Is teaching religion to kids abuse?

YeshuaBought

TKDB said:

@Happy_Killbot

And any Atheist can talk all sorts of lazy smack, about Religious parents are abusing their kids with Religion, just because you think so?

I agree. my father was like that, so sad.

YeshuaBought

Dee said:

@YeshuaBought

Yet a couple of weeks ago you said there was no god and you hated god for your life .....maybe someday you will make your mind up what you actually are 

I said that, because I was angry. You really do, need to mind your own business,, and leave me alone.

Dee

@YeshuaBought


**** I said that, because I was angry.

LOL now your not angry so there is a god ooooookay 

 ****You really do, need to mind your own business,,

Don’t post your private business up online then 

**** and leave me alone.

I actually am leaving you alone but you keep stalking me 

YeshuaBought

Dee said:

@YeshuaBought


**** I said that, because I was angry.

LOL now your not angry so there is a god ooooookay 

 ****You really do, need to mind your own business,,

Don’t post your private business up online then 

**** and leave me alone.

I actually am leaving you alone but you keep stalking me 

You are the one stalking me. Leave me alone, you ****ing C***!

Vaulk

@Happy_Killbot ;

Happy_Killbot said:

@Vaulk I feel like I have already had this conversation with you about slavery and the bible, but I can't remember if it was with someone else or not.

Anyways, long story short the bible doesn't forbid slavery and the passages about putting people to death for taking a slave only pertains to other Israelites, meaning slaves can only be from other tribes/cities. 

I'm going to disagree that the Bible's stance on punishing those who take others against their will only pertains to other Israelites.  To my knowledge there is no passage that clarifies the specificity necessary to make this conclusion and if you know of one then I'd like to see the reference.

As far as the basis for the U.S.'s legal framework being Biblical or inherently Christian I'd refer you to the founding fathers.

The Founders were a group of Men who became Founders at one particular moment in history.  The reason they're called "Founders" is because they created the Declaration of Independence, not the U.S. Constitution.

These American heroes included those who participated in the drafting and signing of the Declaration of Independence, those who signed the Articles of Confederation of 1781, and the Commander in Chief of the Continental Army.

The term "Founder" means "A person who establishes an institution or settlement".
The term "Foundation" means "An underlying basis or principle".

Therefor we must refer to the Declaration of Independence and the Articles of Confederation of 1781 in order to gain a perspective on what the foundation of this Country included.  Most notably in the Declaration of Independence is the founding principle "that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness".

Life, Liberty and The Pursuit of Happiness are the base standards by which the entire Constitution is written.  The Supreme Court of the United States has declared in Cotting v. Godard, in 1901, the Constitution is but the “body and the letter” of the “thought and spirit” of the Declaration’s founding principles.  

So if the Highest Court in the United States declares that the Declaration of Independence contains the founding principles of our Country then we must ask..."Where do these principles come from"?  Where does Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness come from?  How did we arrive at the conclusion that these are rights and moreover...unalienable rights?  Simply answered: "They're endowed to us by our Creator", so says the Founding Fathers of the United States.  

So to summarize this.

SCOTUS Says the DOI is the mind and spirit of the Constitution.
SCOTUS Says that the DOI contains the founding principles of our Country.
DOI establishes the founding principles of Life, Liberty and Pursuit of Happiness.
Life, Liberty and Pursuit of Happiness are all established in DOI as endowed by Creator.
Ergo: Creator is the origin of the principles used to establish our Country by our Founding Fathers.

Additionally, the Founding Fathers went on to establish the following:
"We, therefore, the Representatives of the united States of America, in General Congress, Assembled, appealing to the Supreme Judge of the world for the rectitude of our intentions, do, in the Name, and by Authority of the good People of these Colonies, solemnly publish and declare, That these United Colonies are, and of Right ought to be Free and Independent States";

Rectitude is "Morally correct behaviour or thinking; righteousness".

The Men that wrote the DOI became Founding Fathers as soon as it was signed.  Ergo, the Founding Fathers founded our Country using a principle established as being God given and then went on to establish that they were submitting their actions for approval of morally correct behavior to the "Supreme Judge of the World".

