false memories? or...

MayCaesar

Eh, @maxx, that could be a feature specific to you. That is not how my memories work: I do not see myself from the third-person perspective, but I see images that my brain generated at the time. When I remember my first encounter with a bully when I was 4, I do not at all remember seeing me standing there - I only remember his ugly face.

Some memories could be different as a result of coming back to them on numerous occasions and revising them, but that does not seem to be how memories work in general.

maxx

Well,  perhaps you are the exception to the rule. Even looking it up, i find thus is correct.  Im not making this up. What did you eat last? Recall it and you see the image  of you eating it, from a vantage point of someone else, not through your eyes as when it happens.  You shouldonly see the food in frontof you as you eat it, the table, your arms, and so on. Instead,  you see an image of yourself eating it. Yyes, one can force yourself to only see the food, however upon first recall, you see yourself. I could post links, however,  I suggest you look it up. Just type in , why to we recall memories from a third person.  @MayCaesar

MayCaesar

@maxx

I am not sure, maxx, why you are trying to tell me what I see when you cannot see from my perspective. I ate a very nice egg salad this morning, and I can see the bowl in front of me, the spoon in my right hand, the monitor and keyboard in front of me - and not myself from the side. Myself, I can only see when I think about me brushing my teeth earlier this morning and looking in the mirror.

Maybe that is not how most other people see it; I do not know, never asked. But if they see themselves from the third-person perspective, then it is hard to call it a "memory" since the scene in their mind never occurred in their life. It could be that they created a story around their memory and then visualized it and the result of that visualization is what they see now - but then their memory is of that visualization, not of their life.

maxx

so you are actually saying that when you recall a memory; say a few hours ago, you see nothing more that what your eyes originally perceived? are you saying that you do not see your body, just the view from your eyes?  well i guess evdryones brain operates a bit differently; yet this goes way back to freud.  What i disagree with, is it only occurs with those who have troubling memories; however i would like you to read the link.  Full article: Out-of-body memory encoding causes third-person perspective at recall (tandfonline.com)   Question: i am sure you recall waking up this morning and getting out of bed; so I ask; do you remember it from nothing more than the point of view from your eyes, or do you see yourself getting out of bed? @MayCaesar

Dee

@maxx

i'm on the same page as May I see things in more or less the same way.

maxx

over 33 percent of the population has third person recall. That is basically all I have. for instance, i had spaghetti last night and as i remember it, i simply see an image of me eating it; not the original view point from my eyes of nothing more than the food, table and what my eyes could only see. That link i provide goes into very great detail about it. I guess i could force myself to "think" i see the memory a different way, but that would simply be me creating it. Do you recall the last time you went driving? Be truthful, is your first immediate recall of seeing yourself in the car, or do you just see the dashboard,, the steering wheel, and the traffic ahead of you out of the windshield? I guess memory is different for everyone in the way they remember.  Perhaps it is genetic. Basically it is the way one remembers a dream; they see themselves rather than what the eyes see. I remember when i first learn to tie my shoe. I simply see myself doing the task, not the eye view point of the shoe and the ground. @Dee

Dee

Do you recall the last time you went driving? Be truthful, is your first immediate recall of seeing yourself in the car, or do you just see the dashboard,, the steering wheel, and the traffic ahead of you out of the windshield? @maxx


I was driving yesterday and yes when I recall I see the road ahead , the dashboard , my surroundings as I do in a waking state , I cannot do it any other way , my dreams likewise.

If your stats are accurate the way I recall would suggest the majority recall likewise, I wonder why the difference?

maxx

Some say it is to detach themselves from the memories due to trauma or grief, or even mental illness. if so, it also could be genetic for my great grand father had mental issues. or it could be because of emotional avoidance of memories at an early age because of issues that one does not want to recall, and from that point on, the brain is conditioned to recall all memories in a certain manner. When I was between ages of 3 and 6, we were very poor and had to live many times in black ghettos and were bullied. fear is another reason of why third person recall, and at such an age, viewing memories in third person, may just have conditioned my brain to continue to remember in such a way. So i am sure the stats are close enough to correct, and the reasons are probably varied and perhaps multiple. I never really thought about it much, until a few days ago, and looked it up. My younger brother is the same way; yet i can of course not ask my parents. That link is very heavy and lengthy on the subject and is hard to grasp all the details, yet it says something about part of the brain detaching itself into a different area to operate.  Even now in my adult, my memories are normal to recall, yet i simply see my self as if i were looking at the view from a separate vantage point.  @Dee

Dee

.
 When I was between ages of 3 and 6, we were very poor and had to live many times in black ghettos and were bullied. fear is another reason of why third person recall, and at such an age, viewing memories in third person, may just have conditioned my brain to continue to remember in such a way. So i am sure the stats are close enough to correct, and the reasons are probably varied and perhaps multiple. I never really thought about it much, until a few days ago, and looked it up. My younger brother is the same way; yet i can of course not ask my parent@maxx

That's very interesting,,maybe the brain uses this way of viewing things as a type of coping mechanism? 

