try and challenge me but all kids do that.  Most of the time a simple explanation as to what the consequences would be if they chose to continue was enough.

    If a child is being "unruly" it is the parents responsibility to control that behavior.  I just have never found that hitting my children was neccessary except in the two incident while I was driving with my eldest.  

    If a child is walking all over their parent I believe that is a parenting issue.  

    I don't believe hitting a child encourages respect.  Fear, resenment and sometimes even  disrespect of the parent (even if it is in silence).  

    It takes more work and taking the time to really know your child but even a child with underlying mental illness issues can be controlled without a spanking.
    PlaffelvohfenZeusAres42TKDB
  • TKDBTKDB 692 Pts   -   edited October 2019
    @all4actt

    When it comes to a Bipolar child, I've yet to hear of any Nationwide news stories, where a Bipolar child, has been spanked?

    I believe, that there is a very big difference between an intolerant child, or a Bipolar child, or a child who has ADD, or ADHD?  

    But if a parent let's an intolerant child walk all over them, then the parents are acting in an ignorant manner.

    There are plenty of intolerant kids in the United States, who have done jail time, or are doing jail time, because their parent, or parents acted ignorantly, by not disciplining their intolerant kid, or kids.
  • DeeDee 3940 Pts   -  
    To beat a dog is abuse , to beat a child is abuse. If as an adult you have to beat a child to make it comprehend your intentions it means your only effective way of communication with a child is violence, demonstrating you’re not fit to have children

    Idiots who agree with beating a child would be horrified if a person beat a pup yet they seem to have more respect for dogs than children.
    If you beat a child you’re a child abuser
    PlaffelvohfenZeusAres42all4actt
  • Dee said:
    To beat a dog is abuse , to beat a child is abuse. If as an adult you have to beat a child to make it comprehend your intentions it means your only effective way of communication with a child is violence, demonstrating you’re not fit to have children

    Idiots who agree with beating a child would be horrified if a person beat a pup yet they seem to have more respect for dogs than children.
    If you beat a child you’re a child abuser
    This really goes with out saying. Good post.
    Dee



  • MayCaesarMayCaesar 3819 Pts   -  
    @TKDB

    I am not aware of any studies suggesting that children that have been abused in their families are less likely to become criminals, than those who have not. In fact, I have seen multiple studies suggesting the opposite. Children in abusive families grow up broken and psychopathic, and they are much more likely to act in a vengeful manner towards the society who, as they see it, has wronged them.

    Have you ever heard of unconditional love leading to unspeakable crimes? I have not. Only "hard love", one that causes people to be violent, has a potential to lead to that.
    ZeusAres42PlaffelvohfenTreeMan
  • TKDBTKDB 692 Pts   -  
    @MayCaesar

    The only individual who has to live with your own thinking is you.

    "I am not aware of any studies suggesting that children that have been abused in their families are less likely to become criminals, than those who have not. In fact, I have seen multiple studies suggesting the opposite. Children in abusive families grow up broken and psychopathic, and they are much more likely to act in a vengeful manner towards the society who, as they see it, has wronged them.

    Have you ever heard of unconditional love leading to unspeakable crimes? I have not. Only "hard love", one that causes people to be violent, has a potential to lead to that."
    PlaffelvohfenZeusAres42TreeMan
  • DeeDee 3940 Pts   -  
    @ZeusAres42

    This really goes with out saying. Good post

    Thank you. I never understood idiots who wail about animal abuse yet hit their children for no other reason than they are far too to try communicating with their kids. 

    ZeusAres42PlaffelvohfenTreeMan
  • TKDBTKDB 692 Pts   -   edited October 2019
    @Dee

    When it comes to a Bipolar child, I've yet to hear of any Nationwide news stories, where a Bipolar child, has been spanked?

    I believe, that there is a very big difference between an intolerant child, or a Bipolar child, or a child who has ADD, or ADHD?  

    But if a parent let's an intolerant child walk all over them, then the parents are acting in an ignorant manner.

    There are plenty of intolerant kids in the United States, who have done jail time, or are doing jail time, because their parent, or parents acted ignorantly, by not disciplining their intolerant kid, or kids.


    "To beat a dog is abuse , to beat a child is abuse. If as an adult you have to beat a child to make it comprehend your intentions it means your only effective way of communication with a child is violence, demonstrating you’re not fit to have children

    Idiots who agree with beating a child would be horrified if a person beat a pup yet they seem to have more respect for dogs than children.
    If you beat a child you’re a child abuser"

    @Dee

    If people abuse dogs, by beating them, then they should be in jail. 

    If people are abusing kids by beating them, then they should be in jail as well.

    There is a Universal difference between spanking an intolerant child, and beating a child.