Not only did the Founding Fathers acknowledge God but they also affirmed that God is the Supreme Judge of the World in terms of "What is morally correct behavior".  This is where "Objective Morality" comes from in the U.S.

Indisputable, undeniable, irrefutable evidence that the U.S. is founded upon Christian principles is all above in the links I provided.  This is pure evidence, logic and reasoning.  Like it or not, the U.S.'s foundation is firmly rooted in Christianity.  It's only the National Motto of the entire Country.

Happy_Killbot

@Vaulk
On the slave matter:

Leviticus 25:44-46 "As for your male and female slaves whom you may have: you may buy male and female slaves from among the nations that are around you. You may also buy from among the strangers who sojourn with you and their clans that are with you, who have been born in your land, and they may be your property. You may bequeath them to your sons after you to inherit as a possession forever. You may make slaves of them, but over your brothers the people of Israel you shall not rule, one over another ruthlessly."

I have another post more recently where I challenge anyone to point to a single value unique to Christianity that is also a foundation of the US. The US was not founded on Judaeo-Christian values, in fact the overwhelming majority of them run contrary to American founding principals. It is a complete myth that these principals came from Christianity, they did not.

The bible doesn't make all people equal unless you first assume this to be true, if you have a good argument as to why we can discuss it there where it is more relevant.

I mean, the first amendment clearly states that church and state are separated. You can not have freedom of religion unless you also have freedom from religion.

What was this thread supposed to be about?

Child abuse or something?

I'm not sure what your point is by now because it has been so long between posts.

Vaulk

Happy_Killbot said:

@Vaulk
On the slave matter:

Leviticus 25:44-46 "As for your male and female slaves whom you may have: you may buy male and female slaves from among the nations that are around you. You may also buy from among the strangers who sojourn with you and their clans that are with you, who have been born in your land, and they may be your property. You may bequeath them to your sons after you to inherit as a possession forever. You may make slaves of them, but over your brothers the people of Israel you shall not rule, one over another ruthlessly."

I have another post more recently where I challenge anyone to point to a single value unique to Christianity that is also a foundation of the US. The US was not founded on Judaeo-Christian values, in fact the overwhelming majority of them run contrary to American founding principals. It is a complete myth that these principals came from Christianity, they did not.

The bible doesn't make all people equal unless you first assume this to be true, if you have a good argument as to why we can discuss it there where it is more relevant.

I mean, the first amendment clearly states that church and state are separated. You can not have freedom of religion unless you also have freedom from religion.

What was this thread supposed to be about?

Child abuse or something?

I'm not sure what your point is by now because it has been so long between posts.

Yes indeed God did specify to purchase slaves from surrounding tribes and nations around the Israelites...that doesn't mean it can be against the will of those slaves.  Further scripture enhances that by stating that they may leave whenever they want and that no one can force them back into slavery of their master...in fact it's punishable by death.  What this scripture is saying is that, if you were to purchase slaves, do it from adjourning nations, not from within your own.  You may keep them indefinitely and give them to your sons as a possession.  This is all within the framework that slavery, in this context, is willful.  There are entire passages that we spoke of before that make it clear that slaves can leave whenever they want but also may choose to become slaves indefinitely.  In the case of willful slavery on an indefinite scale...sure, you can pass them onto your Sons.  The scripture isn't written like federal law, there's no need to go back and make additional references to the already established standards of "You can't keep people against their will", it's already been written and established as punishable by death.

The second half of my argument regarding the principles of the United States remains unchallenged.  The U.S. is most definitely founded upon christian principles and your reference to "Separation of Church and state" is without any legal reference. There is absolutely positively no reference to the phrase "Separation of Church and State" in U.S. Law....anywhere.  This is a common misunderstanding that people develop after reading something about "Freedom of Religion".  They assume that this must mean that Religion and Government MUST be separate in all things.  There's no such thing.

What the Law DOES say is that “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof.”  "Therefore, it is more accurate to say that the Constitution promotes freedom of religion and prohibits the federal government from inhibiting its citizens’ ability to worship as they wish".

