Is Christianity a copy cat religion?

Factfinder

just_sayin said:

MayCaesar said:

The obvious thing Christians systematically miss is that if "god" truly created the entire Universe, then said "god" also caused everything that happened in this Universe. For instance, every time someone murders someone else, they do so because the Universe "god" created led them to do so.

That is yet another reason why I find comparison between Christianity and Communism so apt: in both the idea of central planning is venerated. In the former the "god" is the central planner, while in the latter it is the Central Committee. In both cases mere plebs like you and me are nothing but cogs in the machine. The idea of individual sovereignty is not even on the radar here. And Communists, at least, do not subject those who have displeased them to eternal torment: one's tenure in Gulags is going to eventually end as their mind and body will give up. Stalin who has murdered tens of millions seems quite innocent, compared to a creature that allegedly has sent billions upon billions of humans (and, perhaps, lesser animals too?) to be tortured for eternity. And we do not even know if there are alien species out there... What if the Universe has trillions of civilizations, each supplying "Hell" with billions to trillions of souls every Solar year?

I am not sure what love someone can hold for a creature like this, unless their psychology is completely twisted. It seems to me that if "god" really existed, then it would be byfar the most vicious creature in the entire Multiverse, and slaying the beast would be the greatest accomplishment. In such a Multiverse whoever comes up with technology that can kill "god" is the greatest liberator ever to live.

I disagree with your false logic.  Your momma created you, but bless her heart, she isn't responsible for the things you now do.  God created us as free moral agents.  You have free will.  You can live your life without acknowledging God and the decisions you make will have effects in this universe.  That's far from the view that there is no individual sovereignty. You are free to choose.  That's certainly not the Russian way.

You doubt that someone who is a Christian can feel love for a being who has saved them, answers their prayers, comforts them when life pressures build up.  If someone has been gracious to you, it is easy to love them.  I am always amazed at how wrong atheists can be and how they can project their own false view of the world onto others.   

I disagree with your false logic.  Your momma created you, but bless her heart, she isn't responsible for the things you now do.  God created us as free moral agents.  You have free will.  You can live your life without acknowledging God and the decisions you make will have effects in this universe.  That's far from the view that there is no individual sovereignty. You are free to choose.  That's certainly not the Russian way.

You doubt that someone who is a Christian can feel love for a being who has saved them, answers their prayers, comforts them when life pressures build up.  If someone has been gracious to you, it is easy to love them.  I am always amazed at how wrong atheists can be and how they can project their own false view of the world onto others.   

Wrong again. Do you read your bible? God creates ,we procreate, big difference bible wise. What you call 'free moral gents' is in reality "bend the knee or else". Why do you avoid that fact of scripture? Could it be there is no way to spin it other than to make the delusional claim it's our freewill to be put in that position and decide from only those two choices? That is not an example of free agency. In any sane reality that is. 

You pray to an imaginary god, have absolutely no quid pro quo pattern of definitive 'prayer answering' that can be verified independently, same said god gets history and science wrong in its inspired word, you admit you have no morals of your own as they stem from the same fallible book; THEN you project your anger onto others for their calm rationale rejection of your myths and make silly accusations that they are angry at your fantasy god. Not to mention always misrepresenting what people say. To claim that as 'forcing world views onto you' is the height of Christian hypocrisy.

RickeyHoltsclaw

@Factfinder ;  You're free to honor Elohim as your Creator or honor Satan as your god...these are the two-choices given you within the Realm of Time...if you deny Jesus, you serve Satan and you will suffer a fate similar to his subsequent Judgment. You are decaying corpse fit for the grave and for Hell and you're too arrogant and too foolish to understand your plight.

Factfinder

RickeyHoltsclaw said:

@Factfinder ;  You're free to honor Elohim as your Creator or honor Satan as your god...these are the two-choices given you within the Realm of Time...if you deny Jesus, you serve Satan and you will suffer a fate similar to his subsequent Judgment. You are decaying corpse fit for the grave and for Hell and you're too arrogant and too foolish to understand your plight.

A choice between only two options meant to achieve forced compliance is not a free choice despite delusional pleas to the contrary. 

RickeyHoltsclaw

@Factfinder ;  Elohim did not create or program you to believe in Him...actually, it's commonsense but He understands the fallen nature of humanity and is aware that an overwhelming majority will live in narcissism and selfishness and reject the evidence He has provided and the love and care He desires to provide....He left that up to us....to choose.

You, in the insanity of atheism, are an example to the faithful angelic creation of the rebellion and arrogance that initiated the creation narrative...you have done your part.

Factfinder

RickeyHoltsclaw said:

@Factfinder ;  Elohim did not create or program you to believe in Him...actually, it's commonsense but He understands the fallen nature of humanity and is aware that an overwhelming majority will live in narcissism and selfishness and reject the evidence He has provided and the love and care He desires to provide....He left that up to us....to choose.

You, in the insanity of atheism, are an example to the faithful angelic creation of the rebellion and arrogance that initiated the creation narrative...you have done your part.

Yes, the same 'common sense' that thinks the world is flat, the sun revolves around the earth, and volcanoes are gods.