maxx

according to the link, yes. It states it is a way to emotionally detach yourself from a bad memory. However, only a few memories are bad, so to speak, and it would seem that only those memories should be recalled in the third person, yet I think that if it starts at an early enough age, then the brain develops a pattern and falls into such type of remembering from that point on. I am actually surprised that only a third of the population experience this. If you actually see all your memories from the actual "eye" view, instead of seeing yourself from a observer view, then i guess that would be much closer to the actual memory. @Dee

maxx

well, after heavy thinking, and a few self experiments, i believe I found out how the brain produces third view. I dont know why or the mechanism, however; let me explain. The brain only produces third perspective if it already has the knowledge and details of where the event took place. It has to already have the area encoded, and when you remember; the brain "paints" the additional scenery, allowing a type of movie perspective. So, i tested. I went to a store in where I have been hundreds of times, therefore my brain had it already in its memory banks. I went to the donut bin and picked out two donuts; ate one, then paid for them and left. Ok, later, in memory, i see myself eating the donut. The brain painted the scenery around me, but the details were real and true. Fine! next i went into an auto part store where i have never been inside before. Yet I have been by the place hundreds of times so it is in my memory of the lot and the front of the store. When i recall it, I see myself going in from the third person; yet when i entered; bam, it jumped to the first person. Why? because the inside of the store was not in my memory banks. The brain could not produce the added perspective. I saw the guy behind the counter from first person, he asked me what i needed, i told him and went down the aisle, got it, and turned back to the counter. Bam! back to third person, because the counter and door were now in my memory and the brain added it to my memory. Yet the details were true, i saw myself paying, looking at my phone, and leaving. Then i took my disabled brother to the grocery store. I waited up front until he got done and then went to help him at the self checkout. The memory shows me in the third person as i unloaded the cart, yet when i turned to put the bags into the other cart, i turned away from my brother to do so, and i was in first person, because my memory banks had not him standing behind me like that. In the third person view, the brain adds the additional scenery only if it is already aware of it.  If i am not making myself clear, please ask to explain better.  The thing is, that I found out I do not like the first person view. I find it limited. The third person gives my memories an added vividness and a type of 3-d dimension. I like the memory of being at home, seeing myself talking to my wife or seeing her kiss me on the cheek, instead of simply seeing it from my eye view point. I like the movie perspective of seeing myself fishing, instead of just seeing the fishing pole and water.  I know i have to do more tests by going into more places that I have never been into before; yet I am sure that it will put me into the first person view until my brain encodes enough of the place to add the scenery. The main question however is why it does this.  @Dee ;  @MayCaesar

Dreamer

Argument Topic: If you want to learn more about false memories Mistakes were Made but not by me book is a great start.

There was a guy who wasn't even Jewish who thought he was both Jewish and a holocaust survivor after reading a lot about the events of WWII. This wasn't fraud, he truly believed what he said and wrote. Very interesting. Also there is false memories of alien abductions and people can create false memories in children which lead to wrongful convictions via the power of suggestion and/or hypnosis.

Dreamer

Argument Topic: Here's the wiki of the guy with the false memories.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fragments:_Memories_of_a_Wartime_Childhood

https://newrepublic.com/article/117764/misha-defonseca-pays-22-million-history-fake-holocaust-memoir

What do you think of Bruno Dössekker?

maxx

sorry, the debate really is not about "false" memories. read through the topic first, and then replies before you jump to conclusion as to what the debate is about.   @Dreamer

Dee

@maxx

I don't think it really matters either way in the grand scheme of things , I read this snippet online .......

"If you have a really negative experience, your brain might disconnect it from yourself, so you might remember that more in the third-person." And one commenter added that memory retrieval in the third-person might be a "trauma response" because these people "tend to be hyper-focused on our surroundings instead of ourselves."

maxx

no, it doesn't matter that much one way or the other. I never realized that most people never understood that a lot of people view memories in the third person.. Myself, i prefer it; especially since i have experienced both the third and the first view. As long as the actual details are correct in the memory, the added scenery is just a bonus. In my opinion, the first view is very limited. It is like watching a movie on television and you can only see what the speaker(s) is seeing when he talks; instead of both people in the scene. The third person view gives me both. @Dee

MayCaesar

maxx said:

well, after heavy thinking, and a few self experiments, i believe I found out how the brain produces third view. I dont know why or the mechanism, however; let me explain. The brain only produces third perspective if it already has the knowledge and details of where the event took place. It has to already have the area encoded, and when you remember; the brain "paints" the additional scenery, allowing a type of movie perspective. So, i tested. I went to a store in where I have been hundreds of times, therefore my brain had it already in its memory banks. I went to the donut bin and picked out two donuts; ate one, then paid for them and left. Ok, later, in memory, i see myself eating the donut. The brain painted the scenery around me, but the details were real and true. Fine! next i went into an auto part store where i have never been inside before. Yet I have been by the place hundreds of times so it is in my memory of the lot and the front of the store. When i recall it, I see myself going in from the third person; yet when i entered; bam, it jumped to the first person. Why? because the inside of the store was not in my memory banks. The brain could not produce the added perspective. I saw the guy behind the counter from first person, he asked me what i needed, i told him and went down the aisle, got it, and turned back to the counter. Bam! back to third person, because the counter and door were now in my memory and the brain added it to my memory. Yet the details were true, i saw myself paying, looking at my phone, and leaving. Then i took my disabled brother to the grocery store. I waited up front until he got done and then went to help him at the self checkout. The memory shows me in the third person as i unloaded the cart, yet when i turned to put the bags into the other cart, i turned away from my brother to do so, and i was in first person, because my memory banks had not him standing behind me like that. In the third person view, the brain adds the additional scenery only if it is already aware of it.  If i am not making myself clear, please ask to explain better.  The thing is, that I found out I do not like the first person view. I find it limited. The third person gives my memories an added vividness and a type of 3-d dimension. I like the memory of being at home, seeing myself talking to my wife or seeing her kiss me on the cheek, instead of simply seeing it from my eye view point. I like the movie perspective of seeing myself fishing, instead of just seeing the fishing pole and water.  I know i have to do more tests by going into more places that I have never been into before; yet I am sure that it will put me into the first person view until my brain encodes enough of the place to add the scenery. The main question however is why it does this.  @Dee ;  @MayCaesar

Do you think, maxx, that it is possible that, because you prefer the third-person view, you are telling yourself that this is how you actually view your memories? It is impossible to have a memory of an experience that you have not had, but because you would like to have one, might you be tricking yourself into believing that you have?

When I teach a class, I surely think a lot about what it looks like from the students' perspective: in this sense, I imagine a third-person view. The act of imagining produces a clear image in my mind, and I may in the future have some memories of that image. Those, however, will not be memories of me teaching from the third-person view - rather, they will be memories of me imagining myself teaching from the third-person view. They are memories of something that has never happened in reality, but my thinking generated. It is the memory of me watching a documentary about Amazonia and imagining what it would look like if I was there, not a memory of me actually being in Amazonia.

It does not seem sensible to me to use the fact that something would be preferable as an argument in favor of it being true. You may prefer the third-person view - but you only have the first-person one. Reality is not interested in what you prefer. Do you not agree with this?

maxx

no. i had no idea there were actually more than one view, at least not until recently. I am not the only person who has third person memories. Quite a percentage of the population does. I prefer the third view simply because it gives me an added dimensions to my memories. When i recall going into the store that i never been into, it was first person and i found that I did not like the view. I had never been in that store before and my brain had no scenery to apply to the memory, so it gave me the first person. I am not forcing nor telling my brain to decide one way or the other. It just happens that way. As to why, i do not know, for there may be many reasons. It may be genetic, or since it probably began in my early childhood, it might have started by dissociation because of something, and that conditioned mt brain to continued giving me third person view. I am not saying either view; first or third is better, nor does either one give advantages in life, because in the third person, most of the view is added on from earlier memories of knowing what the place looks like; yet the actual details of the memories are correct. Take a painter who paints a lake. There is the lake in front of him; first person.  The rest of the landscape can not be painted, for he has no knowledge of it. Yet one day he sees the whole landscape, and then returns to his painting. Now the whole view can be painted into the canvas. That is the third person. The lake is actually the only memory; yet the next time he sees it and later recalls in,  the additional memory of the rest of the landscape is now added on. or for instance; If you are in your room sitting in a chair, your memory already knows the details of the room you are in, so the third person view adds it to the memory you are recalling.  This is I believe the way third person memories work. As long as you have previous knowledge of the area you are remembering, the brain paints it into a memory; so a third person view is correct in the details of a first person view; yet with added details from previous memories of what you are remembering. When I tested this by going into places I have never been in before, i had first person view. I did not like the limited scope. I prefer the third person view for at least two reasons; i have had it all of my life, and i like the added panoramic  view.  @MayCaesar

Dee

Take a painter who paints a lake. There is the lake in front of him; first person. The rest of the landscape can not be painted, for he has no knowledge of it. Yet one day he sees the whole landscape, and then returns to his painting. Now the whole view can be painted into the canvas. That is the third person@maxx

I'm a full time Artist , I don't experience that at all. When I look at a lake in the distance I look right ,left and centre which covers a very large section of the landscape then I narrow it  narrow down to a specific focal point normally the most interesting and aesthetically pleasing part of the landscape.