There is no law on the books that prevents me from obtaining the office of Governor and then making decisions based on what's best for my State according to what the Bible says.  That's right, I can use the Bible to justify decisions on matters of State when deciding how to operate while holding Government office.  I can insist that all meetings of Governance are began with a Prayer to God, I can keep Holy Bibles in all Government Buildings as a policy and declare a National Day or Prayer.  Spoiler: These things already exist.  The reason they CAN exist is that there is no such law that requires a separation of Church and State...it's a myth that came about from reading history backwards and basically ignoring what the Constitution actually says.

ZeusAres42

Vaulk said:

Happy_Killbot said:

@Vaulk
On the slave matter:

Leviticus 25:44-46 "As for your male and female slaves whom you may have: you may buy male and female slaves from among the nations that are around you. You may also buy from among the strangers who sojourn with you and their clans that are with you, who have been born in your land, and they may be your property. You may bequeath them to your sons after you to inherit as a possession forever. You may make slaves of them, but over your brothers the people of Israel you shall not rule, one over another ruthlessly."

I have another post more recently where I challenge anyone to point to a single value unique to Christianity that is also a foundation of the US. The US was not founded on Judaeo-Christian values, in fact the overwhelming majority of them run contrary to American founding principals. It is a complete myth that these principals came from Christianity, they did not.

The bible doesn't make all people equal unless you first assume this to be true, if you have a good argument as to why we can discuss it there where it is more relevant.

I mean, the first amendment clearly states that church and state are separated. You can not have freedom of religion unless you also have freedom from religion.

What was this thread supposed to be about?

Child abuse or something?

I'm not sure what your point is by now because it has been so long between posts.

Yes indeed God did specify to purchase slaves from surrounding tribes and nations around the Israelites...that doesn't mean it can be against the will of those slaves.  Further scripture enhances that by stating that they may leave whenever they want and that no one can force them back into slavery of their master...in fact it's punishable by death.  What this scripture is saying is that, if you were to purchase slaves, do it from adjourning nations, not from within your own.  You may keep them indefinitely and give them to your sons as a possession.  This is all within the framework that slavery, in this context, is willful.  There are entire passages that we spoke of before that make it clear that slaves can leave whenever they want but also may choose to become slaves indefinitely.  In the case of willful slavery on an indefinite scale...sure, you can pass them onto your Sons.  The scripture isn't written like federal law, there's no need to go back and make additional references to the already established standards of "You can't keep people against their will", it's already been written and established as punishable by death.

The second half of my argument regarding the principles of the United States remains unchallenged.  The U.S. is most definitely founded upon christian principles and your reference to "Separation of Church and state" is without any legal reference. There is absolutely positively no reference to the phrase "Separation of Church and State" in U.S. Law....anywhere.  This is a common misunderstanding that people develop after reading something about "Freedom of Religion".  They assume that this must mean that Religion and Government MUST be separate in all things.  There's no such thing.

What the Law DOES say is that “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof.”  "Therefore, it is more accurate to say that the Constitution promotes freedom of religion and prohibits the federal government from inhibiting its citizens’ ability to worship as they wish".

There is no law on the books that prevents me from obtaining the office of Governor and then making decisions based on what's best for my State according to what the Bible says.  That's right, I can use the Bible to justify decisions on matters of State when deciding how to operate while holding Government office.  I can insist that all meetings of Governance are began with a Prayer to God, I can keep Holy Bibles in all Government Buildings as a policy and declare a National Day or Prayer.  Spoiler: These things already exist.  The reason they CAN exist is that there is no such law that requires a separation of Church and State...it's a myth that came about from reading history backwards and basically ignoring what the Constitution actually says.

@Vaulk I think you made a great argument here although I still see points as questionable such statements about wilful slavery and the US being founded as a Christian Nation. To my knowledge, it still isn't clear amongst scholars as to what exactly the US was founded on and what their beliefs were. However, it is agreed while they respected religion they were still against people getting any preferential treatment just because they were religious. I think what several of the founding fathers advocated for was for tolerance; not for secularism that opposes religion.