RickeyHoltsclaw

@Factfinder ;  The same commonsense that has the wisdom and discernment to see the supernatural World around them and know that its genesis was NOT happen-chance.

Factfinder

RickeyHoltsclaw said:

@Factfinder ;  The same commonsense that has the wisdom and discernment to see the supernatural World around them and know that its genesis was NOT happen-chance.

You've admitted you have no clue what discernment is and don't use it especially when you were called to a crime scene. Why are you lying now? 

RickeyHoltsclaw

@Factfinder ; There are no contradictions...only an absence of study-diligence and understanding. Elohim set dietary restrictions for Israel's children to separate them from the practices of the pagan tribes surrounding them and seeking Israel's spiritual compromise with Baal and Molech. Though Christian's are free to eat all things, even they were prohibited from engaging in certain foods and traditions of the pagans via the Jerusalem Council in Acts 15...you really should study and not die Hell...trust in Jesus and find life and understanding. 

 

MayCaesar

In the Dungeons and Dragons universe, there is an extremely evil and vicious goddess, Lolth, who rules over the dark elves living deep underground. She constantly pits the noble houses against each other, encourages backstabbing and covert murders, sides with one house temporarily to lead it to its glory, then gets other houses to destroy it... The priestesses partake in the most wicked violent and sexual rituals honoring her.

The most famous runaway from that society, Drizzt Do'Urden, often wondered which took precedence. Was it Lolth that perverted his people and made them live this way? Or was it the other way around, the people themselves being so wicked that Lolth could not help but offer them her patronage? Or a mix of both? His conclusion was the latter.

I think that on Earth religions like Islam or Christianity that drowned multiple continents in blood and enslaved billions of people over the course of history are also a mix of both: natural wickedness of some human societies that could not find a better way to survive than to subdue everyone around them, and fantasies of some philosophers layered on top of that. If Saudi Arabia was secular, it would likely not be as brutal a society as it is; if it was still religious, but populated by, say, Americans, then it also would not be a brutal society. A combination of people with a fairly hard history and a really bad religion-philosophy though produced the society that it did.

I do not think that bad religions and ideologies somehow take over human minds. Rather, they find hook points in already corrupted minds and latch onto them, producing a deadly synergy. There are religions and ideologies that have not learned how to do that, and they were erased by the waves of history - and there are human minds that are resistant to such latching or not particularly corrupt, and most of them had been subdued historically by others. It is quite a tragedy that over the past few thousand years the incredible technological, scientific, cultural and exploratory progress was stained by these things. One historian suggested that we could have had electricity by 300 AD were it not for religion and other totalitarian ideologies diverting humans from the path of enlightenment to the path of servitude and carnage.

Factfinder

RickeyHoltsclaw said:

@Factfinder ; There are no contradictions...only an absence of study-diligence and understanding. Elohim set dietary restrictions for Israel's children to separate them from the practices of the pagan tribes surrounding them and seeking Israel's spiritual compromise with Baal and Molech. Though Christian's are free to eat all things, even they were prohibited from engaging in certain foods and traditions of the pagans via the Jerusalem Council in Acts 15...you really should study and not die Hell...trust in Jesus and find life and understanding. 

 

You're busily explaining why contradictions exists while at the same time lying and saying there are none. Classic thoughtless double digit iq response ricky style.  A faith that you constantly lie about isn't worth having. Have you read the bible, yes or no? 

The women hurried away from the tomb, afraid yet filled with joy, and ran to tell his disciples (Matthew 28:8).

Trembling and bewildered, the women went out and fled from the tomb. They said nothing to anyone, because they were afraid. (Mark 16:8)

Cain is worried after killing Abel and says, "Every one who finds me shall slay me." This is a strange concern since there were only two other humans alive at the time -- his parents! 4:14 "And Cain went out from the presence of the LORD." 4:16 "And Cain knew his wife." That's nice, but where the hell did she come from? 4:17 

Joeseph

@Factfinder

HA ,HA .....NAILED IT .......OH OH HE MIGHT THINK I MEAN JESUS 

Joeseph

@RickeyHoltsclaw

MayCaesar

@Joeseph

It ultimately came down to Adam and Eve trying to lose weight and being on a vegan diet. Had they been on a carnivore diet instead, well...

21CenturyIconoclast

@RickeyHoltsclaw

As we have seen, Rickey cannot address my disturbing bible posts anymore, therefore he has to use his child like excuse to RUN AWAY from them embarrassingly shown herewith: "Still waiting for a succinct, comprehensible, relevant, premise, from Satan's servant."

Therefore, there is absolutely no need for discussion with this Bible FOOL Rickey anymore as I easily embarrass him over his Bronze and Iron Age bible, where he has to go into HIDING again, and AGAIN, and AGAIN!



