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Is it a choice to ruin other living beings choices just to fill your stomach?
in Philosophy

By RS_masterRS_master 132 Pts
Should we ban meat? I would say no personally because I like meat and we may eat other animals but isn`t that part of the food chain? Am I correct lions eat antelope or wilder-beast? I believe that is because of the lions` high position in the food chain. I would say the same applies to humans. What do you think?
xlJ_dolphin_473
  1. Live Poll

    Should meat be banned?

    19 votes
    1. Yes
        5.26%
    2. No
      94.74%
    3. I don`t know
        0.00%
«13



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  • Everything we do is a choice. Even breathing is a choice: in principle, you have the option to forcibly stop yourself from breathing. Choices also have consequences, however, for you and for others.

    Banning meat seems nonsensical, as meat contains valuable nutritional elements that are hard to obtain from other sources. In nature, animals eat each other, and there is no reason for humans to not eat other animals - however, given our technological advancement, we can refrain from doing it to a certain degree. For example, we could stop hunting wild animals, given how farm animals give more meat than we need. Again, I would not be in favor of outlawing hunting - rather, I think our culture should evolve to the point where hunting wild animals will be seen as being akin to relieving oneself in the middle of a busy street: it is just not something that people will see as appropriate.
    StoneTTBJGXdebatePROxlJ_dolphin_473
  • MayCaesar said:
    Everything we do is a choice. Even breathing is a choice: in principle, you have the option to forcibly stop yourself from breathing. Choices also have consequences, however, for you and for others.

    Banning meat seems nonsensical, as meat contains valuable nutritional elements that are hard to obtain from other sources. In nature, animals eat each other, and there is no reason for humans to not eat other animals - however, given our technological advancement, we can refrain from doing it to a certain degree. For example, we could stop hunting wild animals, given how farm animals give more meat than we need. Again, I would not be in favor of outlawing hunting - rather, I think our culture should evolve to the point where hunting wild animals will be seen as being akin to relieving oneself in the middle of a busy street: it is just not something that people will see as appropriate.
    @MayCaesar You cannot choose to stop yourself from breathing. You have been built to not do that and if you try your reflexes will automatically stop you.
  • @RS_master

    Yes you can. You can put a tape over your mouth and nostrils and, with enough willpower, do nothing until you pass out and subsequently die, stopping breathing permanently. This would be a very impractical course of action, but, in principle, nothing stops you from choosing to take it.

    You can even stop breathing at will without any external actions until you pass out, with enough training. Happens to people trying to beat the breath hold record quite often, which is why they only do it under constant medical observation.
  • maxxmaxx 215 Pts
    most people simply do not realize that cooked food has been burned.  that is what heat and fire does to it.  it is just burned to the point where we wont eat it.  put your hand into a hot skillet; burns doesn't it.  that is what it is doing to any meat that you cook.  also enzymes are destroyed at 120 degrees f and as well most of the vitamin content. plus humans( or the primates we came from are not designed to eat meat. we do not have fangs to tear into raw flesh and our digestive tracts are designed to digest plant matter. we probably began eating meat out of necessity and by seeing other animals do so.   @RS_master
  • @maxx The bacteria also gets destroyed. I admit the corona-virus or cnov-2019 has started from meat but from raw bat meat. Heat and fire makes it safer and if you eat it raw it is likely something similar to he corona-virus could happen. 
  • maxxmaxx 215 Pts
    case in point, if we actually evolved to eat meat, we could eat it raw like other animals due by having developed an immune system to deal with it. how often have you seen a cow on the hoof and thought about tearing into it with your teeth and hands to eat it? if we actually had to evolved to eat meat, then I am sure nature would have give us the ability to run down and attack and eat these animals raw.@RS_master
  • @maxx Are you in the stone age or are you here now? If you are in the stone age you are correct but now our appendix does not work anymore.
  • maxxmaxx 215 Pts
    our appendix is not our entire immune system. we eat and consume bacteria everyday.  you can easily look this up; our bodies were not designed to consume meat, neither biologically nor physically@RS_master
    Plaffelvohfen
  • @maxx our appendix is our only organ that we have that could digest raw meat. The rest of our immune system... Why is the corona-virus killing us? Surely our immune system would have blocked it from even starting...
  • maxx said:
    our appendix is not our entire immune system. we eat and consume bacteria everyday.  you can easily look this up; our bodies were not designed to consume meat, neither biologically nor physically@RS_master
    @maxx We have also evolved from chimps who eat meat.