I'm confused now as the what you think third person view is as it sounds like something very strange indeed.and for me Artistically limited..

maxx

I am explaining as well as I can. If I recall just the object alone, such as my car, I just see the car, a bit from the distance. Yet if i remember me getting in the car at some point, such as this morning, I see myself getting into it; either from a bit above, in front or slightly to the back and side. My brain is already aware and has knowledge of the full yard, such as the tree and garden hose in which i could not see if i was in first person recall; yet in third person, my brain knows it is there and adds in in. When you are painting the lake; and later remember it, from a first person view, you will only recall what the eyes saw. However, if your brain already knows what the landscape behind you looks like, the third person memory adds that to your memory. Before recently, I had no idea on different memory perspectives in first and third view, so i am reading up on it as well as self testing. In places I have been many times, my brain will infer the rest of the scenery and add to it simply because it knows it is there. The other day i went into another store i never been into; i stopped inside the doorway and left. Now when i recall it, i see myself going into the store because ive been by it many times before, but inside the doorway i see the first person view.  However, the main thing in a third person view, is I have to be in the memory to recall it that way. Remembering just an object gives me basically the first person view. I remember my moms back yard very well, I recall it in the first view looking at all the rose bushes, trees and flowers. Yet if i switch from remembering me being in the back yard among all of the trees and flowers, i see myself. @Dee

Dee

@maxx

*** When you are painting the lake; and later remember it, from a first person view, you will only recall what the eyes saw. However, if your brain already knows what the landscape behind you looks like, the third person memory adds that to your memory***

If your brain already knows what the landscape looks like it's already seen it it,so I don't know what you're getting at.

maxx

I do not know what you are getting at. i explained very carefully how the third person view works. You see yourself in the memory; you see added scenery that your first person view could not see. This is because the brain adds that additional scenery because it is already encoded. @Dee

Dee

@maxx


You clearly stated......


When you are painting the lake; and later remember it, from a first person view, you will only recall what the eyes saw. However, if your brain already knows what the landscape behind you looks like, the third person memory adds that to your memor


If your brain already knows what the landscape looks like it's already seen it it,so I don't know what you're getting at.

My response is pretty to the point so what am I missing?

I haven't a clue what you mean by ...

 you see added scenery that your first person view could not see


What is this  added scenery that you see but apparently I cannot see?


This is because the brain adds that additional scenery because it is already encoded.

Encoded added scenery that you see but others cannot ,what in gods name is that?

maxx

are you at this point just being difficult.? I have already answered and explained your questions. I am not going to go over and over the same thing. Added scenery is what you already remember from previous knowledge of where you are at. I said all of that before. I see myself getting into my car and my memory also shows an area i could not see from a first person point of view. It shows this added area into my third view simply because it is already in my memory; knows it is there and adds it. How many times do I have to answer the same questions?  There is very limited research on this topic; at least what i can find. Yet most researchers say third view is an effective way of dealing with troubling memories; by dissociation.  Yet all memories are not troubled  memories so there must be more to it. My brain may have conditioned itself from an early age to view memories in third view due to troubling memories "at that time"  Also it could have been the way i grew up between ages of 6 and 12. I read; read everything i could get my hands on. I read while eating, while watching tv. I read constantly and since most of the books were written ion the third point of view, i may have associated my self by remembering in the third person. It may be genetic. It may be a variety of reasons or a combination . I have only talked to three people, you, may and my brother.  My brother has the third person view. I have not gone around asking people if they do .Recalling memories from a third-person perspective changes how our brain processes them | ScienceDaily  .@Dee

Dee

@maxx

No I'm not being difficult,  you say a lot of things that make no sense.

 I have already answered and explained your questions. I am not going to go over and over the same thing. Added scenery is what you already remember from previous knowledge of where you are at.

No you haven't,  here is what you won't clarify.

Right , got that we all have the power of visual recalll but you stated....you see added scenery that your first person view could not see

What is this added scenery that you see but apparently I cannot see?


Also you said.....This is because the brain adds that additional scenery because it is already encoded.

What exactly is "encoded additional scenery?

You see  the only person being difficult is you as you fly into a sulk when I ask you to clarify , whys that?

maxx

I told you already. the added scenery is what the brain remembers of the  area that it already has knowledge of. Damn. Do you know what your kitchen looks like? of course. but when you look at your kitchen sink, you do not see the rest of the kitchen in first view. but in third view you see yourself looking at the sink, plus parts of the kitchen you already have knowledge of. As for encoding, that is how memories are stored into your memory banks. You see an event in real time, your brain encodes it in to your memory banks. I mean duh .Memory Encoding | Memory Processes Storage & Retrieval (human-memory.net) @Dee

Dee

@maxx

I told you already. the added scenery is what the brain remembers of the  area that it already has knowledge of.

Where I live we call that memory


Damn. Do you know what your kitchen looks like? of course. but when you look at your kitchen sink, you do not see the rest of the kitchen in first view. but in third view you see yourself looking at the sink, plus parts of the kitchen you already have knowledge of.

Why do I or would I need to see this way? 

 As for encoding, that is how memories are stored into your memory banks. You see an event in real time, your brain encodes it in to your memory banks.

Sto repeating what memory is. You said but refuse to clarify .....you see added scenery that your first person view could not ....I'm still, asking what is this added scenery you see that apparently I cannot?



I mean duh

You have a remarkable abilty to make the simplest of topics sound nonsensical by  using terminology that is utterly ridiculous,  why you sign off with another of your copy and pasted links is beyond me.

Here is a clear example of why engaging with you is truly painful......