RICKEYHOLTSCLAW'S BIBLE MORALITY 101

JESUS’ INSPIRED WORDS TO MURDER A WIFE THAT IS NOT A VIRGIN UPON MARRIAGE:  “If, however, the charge is true and no proof of the young woman’s virginity can be found, she shall be brought to the door of her father’s house and there the men of her town shall stone her to death. She has done an outrageous thing in Israel by being promiscuous while still in her father’s house. You must purge the evil from among you.” (Deuteronomy 22:20-21)

Jesus as god says that the verse above is to be followed without any doubt today: “But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by EVERY word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.” (Matthew 4:4)

Hopefully Rickey Holtsclaw will not have a daughter that was not a virgin on her wedding day, and night, because for him to be a TRUE Christian, then when his daughters husband and friends would have to bring her to Rickey's house, where as Jesus says, they shall STONE HER TO DEATH!

WHAT 21ST CENTURY WOMAN WANTS TO JOIN THE PRIMITIVE BRONZE AND IRON AGE RELIGION OF
CHRISTIANITY, RAISE YOU HANDS!  LOL!!!

.

Factfinder

MayCaesar said:

In the Dungeons and Dragons universe, there is an extremely evil and vicious goddess, Lolth, who rules over the dark elves living deep underground. She constantly pits the noble houses against each other, encourages backstabbing and covert murders, sides with one house temporarily to lead it to its glory, then gets other houses to destroy it... The priestesses partake in the most wicked violent and sexual rituals honoring her.

The most famous runaway from that society, Drizzt Do'Urden, often wondered which took precedence. Was it Lolth that perverted his people and made them live this way? Or was it the other way around, the people themselves being so wicked that Lolth could not help but offer them her patronage? Or a mix of both? His conclusion was the latter.

I think that on Earth religions like Islam or Christianity that drowned multiple continents in blood and enslaved billions of people over the course of history are also a mix of both: natural wickedness of some human societies that could not find a better way to survive than to subdue everyone around them, and fantasies of some philosophers layered on top of that. If Saudi Arabia was secular, it would likely not be as brutal a society as it is; if it was still religious, but populated by, say, Americans, then it also would not be a brutal society. A combination of people with a fairly hard history and a really bad religion-philosophy though produced the society that it did.

I do not think that bad religions and ideologies somehow take over human minds. Rather, they find hook points in already corrupted minds and latch onto them, producing a deadly synergy. There are religions and ideologies that have not learned how to do that, and they were erased by the waves of history - and there are human minds that are resistant to such latching or not particularly corrupt, and most of them had been subdued historically by others. It is quite a tragedy that over the past few thousand years the incredible technological, scientific, cultural and exploratory progress was stained by these things. One historian suggested that we could have had electricity by 300 AD were it not for religion and other totalitarian ideologies diverting humans from the path of enlightenment to the path of servitude and carnage.

It all seems to me to be part of the evolutionary process. Ants, bees, rodents, birds flying in formation, chimps, wolves, lions, wild dogs...all animals who have developed a communal hierarchy of some kind and kill other members of the same species to protect the status quo. It appears to develop naturally.  A smaller male black widow spider knows it's likely to become a meal should it mate yet it approaches the female cautiously anyway as the drive to procreate thereby preserving the species overwhelms the male. Of course humans with their big brains have the ability to pervert the process in order to not just preserve the species but personal status within the species as well lending a stronger emphasis on self preservation. Our brains simply bring natural selection to an acute level of preservation that stalls technological advances. That is my theory.

Joeseph

@MayCaesar


Ha, Ha ......I think god may have   overreacted a tad .....LOL

Joeseph

@21CenturyIconoclast ;

That's what Rickey calls getting stoned.

RickeyHoltsclaw

@Joeseph @MayCaesar @Factfinder ; you're all headed to judgement and you will die in Hell and you're only increasing your liability, your punishment, with every careless word.

Factfinder

@RickeyHoltsclaw

Christianity copied Greek mythology as well as others. Grown ups with educations understand this fact. When will you ricky? You love believing and repeating

lies? https://www.britannica.com/topic/Christianity/History-of-Christian-myth-and-legend

https://greekgodsparadise.com/2020/10/15/greek-myths-bible/#3_The_Judgement_of_Paris_versus_Adam_and_Eve

Poseidon versus the Devi

Hades versus Hell

Hercules versus Samson

Athena (Athens) versus Jesus (Jerusalem)

RickeyHoltsclaw

@Factfinder ; NO, Christianity is NOT a copy of Greek Mythology.

Was Christianity Copied from Pagan Myths?

By James M. Rochford

Many skeptics today claim that the resurrection of Jesus originated from pagan myths about “dying and rising” gods—commonly called the “copycat theory” of Christianity. James G. Frazer popularized this view in his book The Golden Bough (1914),[1] though more recently, others have followed in his footsteps.[2]

Atheistic documentaries like Brian Flemming’s The God Who Wasn’t There (2005), Peter Joseph’s Zeitgeist (2007), and Bill Maher’s Religulous (2008) all have purported the view that the early Christians borrowed the concept of the resurrection from pagan myths about “dying and rising gods” (e.g. Dionysus, Mithra, Baal, Adonis, Attis, Demeter, Persephone, Aphrodite, Isis, Osiris).

Did Christianity copy its core doctrines from Pagan myths? What should we think of this common skeptical claim?