Also to my knowledge is that the slavery depicted in the Bible was very much like the slavery that occurred in the United States some time ago.  I also don't think it's correct to say that slavery is/was a willful act on the slaves part.

Vaulk

ZeusAres42 said:

@Vaulk I think you made a great argument here although I still see points as questionable such statements about wilful slavery and the US being founded as a Christian Nation. To my knowledge, it still isn't clear amongst scholars as to what exactly the US was founded on and what their beliefs were. However, it is agreed while they respected religion they were still against people getting any preferential treatment just because they were religious. I think what several of the founding fathers advocated for was for tolerance; not for secularism that opposes religion.

Also to my knowledge is that the slavery depicted in the Bible was very much like the slavery that occurred in the United States some time ago.  I also don't think it's correct to say that slavery is/was a willful act on the slaves part.

First of all, you are absolutely correct.  While the founding fathers presented judeo-christian values into the framework of the U.S. and even justified their founding of the U.S. in God's name...they did specifically make it so that no one religion could dominate within the United States and furthermore they made it so that religious people would never have an advantage over those who choose to have nothing to do with religion.  This however, does nothing to change the fact that all of the benefits that accompany the rights to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness were secured firmly by our founders as being God given rights.  You may no believe in God...but you still enjoy the rights and liberties that are secured in his name.  

Our founders were pretty ingenious in this matter, by securing these rights and liberties as being given from God...they made it so that they cannot be taken away or suppressed by Man.  It's like making a living will...you can't really do much to it because it doesn't physically exist...thus the protections it has are very unique.

To clarify on slavery"

The stealing and selling of Humans against their will in the Old Testament was punishable by death.  The exact phrasing is as follows

“Whoever steals a man and sells him, and anyone found in possession of him, shall be put to death".  Exodus 21:16

This makes it so that anyone having anything to do with forcefully taking anyone and selling them will be punished by execution.  That's it...there is no exception to this rule.  "Whoever" does it will die.

If you're still of the impression that this somehow only applies to Israelites then consider the additional passage:

“If a man is found stealing one of his brothers of the people of Israel, and if he treats him as a slave or sells him, then that thief shall die. So you shall purge the evil from your midst".  Deuteronomy 24:7

So now we have two separate passages from two different books explaining that, in both cases...whether it be a person of Israel or "A man" then the punishment is still death.  So in all cases of taking Humans and selling them...you die...Israelite or otherwise.

From the same book of Deuteronomy: 
“You shall not give up to his master a slave who has escaped from his master to you". Deuteronomy 23:15

Lastly is a passage explaining how indefinite slavery is achieved under willful conditions:

When you buy a Hebrew slave, he shall serve six years, and in the seventh he shall go out free, for nothing. If he comes in single, he shall go out single; if he comes in married, then his wife shall go out with him. If his master gives him a wife and she bears him sons or daughters, the wife and her children shall be her master's, and he shall go out alone. But if the slave plainly says, ‘I love my master, my wife, and my children; I will not go out free,’ then his master shall bring him to God, and he shall bring him to the door or the doorpost. And his master shall bore his ear through with an awl, and he shall be his slave forever.

This requires that the slave choose to willfully remain in servitude to his master indefinitely.  In today's society we wouldn't necessarily call this slavery, it's akin to a sub/dom contract where a sub willfully enters into a contractual agreement with a dom to serve him/her for a period of time.  On the outside it might appear to be slavery but the mechanism in place that facilitates the servitude is hinged on willful obedience.  The same applied for slaves in this case, if the slave decided to leave for any reason then he was allowed to do so and could not be brought back to this master, there are also passages requiring the Israelites to give shelter and refuge to slaves who escaped from forced slavery.

We_are_accountable

You are once again proving my point about hypocrites on the Left.

When responding to my debate on LGBT activists forcing their beliefs about Homosexuality onto our children in our homes with pro Gay marriage commercials during family programming on Hallmark channel, you denied being offended if Christian commercials were indoctrinating your children during commercials.

You are a as I already knew because here you suggesting that teaching children about Christianity is abuse!