When you are painting the lake; and later remember it, from a first person view, you will only recall what the eyes saw. However, if your brain already knows what the landscape behind you looks like, the third person memory adds that to your memory

All you've said here is that you need visual memory to paint the scene but somehow having a third person view adds to that , that's a complete crock of steaming cr-p

maxx

well, apparently you do not understand my answers. not my fault. I have told you several times what this added scenery is. It is what you already remember of an area. I see myself getting into my car, but i also see parts of the yard that a person with first view would not recall. That is the added scenery. My memory already knows what the yard looks like, so it gives me parts of it as i recall myself getting into the car. I have explained very carefully, plenty of examples, as to what a third view consists of. It is looking at the memory from an observer would see it. It is not simply seeing the car window and door as i get in. The third person view gives me a panoramic type of memory; or view.  you are in a parking lot facing a wall. You already know what the parking lot looks like, so in the third person recall, you see yourself looking at the wall with parts of the lot that you already remember. Now if i suddenly found myself in that parking lot, and if i never been or seen it before, my memory of it would be in the first person. surely you understand now. Unless you have different questions, i suggest you go back to the top and read again everything  very slowly and carefully to answer the questions you keep repeating.  as well, many people have third person memories and what they see is akin to how i explained it to you; like watching the event like a movie, so it is not a load of crap; in which i assume it is very easy for you to sneer and not understand a verified phenomenon simply because you never experienced before.  @Dee

Dee

@maxx

MAYO CLINIC ........

How you're experiencing  the world is called depersonalisation. Depersonalisation can be normal, and is only an indicator of underlying disease when feelings become excessive, all-consuming and interfere with life.

Depersonalization-derealization disorder can be serious and may get in the way of your relationships and work. It also can disrupt other daily activities. The main treatment for depersonalization-derealization disorder is psychotherapy, also known as talk therapy. Sometimes medicines also are recommended 

When you are painting the lake; and later remember it, from a first person view, you will only recall what the eyes saw.

Yes that's the way memory works.


However, if your brain already knows what the landscape behind you looks like,

Thats called remembering what you've already seen ......Memory recall  is the term used by normal people


the third person memory adds that to your memory

What does it "add"?

If I'm anywhere and have been before I can see it in panoramic , close up or above in my memory , what you're trying to say to me sounds the most absurd and inefficient way  of recalll and indeed seeing things.

maxx

depersonalization is not quite the same as third person memory. It can be part of third person memories. depersonalization occurs in non memory events as well. Depersonalization is characterized by feeling detached or disconnected from ones body and or thoughts. Having memories in the third person affects people from all walks of life, including those whom are healthy, normal functioning people. Dee before you just grab something you see on the web, understand it first.  What a person does in third person view is depersonalized their memories; the individual as a whole does not have to be experience depersonalization. You need to learn the difference here. Oh and thanks for quoting mayo clinic; a bit hypocritical though since it was one of the sites you sneered at on several of my past topics. Third person memories involve a different interaction among specific parts of the brain that a first person view.  i suggest you look up the differences between depersonalization and memory in itself. it is not related to memories. It is a feeling of detachment from ones thoughts and actions. Depersonalization - Wikipedia. it is clearly not the same.  Recalling memories from a third-person perspective changes how our brain processes them | ScienceDaily  as for the rest of your gripe, apparently you do not understand, or have third person recall. if you are looking at your kitchen sink, do you se yourself looking at it with parts of what is behind you? Not in the first person view. But the third person gives me that. At this point, i am thinking you are just here to argue and gain worthless points. Everything i have explained to you is real. As you read this, are you on mobile or a laptop? Either way , you may KNOW what is around you but you do not see it in your memory nor do you see yourself looking at your phone. I suggest not only you do a lot more reading on something before you sneer at it, but once again go back, read the entire posts from top to bottom and read the links. If you can not understand from that point onward, then it is useless to explain any more. @Dee

Dee

@maxx

You were not even aware that depersonalisation was actually a thing until I mentioned it and what's hilarious is now you try lecture me about it 

......Depersonalization-derealization disorder occurs when you always or often feel that you're seeing yourself from outside your body......

That's precisely what you suffer from according to medical experts of course you now resort to denialism.


if you are looking at your kitchen sink, do you se yourself looking at it with parts of what is behind you? 

What does that even mean? What parts are "behind me" ??.? Seriously are you insane, "parts behind me" !


Here is what you're refusing to answer you stated .....the third person memory adds that to your memory

What does it "add"?

maxx

never mind dee. ive answered all of your questions several times. not going to play your game. If you want the answers to your questions that you keep repeating, read the entire post.  It is in there many times. If you have any new constructive questions to ask, i may try to answer them, otherwise go after your points elsewhere.  @Dee

Dee

@maxx

ARGUMENT TOPIC : MAXX AS USUAL TIES HIMSELF IN A KNOT AND REFUSES TO ANWER ONE SIMPE QUESTION WHICH REMAINS ......


MAXX SAID .....

if you are looking at your kitchen sink, do you se yourself looking at it with parts of what is behind you? 

What does that even mean? What parts are "behind me" ??.? Seriously are you insane, "parts behind me" !

MAXX SAID ......

...the third person memory adds that to your memory

What does it "add"?