Criticized by fellow skeptics

Dr. Mettinger (a Swedish professor at Lund University) has written the most comprehensive account of the dying and rising god motif. He himself affirms the concept of “dying and rising gods.”[3] Yet he concedes that he is in the strict minority: “There is now what amounts to a scholarly consensus against the appropriateness of the concept [of dying and rising gods]. Those who still think differently are looked upon as residual members of an almost extinct species… Major scholars in the fields of comparative religion and the Bible find the idea of dying and rising deities suspect or untenable.”[4] For instance, Jonathan Z. Smith (historian from the University of Chicago) writes, “All the deities that have been identified as belonging to the class of dying and rising deities can be subsumed under the two larger classes of disappearing deities or dying deities. In the first case, the deities return but have not died; in the second case, the gods die but do not return.”[5]

Skeptic Matt Dillahunty (of Atheist Experience) writes, “The first third of the film (Zeitgeist) is an unscholarly, sophomoric, horribly flawed, over-simplification that tries to portray Christianity as nothing more than the next incarnation of the astrologically themed religions that preceded it. Like all conspiracy theories, they combine a few facts, focus on correlations and build an intriguing story that seems to fit the pieces together nicely—provided you don’t actually dig below the surface to find out where they might have gone wrong.”

Regarding the Cross and Atonement, atheistic critical scholar Bart Ehrman writes, “Where do any of the ancient sources speak of a divine man who was crucified as an atonement for sin? So far as I know, there are no parallels to the central Christian claim. What has been invented here is not the Christian Jesus but the mythicist claims about Jesus… The majority of scholars agree… there is no unambiguous evidence that any pagans prior to Christianity believed in dying and rising gods.” He adds, “None of this literature is written by scholars trained in the New Testament.”[7]

No causal influence

Even if there were parallels between paganism and Christianity were true (which they are not), the skeptic would need to show that these myths had an influence on Christianity in some way. Yet Christian philosopher Mark Foreman writes, “There is no evidence of pagan mystery religions existing in Palestine in the first century… Judaism was an extremely exclusive monotheistic religion and would not have tolerated the syncretism of the mystery religions. Christianity was even more exclusivistic and has often been referred to as the ‘anti-mystery’ religion.”[8] Likewise, atheistic critic Bart Ehrman writes, “Anyone who thinks that Jesus was modeled on such deities needs to cite some evidence—any evidence at all—that Jews in Palestine at the alleged time of Jesus’s life were influenced by anyone who held such views.”[9]

Foreman offers a thought-experiment of living 2,000 years in the future. A handful of documents exist to attest to the American presidents JFK and Abraham Lincoln. Someone points to the parallels between the two.[10] David E. Anderson gives several parallels:

1. Both Lincoln and Kennedy were elected to Congress in ‘46 (1846 in Lincoln’s case, 1946 in Kennedy’s). Both became President in ‘60.
2. Both had lazy eye muscles which would cause one eye to wander.
3. Both had been skippers on boats (Lincoln on the Mississippi river boat ‘Talisman’ and Kennedy on the PT-109)
4. Both were the second sons in their families. Each lost a sister to death before becoming President. Both married 24-year-old brunettes who had been previously engaged to other men, and who spoke French fluently.
5. Both had a child die while living in the White House.
6. Both were related to U.S. Senators, U.S. Attorney Generals who graduated from Harvard, and ambassadors to the Court of St. James.
7. Both were acquaintances of a man named Adlai E. Stevenson who ran for either Vice-President or President, a doctor named Charles Taft and a man named William Graham.
8. Both were advised not to go to the place where they died.
9. Both Lincoln’s theater box and Kennedy’s car were altered for their benefit (Lincoln’s theater box had a partition removed to accomodate his party, Kennedy’s car had a raised rear seat)
10. Both were slain on a Friday before a major Holiday (Lincoln on the Friday before Easter, Kennedy on the Friday before Thanksgiving). Both were shot while sitting next to their wives and in the presence of another couple. Of the other couple, the man was also wounded by the assassin, but neither wife was wounded.
11. Both were shot from behind and in the head. Both of their wives cradled their husband’s heads after they were shot.
12. John Wilkes Booth shot Lincoln from inside a theater, and fled to a warehouse. Lee Harvey Oswald shot Kennedy from inside a warehouse and fled to a theater.
13. Lincoln was shot while inside the Ford theater, in box 7. Kennedy was shot while inside a Ford automobile, in car 7 in the motorcade.
14. Both were pronounced dead in places with the initials P.H. (Lincoln in the Peterson House, and Kennedy in Parkland Hospital)
15. Both of their assassins escaped, and were killed before going to trial.
16. Both of their assassins were privates in the military. Each was detained after the shooting by a policeman named Baker. Both were eventually killed by a Colt revolver.
17. Both Lincoln and Kennedy were succeeded by southern ex-senators named Johnson who were born in ‘08. Both Johnsons were in their mid-fifties when they took the office and both suffered from urethral stones (the only presidents to have them). Both Johnsons could have run for re-election in ‘68, but chose not to.