    Partially lapsed vegetarians, chimps eat meat. Seven kinds of primates, including their favorite, red colobus monkeys (Procolobus rufomitratus tephrosceles) are on the menu as are three other mammal species. But most chimps don't eat such meaty treats often. Three percent of the average chimp diet comes from meat.2 Aug 2012

    In this case why shouldn`t we?
  • maxxmaxx 215 Pts
    edited February 9
    chimps eat red meat just as we used to, by scavenging; they do not chase down their food. look it up . just type in are we biologically designed to eat meat.as well, do you understand the amount of carcinogens there is in cooked meat? as well humans simply do not need meat to survive; there are olenty of evidence that a veggie diet will help people live longer@RS_master
  • @max I think it’s a stretch to say that cooked meat is burnt.
  • maxxmaxx 215 Pts
    nope,  put your hand into a flame or a hot skillet  your hand is meat. burns does it not/                                                        @TruthSearcher
  • It hurts, but it will “burn” only when it reaches a certain temp. 
    Plaffelvohfen
  • It is also a choice to ruin other living beings to drive.
  • maxxmaxx 215 Pts
    it burns .  cooking is a polite word for burning. take a raw steak and "cook" it till its done.  have the mental picture?  now do the same with your hand, till it looks like the steak. guess what, you burned the crap out of your hand. @TruthSearcher
    PlaffelvohfenxlJ_dolphin_473JGXdebatePRO
  • If you leave it on there long enough. Otherwise, you just cooked the crap out of your hand.
    Plaffelvohfen
  • maxxmaxx 215 Pts
    my point is when you cook food you burn it, does not matter if you claim it is cooked. just because the animal is no longer alive to feel the heat, it is still being burned.  we do not need meat to survive. in fact there is much more evidence that points in favor of non met consumtion that leads to more longevity and better health@TruthSearcher
  • @maxx at what temperature does something burn?
  • MayCaesarMayCaesar 3202 Pts
    edited February 11
    @maxx

    The act of "burning" requires that the object of burning reacts with gas in a way that sets it on fire; there are many ways to cook meat and other food that does not involve any flame whatsoever, such as cooking it in an oven.

    Aside from this semantic difference, while it is true that we do not "need" meat to survive, we have evolved to be omnivorous, and meat is a viable source of nutrition for us. And we do have fangs, the third tooth from the middle, that have significantly degraded over millions of years of evolution, but still resemble fangs found in other meat-eating animals and serve the same function.

    As for your point about running, we do have the capability to hunt animals on foot. Our modern lifestyle obviously does not allow this; we are too physically weak and untrained to do anything of the kind. But if you look at the primitive tribes found in Amazon forests or in southern Africa, you will see that they are quite adamant hunters, usually utilising traps for convenience, but not needing them necessarily.
    If you had grown up in an environment where you are taught from the age of 3 the basics of hunting and have to perform exhausting physical activities every day to learn survival, then by the adult age you would be a very effective hunter.
    TruthSearcher
  • maxxmaxx 215 Pts
    nope,  burning does not mean it has to burst into flames. you can be burned by the sun; you can spill hot grease on you. there is more than one definition of burn. second. we can get all the nutrients we need from plants, including b-12. as well, we simply are not hard wired to eat meat. we do not see a live animal and think about tearing into it with hands and teeth.  eating meat ages us, especially "cooked: meat.  just the carcinogens alone in cooked food  is enough to age us. meat is also hard to digest for humans; you can easily see that our digestive system is designed  for plant matter. @MayCaesar
  • maxxmaxx 215 Pts
    that depends upon how long you leave it in there. as well as the condition of the meat. take a baby into the sun at 60 degrees for an hour? you burned te baby@TruthSearcher
  • @maxx

    When we say that we get "burned" by the Sun, we use this word metaphorically. From the scientific perspective, burning requires flames to be present. For example, boiling is not burning, while capable of cooking meat.

    We cannot get enough proteins from plants; we can substitute animal meat with, say, mushrooms, but plants alone are not going to cut it. You can eat plants only and survive, but your health will suffer significantly.