 

never mind dee. ive answered all of your questions several times. not going to play your game. If you want the answers to your questions that you keep repeating, read the entire post. It is in there many times. If you have any new constructive questions to ask, i may try to answer them, otherwise go after your points elsewhere. @Dee


MAXX TYPICALLY SULKS WHEN QUESTIONED 

maxx

you are full of bull. third person memory is a well documented fact. i ANSWERED YOUR QUESTIONS. it ois your own intellectually impairment that makes you able to understand. If you are in your kitchen, i ask, what is behind you? do you see that as part of your memory when you recall looking at the sink?  People with third person memory will. That part of the memory of what is behind you, is added to the memory of you looking at the sink. if you can not understand that, then you are denser that a lump of lead. @Dee

Dee

@maxx

you are full of bull. third person memory is a well documented fact.

I never said otherwise, i accept its a treatable condition as i explained.

 i ANSWERED YOUR QUESTIONS. it ois your own intellectually impairment that makes you able to understand

No you didn't , you refuse to say or answer ... you see added scenery that your first person view could not see


What is this  added scenery that you see but apparently I cannot see regarding painting a landscape?


. If you are in your kitchen, i ask, what is behind you? do you see that as part of your memory when you recall looking at the sink?

If you ask that I will say " the fridge is behind me" because that is the question you asked why would it be part of a memory regards a sink?

  People with third person memory will. That part of the memory of what is behind you, is added to the memory of you looking at the sink

Utter nonsense if asked what's behind you no matter what way you think an image of what's behind you comes into memory , seriously are you insane?

. if you can not understand that, then you are denser that a lump of lead. 

Well that's rich coming from someone who's suffering from a mental condition and seems to think memory is now something recently discovered by him.

I'm serious when I say I honestly believe you're mentally unbalanced 

maxx

one more time mickey. added scenery that from the people from the third person view does not see, but is included in the third person recall, is the area you are in when recalling the actual memory. I see myself not only getting into the car but the car itself, the top, the back; and it is all very well for you to call something utter nonsense if you never experienced a third person recall, but that does not make it so. go to another post where you may have a semblance of knowledge.  apparently you are not capable of understanding that people who recall their memories in the third person sees these details, despite of all the links i sent you. Do not attempt to tell someone or tell someone that they are wrong on something you have no knowledge of. If you want the last word, go ahead. it does not make you anymore knowledgeable on the subject. I have answered all of your questions many times. I am tired of trying to explain something to a person who is not capable of understanding it.   @Dee

Dee

ARGUMENT TOPIC : THE ONE QUESTION MAXX HAS BEEN ASKED 23 TIMES ( AND COUNTING) ......

What  is this added scenery that you see but apparently I cannot see regarding painting a landscape?


one more time mickey. added scenery that from the people from the third person view does not see, but is included in the third person recall, is the area you are in when recalling the actual memory

Why are you always so annoyed?

. I see myself not only getting into the car but the car itself, the top, the back; and it is all very well for you to call something utter nonsense if you never experienced a third person recall, but that does not make it so.

You're still, avoiding answering ...... ... you see added scenery that your first person view could not see

What is this added scenery that you see but apparently I cannot see regarding painting a landscape?

 go to another post where you may have a semblance of knowledge

Here you go again flying into a rage because you haven't a clue what you're trying to say ,so here you go .....What . is this added scenery that you see but apparently I cannot see regarding painting a landscape?


. apparently you are not capable of understanding that people who recall their memories in the third person sees these details, despite of all the links i sent you.

I never said that I'm still asking...... What is this added scenery that you see but apparently I cannot see regarding painting a landscape?


 Do not attempt to tell someone or tell someone that they are wrong on something you have no knowledge of. If you want the last word, go ahead. it does not make you anymore knowledgeable on the subject.


i've told no one nothing you're in a rage because you cannot answer...... What is this added scenery that you see but apparently I cannot see regarding painting a landscape?

I have answered all of your questions many times.

I asked one you keep refusing to answer ..... What is this added scenery that you see but apparently I cannot see regarding painting a landscape?


 I am tired of trying to explain something to a person who is not capable of understanding it. 

Yet you refuse to answer .....What  is this added scenery that you see but apparently I cannot see regarding painting a landscape?

maxx

are you that dense? the painting was an analogy.  I have answered each of your questions in detail and i am not going to keep answering the same questions. Aside from that, you have not answered a single question that i asked. If you are not capable of understanding, well your repeated questions after i answered surely shows it.  If you want to continue in a constructive manner in this debate, then we can do so; but i am not going to keel[ answering the same questions over and over. If you refuse to stop acting like an A-hole, then you can fly off to nowhere,. i do not care one way or the other. @Dee

Dee

@maxx

are you that dense?

But you're the one acting like a petulant child.

 the painting was an analogy

For what?


.  I have answered each of your questions in detail and i am not going to keep answering the same question

You haven't,  so why lie? Answer the question below.





But you said....you see added scenery that your first person view could not see..... so what exactly is that an " analogy" for?

Do explain?

What  is this added scenery that you see but apparently I cannot see regarding painting a landscape?