Do these parallels invalidate the existence of John F. Kennedy? Of course not! In order to argue this, we would need to show that one caused or influenced the other. In the same way, even if Christian parallels existed with pagan mythology, the skeptic would need to show how these caused the Christian beliefs.

The pagan worldview despised the concept of resurrection

Neo-Platonism largely influenced Pagan thinking about the resurrection of the body. In the neo-Platonic worldview, the material world was considered evil and repugnant, while the immaterial world was considered pure and enlightened. When someone died, their immaterial and pure soul escaped from the prison of the body on a one-way street to the afterlife. Neo-Platonists were offended by the notion of a physical resurrection, because this meant that the evil and disgusting body would be reanimated after death. Nothing could be more offensive to a Pagan thinker.

The Greeks considered the message of the gospel “foolishness” (1 Cor. 1:23). (The Greek term is morian is the root from which we get our term “moronic.”) Likewise, in Paul’s speech at Mars Hill, the Greek thinkers respectfully listened to Paul’s case for Christianity until he came to the evidence for the resurrection. Then we read, “Now when they heard of the resurrection of the dead, some began to sneer” (Acts 17:32). Historian N.T. Wright explains, “This same sort of denial of bodily resurrection is also there in Homer, Plato, and Pliny, and it is there consistently through a thousand years of paganism, up to and through the time of Jesus.”[11]

Where did this “copycat” interpretation originate?

The History of Religions School (German Religionsgeschichtliche Schule) was a collection of German theologians from the University of Göttingen in the 1890s. This school of thought sought to interpret Jesus through the lens of paganism, rather than Judaism. For instance, Richard Reitzenstein (one of the major proponent of this school) published this subject in his 1910 book Hellenistic Mystery Religions. Instead of understanding Jesus as the Jewish Messiah, these scholars interpreted him as pagan.

Yet the NT explains that Jesus:

• was the ancestor of David and Abraham (Mt. 1:1), from the tribe of Judah (Heb. 7:14), and circumcised on the “eighth day” (Lk. 1:59).
• had a regular “custom” of going to synagogue (Lk. 4:16), and taught in the Jewish Temple (Lk. 21:37).
• found celebrating Hanukkah (Jn. 10:22) and Passover (Jn. 2:13).
• was called a “rabbi” by his disciples (Jn. 4:31), Nicodemus (Jn. 3:2), Mary (Jn. 20:16), and the crowds (Jn. 6:25).
• was called “the King of the Jews” (Mt. 2:2; 27:11), said “salvation is from the Jews” (Jn. 4:22), and was quickly recognized as Jewish by the woman at the well (Jn. 4:9).
• spoke to Paul “in Hebrew” (Acts 26:14)—even though Paul understood Greek (Acts 21:37).
• believed in the entirety of the Hebrew law (Mt. 5:17).

How could these scholars ever conclude that Jesus was pagan, rather than Jewish? How could they misunderstand such a clear interpretive grid like this? Of course, we would be naïve to think that the rampant anti-Semitism in Germany had nothing to do with this entire school of thought! Sadly, skeptics today have bought into this same exact method of interpretation.

Differences between Christ’s resurrection and pagan resurrection

When we do find apparent cases of “dying and rising” gods in Pagan mythology, these always mimic the seasons of the spring and fall harvest. The Pagan cults would perform plays each year to bring in the spring harvest and yearly cycle of the seasons. These were not based in history, nor did they deal with physical resurrection. Mettinger (of Lund University) writes, “The gods that die and rise have close ties to the seasonal cycle of plant life.”[12] Wright explains,

Did any worshipper in these cults… think that actual human beings, having died, actually came back to life? Of course not. These multifarious and sophisticated cults enacted the god’s death and resurrection as a metaphor, whose concrete referent was the cycle of seed-time and harvest, of human reproduction and fertility.[13]

Even James Frazer (the popularizer of this “copycat” view) writes, “Under the names of Osiris, Tammuz, Adonis, and Attis, the peoples of Egypt and Western Asia represented the yearly decay and revival of life, especially of vegetable life, which they personified as a god who annually died and rose again from the dead.”[14] There is a big difference between a person dying and coming back to life and the gods “dying” in the fall and “resurrecting” in the spring each year. These weren’t literal reports of corpses coming back to life; they were metaphors for the yearly crop cycle.

Mettinger gives three key differences between the Christian view of resurrection and the pagan myths:

(1) “The figures we have studied are deities. In the case of Jesus, we are confronted with a human (for whom divinity was claimed by himself and by his followers).”[15]

(2) “The dying and rising gods were closely related to the seasonal cycle. Their death and return were seen as reflected in the changes of plant life. Their death and return were seen as reflected in the changes of plant life. The death and resurrection of Jesus is a one-time event, not repeated, and unrelated to seasonal changes.”[16] (3) “The death of Jesus is presented in the sources as vicarious suffering, as an act of atonement for sins… There is no evidence for the death of the dying and rising gods as vicarious suffering for sins.”[17]

Mettinger concludes his book: “There is, as far as I am aware, no prima facie evidence that the death and resurrection of Jesus is a mythological construct, drawing on myths and rites of the dying and rising gods of the surrounding world. While studied with profit against the background of Jewish resurrection belief, the faith in the death and resurrection of Jesus retains its unique character in the history of religions. The riddle remains.”[18]

What about Justin Martyr?