    As for your point about us looking at animals and not wanting to tear into them, we also look at edible plants and do not want to jump at them. We are strongly conditioned by our modern peaceful environment to put many of our primal (and unused) instincts aside.
    Granted, you can try this experiment: fasting for a few days. After that, I guarantee that looking at any possible source of meat will awaken those primal instincts in you, and you will want to tear into it.
  • maxxmaxx 215 Pts
    edited February 11
    I do not believe burned by the sun is a metaphor. however we agree to disagree on that one.  yes we can get enough protein from plant material. many beans have more ounce per ounce of protein than meat does.  there is way more evidence that a vegan type diet will keep humans ali ve longer than eating meat. granted, we may "feel" hungry more but again if you recall  that if ones live on the edge of hunger, humans can live longer. we do need food to survive but we simply do not need meat to do so. as well I have know many vegans who after months of no meat, find the smell of it cooking actually makes them sick. https://hippocratesinst.org/cooked-food-whats-in-it  ; @MayCaesar
  • Protein is not the only human body need nine amino acid are essential out of the 20 amino acid's people require for growth. You should also be aware that animal proteins are used in the production of many medications we need to take.
  • maxxmaxx 215 Pts
    edited February 12
    nuts, soy beans@, lentils, beans and quinoa.  quinoa and soybeans alone have all 9. one does not need to eat all 9 in one meal,  just as long as we consume them.  yes i agree we make many medicnes from animal protein, but that protein is extracted and causes none of the affects of eating meat whole.J as well, although not technically vegan, eggs are a complete protein, with all the needed aminos ohn_C_87
  • @maxx If you cook (what you call burn) food you are getting rid of bad bacteria. The coronavirus and SARS happened because of eating it with the virus and bad bacteria. Would you prefer to have something with 100% of its nutrients but know there is 50% chance you will catch a disease or get a virus or have something with 50% of its nutrients and 99% you will not get a disease or virus?
    xlJ_dolphin_473
  • maxxmaxx 215 Pts
    how about just not eating meat in the first place?
    @RS_master
    RS_master
  • @maxx ;
    1. You are trying to switch the point because you cannot think of a valid reply to my argument.
    2. I believe it is a choice to eat what you want.
    3. Eating meat is part of the food chain.
    4. I agree it is bad for the environment but we can have meat as a reward thus we are being Eco-warriors because we are having it but less of the time. 
    xlJ_dolphin_473
  • i think meat that has no concious choice or thought like a fetus is the perfect example of a humane option for meat it can't even fight back it just tries to kick you but they are dumb and you can eat them raw
  • maxx said:
    I do not believe burned by the sun is a metaphor. however we agree to disagree on that one.  yes we can get enough protein from plant material. many beans have more ounce per ounce of protein than meat does.  there is way more evidence that a vegan type diet will keep humans ali ve longer than eating meat. granted, we may "feel" hungry more but again if you recall  that if ones live on the edge of hunger, humans can live longer. we do need food to survive but we simply do not need meat to do so. as well I have know many vegans who after months of no meat, find the smell of it cooking actually makes them sick. https://hippocratesinst.org/cooked-food-whats-in-it  ; @MayCaesar
    Technically, what the Sun does is it subjects the molecules of your skin to radiation damage, where photons hit the atoms on them and split some of them. It is very different from burning, which is a chemical reaction, not an atomic one.

    It is true that we can get enough proteins from some plants, but we need to eat an ungodly amount of them to do so. Meat is much more convenient and natural. It is easier to raise one chicken, so you could have enough of it to last you a week, than it is to raise enough beans for you to eat seven bowls of them and get as much nutrition.

    Do not get me wrong; I barely ever eat meat myself and am doing fine. I do eat eggs regularly, however, as well as mushrooms and cheese. I find that with time I care less and less about how the food tastes, and more about how healthy it is. I could easily have a diet consisting solely of foods tasting like cardboard, as long as I know that it is healthy.
  • Well, at least we humans are generally not as brutal as the actual wild kingdom when it comes to filling our stomachs! Have you ever seen what a gang of chimps do to other monkeys? Us humans are like pussycats compared to the wild kingdom.
    JGXdebatePRO



    I'm on my level!





  • @ZeusAres42

    I would say that humans can be much more brutal than animals in some rare cases (such as dropping an atomic bomb, initiating a genocide, etc.), but we very rarely resort to that. On the other hand, animals have less potential to be brutal, but realise this potential routinely.

    The most brutal human is much more brutal than the most brutal lion, but the average lion is much more brutal than the average human.
    JGXdebatePRO
  • MayCaesar said:
    @ZeusAres42

    I would say that humans can be much more brutal than animals in some rare cases (such as dropping an atomic bomb, initiating a genocide, etc.), but we very rarely resort to that. On the other hand, animals have less potential to be brutal, but realise this potential routinely.

    The most brutal human is much more brutal than the most brutal lion, but the average lion is much more brutal than the average human.

    @MayCaesar ; Hence why I said "at least we humans are generally not as brutal as the actual wild kingdom"
    MayCaesarJGXdebatePRO



    I'm on my level!





  • MayCaesar said:
    @RS_master

    Yes you can. You can put a tape over your mouth and nostrils and, with enough willpower, do nothing until you pass out and subsequently die, stopping breathing permanently. This would be a very impractical course of action, but, in principle, nothing stops you from choosing to take it.