It does bother you when others push their beliefs onto our children, so try being honest once in your life and admit that LGBT activists should not be indoctrinating our children to believe that Gay sex and marriage is normal. You did not call that abuse! WHY NOT? These LGBT activists are trying to deny the Science of Biology to our children! Is that abuse?

Stop being a hypocrite. If you don't want Christians indoctrinating children on TV commercials, which they don't, then tell these LGBT activists to stop doing it to our children!@Happy_Killbot

Happy_Killbot

@We_are_accountable
Homosexuals are perfectly normal and there is nothing about it that is abusing children, unless an adult is forcing themselves onto the child in which case it is no longer homosexuality. There is no crime against nature as far as the homosexual is concerned.

Religion however, is not normal in any way. It is in fact, completely absurd and quite obviously made up, which I can prove very easily:

Thor, Yahweh, Ra, Zeus, Vishnu, etc. These deities and their associated religion make extraordinary claims which contradict each other, therefore they can not all be true. Even within each religion there are many differences in interpretations that contradict, meaning that they can not all be true. Therefore, there can be no more than one and only one true religion, or they are all false. The rest were made up by people, this is an undeniable fact, that the Christian is overwhelmingly atheist with a single exception.

So this is truth, all or all but one religions are made up.

Now lets go ahead and make up a religion- In this religion all kids who do not do what their parents desire will be psychologically abused via shaming and isolation in accordance with the holy works of their god. What this religion believes is that all children are born inherently dirty and evil, and tells them this at least once a week. The only way they can be made clean is if they except the holy works of their god, and do exactly what the religious authorities tell them to do. Their religion is of course based on old myths and legends that have no evidence to back any of it up.

This religion is called Christianity, and it is psychologically abusive to children.

Would you let your kids go to a school where their teacher told them they would be fed to the lion in the basement if they did not behave? Then why would you be okay with telling your kids about hell, which is like this turned up to 11.

We_are_accountable

Do you even have any idea what abuse is? Are all Leftist's that blind to their abuse of unborn lives? I want you to witness a second or third trimester abortion as they dismember the baby limb from limb. They keep all the toes and fingers and hands and feet in a jar so that the abortionist can see he did not leave any baby parts inside the mother.

When you help elect these extreme pro abortion Democrat Presidents, you are supporting the killing of viable babies for any reason up to birth!!!!!!

THOSE ARE THE FACTS AND THAT IS THE TRUTH!

Now you go ahead spewing your bigoted hatred for people of faith, while being the true abusive person supporting abortion on demand!

You say Homosexuality is normal? ARE YOU KIDDING ME? Take the Science of biology once more and learn the natural roles of our bodies and gender.

You must be Gay to be so insecure and blind to the natural design of our bodies. I have noticed that the biggest anti Christian bigots on these sites are Gay, because of how the Bible calls homosexuality a sin.@Happy_Killbot

TKDB

No it's not child abuse.

( "Is teaching religion to kids abuse?" )

And I haven't seen any non Religious oriented evidence that any non Religious individual has ever presented any legitimacy, to the above question?

Not one Global court case, has ever been presented by any non Religious individual, to where Religion, or God, or Jesus, or the Bible itself, is behind bars right now along with the Religious parents for teaching their kids about Religion?

smoothie

@We_are_accountable

You must be Gay to be so insecure and blind

I have noticed that the biggest anti Christian bigots on these sites are Gay

Again with the irrelevant snarky comments. You better watch yourself. Aarong is watching your trolling every time you type.

Keep your weird LGBT commercial and abortion debate away from this thread, it is titled:

Is teaching religion to kids abuse?

Happy_Killbot

@We_are_accountable

First off, stop calling me a leftist.

Second, stay on topic. We aren't talking about LGBTQ anything here, If you want to talk about that please make a new debate or we can talk about it on one that you have already created.

Abortion is not child abuse, because it doesn't apply to children. Fetus's are not children.

Homosexuality is normal, we see it in animals.

Finally, you can't call someone an anti Christian bigot, because I treat all religions with the same equal respect they deserve-

None whatsoever.