Atheistic websites often quote Justin Martyr (a second century Christian apologist) as comparing Jesus’ death and resurrection with Pagan gods that predate him. Martyr wrote, “And when we say also that [Jesus]… was crucified and died, and rose again, and ascended into heaven, we propound nothing different from what you believe regarding those whom you esteem sons of Zeus.”[19]

This passage from Justin Martyr appears to claim that Pagans believed in Christian doctrines like resurrection. However, if you read the context of Martyr’s 21st chapter, you will see that he was actually comparing the fact that the Pagan gods had sons with the Christian God having a son. Martyr couldn’t be comparing the fact that Zeus died and rose from the dead, because Zeus never died! In fact, later in chapter 55, Martyr points out that none of these gods were crucified like Jesus. In chapters 22 through 29, he argues for the superiority of Jesus over these myths. Martyr believed that there were some similarities between Christianity and Paganism, but he thought that these could be accounted for by demons misinterpreting Old Testament prophecy regarding Jesus. Of course, these speculations were flat wrong, but at least we have seen that his writing doesn’t support antecedent beliefs in Pagan resurrection.

Poor pagan parallels

Let’s consider several of the proposed examples of “copycat” doctrines from pagan mythology.

Horus

He was the patron god of Egypt, and the son of Isis and Osiris.

Horus was not crucified. He died by a snake poisoning him in the Delta Swamps, causing his death.[20] In some accounts, he is merely poisoned, but not dead.[21]

Horus did not have 12 disciples. Edward Winston (of the Skeptic Project) writes, “Horus did not have 12 disciples, rather he had four semi-divine disciples… One can also find reference to an unnumbered group of followers called the Mesniu (blacksmiths) who accompanied Horus into some of his battles, but no where can 12 of anything be found.”

Horus was not born of a virgin. His mother (Isis) and father (Osiris) were married. Isis copulated with Osiris’ dead body to produce Horus. In Plutarch’s later account (2nd century AD), we read that Isis and Osiris had a prenatal incestuous relationship: “Isis and Osiris were enamoured of each other and consorted together in the darkness of the womb before their birth. Some say that Arueris came from this union and was called the elder Horus by the Egyptians, but Apollo by the Greeks.”[22]

Attis

He was a Greek deity, who was worshipped as the god of vegetation.

He was not born of a virgin. Foreman writes, “Attis is conceived when Zeus spilled his seed on the side of the mountain which eventually became a pomegranate tree.”[23] Winston (of the Skeptic Project) writes, “Attis was not necessarily born of a virgin (because it does not say whether or not his mother is a virgin), in fact Attis was born of Nana after she ate the fruit of an almond tree which had been grown from the blood of either Agdistis or Cybele.”

Attis was not resurrected. Richmond Hathorn (professor Classics at the University of Kentucky) writes, “Attis’ blood became violets, and he himself turned into a pine-tree.”[24] Walter Burket (a professor of classics at the University of Zurich) writes, “The evidence of resurrection is… practically nonexistent in the case of Attis.”[25] Winston (of the Skeptic Project) writes, “Attis was worshipped as the god of vegetation, responsible for death and rebirth of plant life. It was thought that each winter he died and in the spring he was reborn. Each spring his resurrection would be celebrated.”

Attis was not crucified. Jan Bremmer (associate professor at the University of Utrecht) writes, “Attis cut off [his] sexual organs.”[26] Thus Attis died by castration—not crucifixion. Other traditions claim he was “killed by a boar.”[27]

Adonis

He comes from Greek mythology, thought to be incredibly beautiful and the favorite of the goddess Aphrodite.

Adonis was not crucified. He was gored by a wild boar.[28]

Adonis was not born of a virgin. Instead, his mother Myrrha slept with her father twelve times. The gods turned her into the “myrrh-tree.” In The Routledge Handbook of Greek Mythology, Robin Hard writes, “After the usual time of gestation for a human child, the bark of the tree broke open and Adonis was brought to birth.”[29]

Adonis was not resurrected. Walter Burket (a professor of classics at the University of Zurich) writes, “The evidence of resurrection is late and tenuous in the case of Adonis.”[30] Sappho (7th century BC) wrote a poem about Adonis, containing his death, but not his resurrection.[31] Lucian of Samosata (2nd century AD) writes,

They assert that the legend about Adonis and the wild boar is true, and that the facts occurred in their country, and in memory of this calamity they beat their breasts and wail every year, and perform their secret ritual amid signs of mourning through the whole countryside. When they have finished their mourning and wailing, they sacrifice in the first place to Adonis, as to one who has departed this life: after this they allege that he is alive again, and exhibit his effigy to the sky. They proceed to shave their heads, too, like the Egyptians on the loss of their Apis.[32]

Lucian goes on to say that “a human head comes every year from Egypt to Byblos, floating on its seven days’ journey.” He also notes that the River Adonis is stained with blood “every year” to commemorate Adonis’ death once again.[33] Theocritus (a 3rd century AD poet) explains that Adonis is revived once a year at the turn of the seasons. As you can see, Adonis’ “resurrected” coincided with the seasonal cycles—not resurrection from the dead in the biblical sense.