    You can even stop breathing at will without any external actions until you pass out, with enough training. Happens to people trying to beat the breath hold record quite often, which is why they only do it under constant medical observation.
    No, that is incorrect. As @RS_Master said, your reflexes will stop you doing that.
    JGXdebatePRO
  • maxx said:
    nope,  burning does not mean it has to burst into flames. you can be burned by the sun; you can spill hot grease on you. there is more than one definition of burn. second. we can get all the nutrients we need from plants, including b-12. as well, we simply are not hard wired to eat meat. we do not see a live animal and think about tearing into it with hands and teeth.  eating meat ages us, especially "cooked: meat.  just the carcinogens alone in cooked food  is enough to age us. meat is also hard to digest for humans; you can easily see that our digestive system is designed  for plant matter. @MayCaesar
    1. You do not get all the nutrients you need from plants. Vitamin B-12 cannot be obtained from plants in the necessary volume, and nor can Vitamin B-6, thiamin, niacin and zinc. Vegans have to regularly get injections of Vitamin B-12.
    2. Eating meat does not age us. Think of it this way: not eating meat makes us live longer.
    3. Our digestive system is designed to digest meat, raw meat in particular. Can you think of another use of the appendix? No, nor can I.
    4. Cooking is not the same as burning. Burning is the process by which carbon is produced. Cooking is making food more digestible.

    I believe that as we have a high position in the food chain, we have the right to eat animals lower down in the food chain.
  • maxxmaxx 215 Pts
    no, I am giving you a valid reason as to why we should ban it . it is unhealthy.  yes it is your choice to eat unhealthy as for now@RS_master
    JGXdebatePRO
  • Yes, it is a choice. I choose to ruin other living beings' choices just to fill my stomach.


    JGXdebatePRO
  • @MayCaesar So let me get this straight... You believe that nutrients are worth a life? You believe that a choice is still a choice if it slaughters an innocent being? Let me ask you a question. If you were forced to kill for meat, and end the animal's life for food, would you do it? this is the same as having meat on your plate.
    xlJ_dolphin_473
  • Mint_TeaMint_Tea 16 Pts
    Everything in life is a choice, if you want to eat meat then eat meat, if you don't want to....then freakin don't.  If we ban meat because some people disagree with it then what's to say we shouldn't ban all sugars because sugar is bad, or seafood simply because some people don't like it?  
  • maxxmaxx 215 Pts
    actually, the only issue is that we are intelligent enough to understand what we are doing when we end a life just to eat. In actuality though, in which many biologists agree, is most primates did not originally evolve to eat meat, including humans.   @JGXdebatePRO
  • piloteerpiloteer 669 Pts
    edited March 9
    If anything else, it is certainly immoral to eat meat because of the impact it has on the environment. The  processing of meat pollutes huge amounts of water, which in turn goes into the water table and pollutes the water table. It also takes vast amounts of energy to process meat, and a lot of open land is needed which also produces more greenhouse  emissions.   
  • We could stop eating meat but that wont prevent us from killing animals to fill our stomachs. To produce crops we kill thousands of animals to keep them healthy.  In general farming crops can also be harder on the environment.
  • maxx said:
    no, I am giving you a valid reason as to why we should ban it . it is unhealthy.  yes it is your choice to eat unhealthy as for now@RS_master
    @maxx Meat is not unhealthy under all circumstances. Meat has more:
    iron
    iodine
    omega 3
    calcium
  • maxxmaxx 215 Pts
    edited March 10
    we do not need meat in order to survive.. if we had evolved to eat meat, we would have the ability to tear through an animals thick hide with our teeth. as well, our, digestive system is designed for plant matter@RS_master
  • @maxx we can tear through chicken or lamb meat. Our most recent ancestors homo erectus or even chimps eat meat. Homo erectus was there less than a million years ago so it makes sense we still have the ability to eat meat and have evolved to eat meat. We are omnivores so we eat meat.
  • @MayCaesar So let me get this straight... You believe that nutrients are worth a life? You believe that a choice is still a choice if it slaughters an innocent being? Let me ask you a question. If you were forced to kill for meat, and end the animal's life for food, would you do it? this is the same as having meat on your plate.
    @JGXdebatePRO
    At the end, it is still a choice. As I said at the beginning, it is part of the food chain. Lions, they eat antelope because being at the top f the food chain, they get their respect and freedom. Because we are not the bottom we too should get respect and freedom. 
  • maxxmaxx 215 Pts
    edited March 10
    oh we have the ability to eat meat, but we learned to do so because of necessity when resources were rare and by mimicking other animals.. yet biologically speaking, both internal and external, our bodies are not designed to consume meat. Even mentally we are not designed for it. When we see a live cow or chicken standing around, our hunger response is not triggered. @RS_master
  • @maxx You have not rebutted my ancestor point or food chain point. We and our most recent ancestors are classified as omnivores. We are also near the top of the food chain thus we have the freedom of eating animals below. As my friend @xlJ_dolphin_473 stated, we have the choice.
    Now for rebuttal... Some humans are still hunter gatherers. Most of the population still prefer meat.
  • maxxmaxx 215 Pts
    edited March 10
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