So what is it  I'm missing?

maxx

already been answered. i explained it in detail. bye. @Dee

Dee

As usual Maxx collapses like a cheap deck chair in a gentle summer breeze when asked one simple question.......

What is this added scenery that you see but apparently I cannot see regarding painting a landscape?

@maxx

MayCaesar

maxx said:

well, after heavy thinking, and a few self experiments, i believe I found out how the brain produces third view. I dont know why or the mechanism, however; let me explain. The brain only produces third perspective if it already has the knowledge and details of where the event took place. It has to already have the area encoded, and when you remember; the brain "paints" the additional scenery, allowing a type of movie perspective. So, i tested. I went to a store in where I have been hundreds of times, therefore my brain had it already in its memory banks. I went to the donut bin and picked out two donuts; ate one, then paid for them and left. Ok, later, in memory, i see myself eating the donut. The brain painted the scenery around me, but the details were real and true. Fine! next i went into an auto part store where i have never been inside before. Yet I have been by the place hundreds of times so it is in my memory of the lot and the front of the store. When i recall it, I see myself going in from the third person; yet when i entered; bam, it jumped to the first person. Why? because the inside of the store was not in my memory banks. The brain could not produce the added perspective. I saw the guy behind the counter from first person, he asked me what i needed, i told him and went down the aisle, got it, and turned back to the counter. Bam! back to third person, because the counter and door were now in my memory and the brain added it to my memory. Yet the details were true, i saw myself paying, looking at my phone, and leaving. Then i took my disabled brother to the grocery store. I waited up front until he got done and then went to help him at the self checkout. The memory shows me in the third person as i unloaded the cart, yet when i turned to put the bags into the other cart, i turned away from my brother to do so, and i was in first person, because my memory banks had not him standing behind me like that. In the third person view, the brain adds the additional scenery only if it is already aware of it.  If i am not making myself clear, please ask to explain better.  The thing is, that I found out I do not like the first person view. I find it limited. The third person gives my memories an added vividness and a type of 3-d dimension. I like the memory of being at home, seeing myself talking to my wife or seeing her kiss me on the cheek, instead of simply seeing it from my eye view point. I like the movie perspective of seeing myself fishing, instead of just seeing the fishing pole and water.  I know i have to do more tests by going into more places that I have never been into before; yet I am sure that it will put me into the first person view until my brain encodes enough of the place to add the scenery. The main question however is why it does this.  @Dee ;  @MayCaesar

I think that you have used the key word here: "encoded". This is also the word I have come across when reading papers on the subject: memories as "encoding" of events. That is what memories are, in essence: representation of past events in our mind. The most direct way to represent them is to simply "record" the events as the observer would experience them - but there are less direct ways as well, such as vividly imagining what they would look like from the side, or what effects they may have on events elsewhere. People who engage in day-dreaming a lot (like me or, I would guess, you) have very well developed and vivid imagination, so they are better able to put a spin on their direct experiences and frame them in a certain way that can then be preserved in their mind.

This is not how word "memory" is usually used, as usually it refers to "preserved experiences", rather than more abstract representation of those experience - but, I suppose, the term could be expanded without loss of the original meaning.

I have never found the 1st-person perspective limiting, perhaps because I am very comfortable with ignorance/uncertainty. If I am in a dark forest and hear a rustle behind my back, I will naturally experience primal fear and my imagination will start drawing wild images of monsters behind my back - however, part of my consciousness will be actively telling me that I do not actually know what it was, and that part tends to override other parts past the initial knee-jerk reaction. I am quite comfortable knowing that I will never learn what caused that rustle, and I do not feel the need to mentally zoom out and put something there in order to fill the gap of knowledge.

There are certain things we will never get to know in this world, and that is perfectly fine. I will never know what it is like for the love of my life to kiss me - I cannot experience the world from her perspective and receive her sensory inputs - and that is okay: I can live without that piece of knowledge. I also will never know what it is like to see me walking on the other side of the street from you, and I do not feel the need to use my imagination to fill this gap.

maxx

again, i see no advantage or disadvantage to either perspective. Third person only happens as long as i am in the memory; if i simply recall an object, i pretty much see it in the first person, and the same of a memory of a place i never been into before. However as long as the brain has a previous memory of the area of a memory that i am recalling, I will see portions of it in the memory i am recalling. I recall getting into my car, i see myself doing so, along with what my memory banks has stored with the rest of the area; or a least a good section of it, such as the shed or tree, that  i would not be able to see as i get in the car. "IF" i was getting in my car, and there was a huge bear standing behind me, in which i did not know of, and then it left, i would not see the bear in my memory; just the shed and tree. My memory has no previous concept or knowledge of a bear standing there. According to the links i read, the third person recall, is because of a stronger reaction between two regions of the brain, in which i assume that they mean that this interaction between the two parts bleed through so to speak,or vented. . There are many aspects of third view i do not understand. Are all the actual details correct? I am still doing self-tests. I went to the store to get coffee. while waiting on it, i put my ink pen on the counter and spun it around. In the memory i see parts of the store and see me spinning the pen. I am quite sure if i went inside the doorway of a place i never been in before, stood inside the doorway, took my pen out and tossed it in the air, i would see it in first person view.  There are according to the links, many reasons for the third view, the main one is to disassociate one from troubling memories. However not all memories are bad, and many people who has third view, are healthy mentally. So I would assume that like everything else, the third view, depends upon the individual. I am sure that i developed this view at an early age, and from that age on, my brain was conditioned to continue to view in such a perspective. On a side note, The third view; at least for me, can have different views. Most of the time it is above me, and to the side and back; yet it can be in front to one side, or even straight behind me. Yet i do not recall viewing myself from exactly facing myself. Another test, i have been doing, is instant recall; in where i set something down look at it, and look away; then immediately try to remember it. It starts on recall as an image and nothing else.  I am not sure if just the image is even a first person view. However after time, fifteen or twenty minutes or so, i begin to see the object in third person. What does that tell me? I have no idea other than the longer a memory is installed , the more apt it is to be a third view for me. @MayCaesar