MayCaesar

Factfinder said:

It all seems to me to be part of the evolutionary process. Ants, bees, rodents, birds flying in formation, chimps, wolves, lions, wild dogs...all animals who have developed a communal hierarchy of some kind and kill other members of the same species to protect the status quo. It appears to develop naturally.  A smaller male black widow spider knows it's likely to become a meal should it mate yet it approaches the female cautiously anyway as the drive to procreate thereby preserving the species overwhelms the male. Of course humans with their big brains have the ability to pervert the process in order to not just preserve the species but personal status within the species as well lending a stronger emphasis on self preservation. Our brains simply bring natural selection to an acute level of preservation that stalls technological advances. That is my theory.

This is an astute observation. What evolution really does is, contrary to the popular view, not promotion of survival of the individual, but of survival of the species, often at the expense of the individual. However strange it might look at the first glance, maximizing the odds of survival of each individual member of the species does not necessarily lead to maximization of survivability of the species: no member is going to live forever, and in order for the species to exist for extended periods of time, the need of continuous procreation must be put before the need of the individual organism to survive and thrive. This is why sex is so immensely pleasurable among all animal species partaking in it, and this is why some of the worst decisions (from the individual perspective) we all make in life are because of love and sex. The suicidal spiders are an extreme example, but to some extent all animals reproducing via mating do something like that.

Humans build some societies that are a hell to live in, but they feature certain stability which leads to them dominating over more individualistically-minded societies in many cases. North Korea is a much worse society to live in than South Korea, so one could ask a very obvious question: "How can they coexist on the same peninsula?" But North-Korean society is extremely ordered, and while every North-Korean's life is pretty miserable, procreation keeps happening - in fact, it is scientifically planned and optimized.

Religion provides its adopters certain primal-level benefits that higher modes of thinking do not. Someone aptly called it "Fast food of philosophy". It grants one the sense of immediate relief and satisfaction and creates the most loyal customers imaginable, all the while being extremely harmful to the adopter.

RickeyHoltsclaw

@Factfinder @MayCaesar ; Continued...Part 2:

Krishna

He is one of the most venerated Hindu deities, thought to be the eighth avatar of Vishnu.

Krishna’s birth was not signaled by a star from the East. Edward Winston (of the Skeptic Project) writes, “There is no mention of a star in the east signaling his birth in the literature, [and] was not resurrected upon his death.”

Krishna’s name is not similar to “Christ.” While Krishna and Christ may sound phonetically similar, their names mean entirely different things. Krishna means, “Dark one” while Christ means, “Anointed One.” In our language they have similar transliterations, but these were completely different to the native speakers.

Krishna was not born of a virgin. Foreman writes, “Devaki, the mother of Krishna, had seven children before Krishna.”[34] Edward Winston (of the Skeptic Project) writes, “Krishna was of the royal family of Mathura, and was the eighth son born to the princess Devaki, and her husband Vasudeva.”

Krishna was not crucified. The Encyclopedia Britannica states, “As the god sat in the forest lamenting, a huntsman, mistaking him for a deer, shot him in his one vulnerable spot, the heel, killing him.” The Mahabharata reads, “A fierce hunter of the name of Jara then came there, desirous of deer. The hunter, mistaking [Krishna], who was stretched on the earth in high Yoga, for a deer, pierced him at the heel with a shaft and quickly came to that spot for capturing his prey. Coming up, Jara beheld a man dressed in yellow robes, rapt in Yoga and endued with many arms. Regarding himself an offender, and filled with fear, he touched the feet of [Krishna]. The high-souled one comforted him and then ascended upwards, filling the entire welkin with splendor.”[35]

Dionysus

This Greek god is also called Bacchus, the son of Zeus and Semele, who was worshipped as the god of wine and ecstasy.

Dionysus was not crucified. Some skeptics claim that Dionysus was crucified because of an amulet that was found, depicting his crucifixion. There are at least two problems with this view: (1) The image of this amulet is a drawing—not an actual photograph. The drawing used is itself a drawing of a previous drawing. The amulet itself was said to be lost during WW II. Robert Eisler (a critical scholar) has the drawing in his book Orpheus—the Fisher. He writes that A. Becker reproduced the drawing from plaster impressions of the Hematite seal-cylinder, which itself was an artistic rendition of the original amulet. (2) The amulet dates several centuries after Jesus of Nazareth. Eisler writes, “The ring-stone, which certainly belonged to an Orphic initiate, who had turned Christian without giving up completely his old religious beliefs, is attributed to the 3rd or the 4th century A.D. It cannot be much earlier in any case considering the late introduction of the crucifixus type into Christian art.”[36]

Dionysus was not born of a virgin. Ovid—the first century AD Roman poet—writes, “The infant Bacchus, still unfinished, is torn from the mother’s womb, and (if it can be believed) is sewn into his father’s thigh to complete his full term.”[37]

Dionysus was not born of an ordinary human woman. Semele (Dionysus’ mother) was Poseidon’s great-granddaughter, who was the great god of the sea.