  • all4acttall4actt 227 Pts   -  
    @TKDB

    You can not blame always parents for bad choices a grown child makes.  Saying that having worked with kids on probation and kids who were incarcerated I have to say they were a mixed bag of family types.  Some of the kids came from families where breaking the law or gang involvment was a family way.  On the other hand we had kids that came from families with very proactive parents that the kid made the choice to go against all their famliy values and when asked why she did what she did the answer was simple. ' Because I wanted to."  No excuses. No blaming of anyone else.  Her parents had 6 children and she was the only child that they had with any any problems that we could see.  None or her siblings had any legal problems.  So I guess my point is that sometimes the parents can do everything right but still have a child that goes their own way and makes bad choices.  So without knowing the background of the unruly child you can't neccessarily blame the parents.
    .
    As far as raising a bi-polar kid goes it is a rollercoaster ride.  One you can't get off of.  Mine was also ADHD and had bad reactions to all of the ADHD medications.  When not in a bad place he was a nice, charasmatic, polite and basically a great kid with a lot of energy and  impulsivity issues.   
  • TKDBTKDB 692 Pts   -  
    @all4actt

    Are you making a polite excuse, with your below argument?

    "Saying that having worked with kids on probation and kids who were incarcerated I have to say they were a mixed bag of family types.  Some of the kids came from families where breaking the law or gang involvment was a family way."

    (Because those adult parents were wrong, in teaching their kids, that being anti law, or gang oriented, is a family way? Sounds like behind closed door brainwashing?)

    And if a parent has an anti law attitude, I cannot see how their parental skills, cannot be viewed as Child Abuse, and in the same light, is a form of corpral punishment, against their own kids, and the pro family dynamic.

    "On the other hand we had kids that came from families with very proactive parents that the kid made the choice to go against all their famliy values and when asked why she did what she did the answer was simple. ' Because I wanted to." 

    The female child, developed an attitude problem from either another parent with kids, or from another kid, or from another  adult, manipulating that female child with an irresponsible attitude problem.

    "No excuses. No blaming of anyone else.  Her parents had 6 children and she was the only child that they had with any any problems that we could see.  None or her siblings had any legal problems.
    So I guess my point is that sometimes the parents can do everything right but still have a child that goes their own way and makes bad choices.  So without knowing the background of the unruly child you can't neccessarily blame the parents."

    Because someone likely was using that female for their own gain, or trying to circumvent what the female child, was taught by her caring parents, so her siblings, and her parents, I'm guessing, had to put up with, going through an expensive legal nightmare,  because of someone having an outside negative influence over that female child? 

  • Just a little more on spanking and other corporal punishment, mainly with reference to UK legislation

    In the UK spanking is what we call smacking and laws are as follows:

    What is the law on smacking children?

    It is unlawful for a parent or carer to smack their child, except where this amounts to ‘reasonable punishment’. This defence is laid down in section 58 Children Act 2004, but it is not defined in this legislation.  Whether a ‘smack’ amounts to reasonable punishment will depend on the circumstances of each case, taking into consideration factors like the age of the child and the nature of the smack.  There are strict guidelines covering the use of reasonable punishment and it will not be possible to rely on the defence if you use severe physical punishment on your child which amounts to wounding, actual bodily harm, grievous bodily harm or child cruelty. https://childlawadvice.org.uk/information-pages/the-law-on-smacking-children/

    When will smacking become a criminal offence?

    A parent can be charged with a criminal offence if they harm their child under the following certain offences: an offence under sections 18 and 20 Offences against the Person Act 1861 (wounding and causing grievous bodily harm)an offence under section 47 of that act (assault occasioning actual bodily harm) an offence under section 1 Children and Young Persons Act 1933 (cruelty to persons under 16) https://childlawadvice.org.uk/information-pages/the-law-on-smacking-children/
    With regard to the second quote above what will help prosecutors and Judges determine the charges are physical signs such as
    • Grazes;
    • scratches;
    • abrasions;
    • minor bruising;
    • swellings;
    • reddening of the skin;
    • superficial cuts;
    • a ‘black’ eye.

    What is the guidance of the National Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Children (NSPCC)?

    It can be tempting to think a smack sorts out incidents like disobedience and biting. However, it does nothing to teach your child how you want him or her to behave. Instead it: gives a bad example of how to handle strong emotions;may lead children to hit or bully others;may encourage children to lie or hide feelings to avoid smacking;can make defiant behavior worse, so discipline gets even harder;leads to a resentful and angry child, and damages family relationships if it continues for a long time. All parents have behaved in ways they regret at times (shouting or smacking). If it happens, say you are sorry, make up and try again. This teaches the child a valuable lesson. https://childlawadvice.org.uk/information-pages/the-law-on-smacking-children/

    Moreover, as it stands mild smacking/spanking is still legal in England, Wales and Northern Ireland. However, just recently a complete ban was passed in Scotland - "Good for you Scotland." https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-49908849. Still, there remains calls to ban all forms of smacking/spanking in England, Wales, and Norther Ireland as well, of which I am also in favour of as well as big organizations such as "NSPCC2 and "11 Million". In addition to this there are also concerns that "section 58 Children Act 2004 continues to breach Article 19 United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child by failing to provide children with equal protection under the law on common assault." https://childlawadvice.org.uk/information-pages/the-law-on-smacking-children/