maxx

if you wish to continue, stop asking the same questions; read my latest reply to may and you can start from there. @Dee

Dee

@maxx


You conceded defeat 17 posts ago when you point blank refused to answer .......What is this added scenery that you see but apparently I cannot see regarding painting a landscape?


Constantly parroting you answered when you didn't is pretty childish,  so in plain english ....What is this added scenery that you see but apparently I cannot see regarding painting a landscape?

Bet you run or deflect and swerve .....again.

maxx

i have answered that question several times; you simply failed to understand. And defeat of what?  Are you claiming third person memories do not exist? If you are painting a picture of a lake, in the first person view, you will recall just what the eyes can see if you are simply sitting still. correct? Now try to understand: if you already have knowledge of the area ; let say there is a tree or a cave or whatever to the side or back of you that you can not see, from the view where you are sitting, then that added scenery, the tree or cave is added into the memory as you recall yourself painting the lake. This is about the fifth or sixth time i answered this question. I am not going to explain that question again. if you still fail to understand it, then is your problem, not mine. @Dee

Dee

@maxx

I have answered that question several times; you simply failed to understand

That's simply not true, you made a statement but didnt clarify when questioned 


. And defeat of what?

What?


 Are you claiming third person memories do not exist?

No , in actual fact I specifically mentioned them and the Mayo clinics assessment of such , seriously can you try and keep up?

 If you are painting a picture of a lake, in the first person view, you will recall just what the eyes can see if you are simply sitting still. correct?

And? Thats how painting the scence in front of you works , you seem to find this strange whys that?

Now try to understand: if you already have knowledge of the area ; let say there is a tree or a cave or whatever to the side or back of you that you can not see, from the view where you are sitting, then that added scenery, the tree or cave is added into the memory as you recall yourself painting the lake

What the hell are you rantings about? If I'm painting the lake I see in front of me why do I need  to know about   added scenery to the side of me?

Are you on drugs? Seriously your posts get more and more crazy.



. This is about the fifth or sixth time i answered this question. I am not going to explain that question again. if you still fail to understand it, then is your problem, not min

No trust me mate the " problem " is solely yours , you're  quiet insane. 

maxx

forget it dee. i am not going to play your game. I will wait for mays reply. At least he understands what I am saying. I have given you plenty of opportunities to discuss this in a normal manner, yet you refuse to.  I suggest you lay off the cheap wine while on this site.. go earn your points elsewhere. @Dee

Dee

@maxx

  I suggest you lay off the cheap wine while on this site

I actually favour mid range price Malbecs .I'm sure  landscape painters across the world will embrace your theory that they're doing it wrong because they are not taking the view at the side into account when they're painting the scene in front of them ,seriously ?

ZeusAres42

The argument suggesting that human memories are predominantly recalled from a third-person perspective is an interesting one, yet it doesn't completely align with current understanding of memory and cognition.

Most people actually remember events from a first-person perspective, meaning they recall experiences as they saw and lived them, through their own eyes. This first-person recall is the norm for how memories are typically encoded and retrieved.

However, third-person memories, where individuals see themselves as if they were observers, do happen but are less common. Such memories might occur for several reasons, including the reconstructive nature of memory, emotional detachment, or the influence of external media like photographs or videos.

It's crucial to understand that memory isn't a perfect recording. It's reconstructive, which means each time a memory is recalled, it can be altered or influenced by the current mental state, environment, or other memories. This reconstructive process can lead to memories being recalled in the third person, especially if the memory has been repeatedly discussed, imagined, or visualized from an external viewpoint.

Emotional factors also play a role. For instance, highly emotional or traumatic events are sometimes remembered from a third-person perspective, possibly as a coping mechanism allowing some emotional detachment.

The influence of external media is another factor. The way movies and photographs present scenes can affect how people recall their own memories. Seeing pictures or videos of an event can lead individuals to start recalling that event from the perspective shown in these images.

Additionally, cultural and individual differences might impact how memories are recalled. Some research indicates that in cultures where the community is emphasized more than the individual, third-person memories may be more prevalent.