    Furthermore, it is also agreed upon by multiple resources that smacking/spanking along with other forms of corporal punishment is ineffective and there other more positive ways to discipline children such as:

    How to discipline without smacking

    Give love and warmth as much as possibleHave clear simple rules and limitsBe a good role modelPraise good behaviour so it will increaseIgnore behaviour you don’t want repeatedCriticise behaviours, not your childReward good behaviour with hugs and kissesDistract young children or use humourAllow children some control; joint decisions, choicesIf a punishment is necessary, the removal of privileges, ‘time out’ or natural consequences are better. https://childlawadvice.org.uk/information-pages/the-law-on-smacking-children/
    In addition to the above I would also like to make it very clear that smacking/spanking your child because you got angry with him/her is not discipline; in fact it's actually a lack of self-discipline on your part, and this most definitely won't suffice as a good defence in your favour if you ever end up in court because of a spanking/smacking case; I can just imagine it now:

    Judge: "So why did you spank your 7-year-old child that hard and left a mark?"

    Defendant: "Because she made be mad your honour."

    Judge: "That is no excuse for your behaviour let alone a backward one; sentencing will begin!"


    Lastly, I would also like to point out that spanking and all other forms of corporal punishment within schools was banned long ago within the UK. These would have also included forms such as using the Cain, Belts, Flogging, Hitting with rulers, pinching cheeks, throwing small objects etc even at small elementary school children; absolutely barbaric! Fortunately, we're now a first world country in the 21st century where progress is being made, at least in this respect.


    References:
    https://www.ohchr.org/en/professionalinterest/pages/crc.aspx
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-49908849
    https://learning.nspcc.org.uk/research-resources/leaflets/positive-parenting/
    PlaffelvohfenTreeMan



  • MayCaesarMayCaesar 3819 Pts   -   edited October 2019
    @TKDB

    Why are you always impersonating Mr. Lebowski, commenting on everything you disagree with with "It's just like your opinion, man"? I am aware that this is my own thinking; I am the one who is posting it, after all. Why do you not point out where I am wrong in my argument instead?

    So far you have not given any reason for violence being a proper way to discipline a child. I would like to see an explanation of how whipping a child makes them better off in the end. As far as my understanding goes, violence never teaches people anything, and it only comes in handy when people are beyond teaching and others need to be protected from them.
    And if it came to this as early as one's childhood, then the parents have really messed it up, and nothing they can possibly do now will redeem their atrocious parenting.
  • MayCaesar said:
    @TKDB

    Why are you always impersonating Mr. Lebowski, commenting on everything you disagree with with "It's just like your opinion, man"? I am aware that this is my own thinking; I am the one who is posting it, after all. Why do you not point out where I am wrong in my argument instead?

    So far you have not given any reason for violence being a proper way to discipline a child. I would like to see an explanation of how whipping a child makes them better off in the end. As far as my understanding goes, violence never teaches people anything, and it only comes in handy when people are beyond teaching and others need to be protected from them.
    And if it came to this as early as one's childhood, then the parents have really messed it up, and nothing they can possibly do now will redeem their atrocious parenting.

    MayCaesarPlaffelvohfenTreeMan



  • TKDBTKDB 692 Pts   -   edited October 2019
    @ZeusAres42 ;

    If you have an issue, please take it up, with the Moderator of the website?



    "Just a little more on spanking and other corporal punishment, mainly with reference to UK legislation"

    "With regard to the second quote above what will help prosecutors and Judges determine the charges are physical signs such as
    • Grazes;
    • scratches;
    • abrasions;
    • minor bruising;
    • swellings;
    • reddening of the skin;
    • superficial cuts;
    • a ‘black’ eye."

    In the UK spanking is what we call smacking and laws are as follows:

    What Is The Law On Smacking Children?

    It is unlawful for a parent or carer to smack their child, except where this amounts to ‘reasonable punishment’. This defence is laid down in section 58 Children Act 2004, but it is not defined in this legislation.  Whether a ‘smack’ amounts to reasonable punishment will depend on the circumstances of each case, taking into consideration factors like the age of the child and the nature of the smack.  There are strict guidelines covering the use of reasonable punishment and it will not be possible to rely on the defence if you use severe physical punishment on your child which amounts to wounding, actual bodily harm, grievous bodily harm or child cruelty. https://childlawadvice.org.uk/information-pages/the-law-on-smacking-children/ 

    Where is the UK definition between Disciplining a child, for acting intolerant, verses the abuse of a child, based on your UK shared version of child abuse?

    Because in the United States, the CPS would investigate a child being abused by abuse, verses being spanked, 

    Can you provide a proper definition? 
  • TKDBTKDB 692 Pts   -   edited October 2019
    @MayCaesar

    If you have an issue, please take it up with the Moderator of the website?
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