Dionysus turned water into wine, but the earliest source is after Christ. The earliest primary source is Achilles Tatius, “The Adventures of Leucippe and Clitophon” which dates to the second century AD.

Dionysus was not resurrected. Dionysus was dismembered, eaten, and then sewn into the thigh of Zeus, where he was reborn from Zeus thigh. The comparison here doesn’t at all seem to square with the story of Jesus, and the similarities are vaguely connected at best. Edward Winston (of the Skeptic Project) writes, “Dionysus died each winter and was resurrected in the spring.”

Mithras

He was an ancient Indo-Iranian god of light. The belief in Mithras lasted until the fourth century AD with the Roman emperors Commodus, Julian, and Diocletian.

Mithraism is incredibly difficult to study. Mary Jo Sharp writes, “There are no substantive accounts of Mithras’s story, but rather a pieced-together story from inscriptions, depictions, and surviving Mithraea (man-made caverns of worship).”[38] Much of this “mystery religion” is only known from sculptures.

Mithras did not die for human sin. Instead, in the Roman system of Mithras, he sacrificed a bull. No theological significance is given to this act. Manfred Clauss writes, “We possess virtually no theological statements either by Mithraists themselves or by other writers.”[39] In his book on the subject Hellenistic Mystery Religions (1978), Richard Reitzenstein held that the sacrificing of the bull was similar to the Christian view of the atonement. Yet Christian scholar Edwin Yamauchi writes, “He thought the sacrifice of Christ aligned itself with the killing of a bull by Mithras. Carsten Colpe and others severely criticized the anachronistic use of sources by these scholars.”[40]

Mithras was not born of a virgin. Maarten Jozef Vermaseren (an expert in Mithraic studies at the University of Utrecht) writes, “Neither in the Western world did the authors conceive Mithras as a child procreated from a father or born from a woman or even from a virgin. Both classical literature and inscriptions declare that the god was born from a rock or a stone.”[41]

Mithras did not have 12 disciples. Edward Winston (of the Skeptic Project) writes, “There is absolutely no evidence anywhere that he had 12 disciples or 12 of anything for that matter—no Mithraist scholars seem to know about it.”

Mithras was not resurrected. Edward Winston (of the Skeptic Project) writes, “There is no evidence of a resurrection or that Mithra has ever died. Roman Mithraic evidence dates to at least a century after the time of the New Testament.” Even critical scholar Bart Ehrman writes, “We do not have Mithraic texts that explain it all to us, let alone texts that indicate that Mithras was born of a virgin on December 25 and that he died to atone for sins only to be raised on a Sunday.”[42]

Osiris

He was one of the most important deities of ancient Egypt. He was the god of fertility and the dead. The earliest full account of Osiris comes from Plutarch (“Concerning Isis and Osiris”), which dates to the second century AD. In the account, Osiris’ brother (Set) buries him a sarcophagus, drowning in the Nile River. Set dismembers Osiris’ dead body “into anything from fourteen to forty-two parts.”[43] He goes on to rule in the kingdom of the dead.[44]

Osiris was not resurrected. As argued above, he lived after death in the Egyptian Netherworld—not on Earth. Walter Burket (a professor of classics at the University of Zurich) writes, “Not even Osiris returns to life, but instead attains transcendent life beyond death.”[45]

Conclusion

Some skeptics spout that Christianity was copied from paganism. Yet when we survey the evidence, we discover that this is surely not the case. This conspiracy theory is (1) highly criticized by other atheists and skeptics of Christianity; (2) not supported by primary documents from paganism; (3) offers no causal explanation for the disciples’ beliefs about the birth, death, and resurrection of Jesus of Nazareth; (4) doesn’t fit with the neo-Platonic rejection of resurrection; and (5) is based on an anti-Semitic interpretive school that has been dead for the last century in NT studies.

The notion that Christianity copied from pagan myths turns out to be a myth itself.

Further Reading

Foreman, Mark. “Chapter 11: Challenging the Zeitgeist Movie: Parallelomania on Steroids.” Copan, Paul, and William Lane. Craig. Come Let Us Reason: New Essays in Christian Apologetics. Nashville, TN: B & H Academic, 2012.

Factfinder

@RickeyHoltsclaw

Do you have any comprehension of the fact that the concept of "rising from the dead" is not unique at all to Christianity?

RickeyHoltsclaw

@Factfinder ;  Jesus is the Firstborn via the resurrection of all who will be raised as he.

just_sayin

Some observations that our atheist friends have lied about:

1) Christianity, unlike other religions is rooted in a critical historical event - the resurrection.  If it is not true, then Christianity is falsified.  Other religions are not dependent upon a specific historical event being true or the whole religion collapses.  

2) There are many witnesses to the resurrection of Jesus and several of these individuals recorded that they saw the resurrected Christ in person and there are very early attestations to the resurrection - for example the Christian Creed in 1 Corinthians 15 3-7 is said to have been written within 18 months after the resurrection.

3) Christianity is grace based.  A Christian's eternal destiny has been settled AT THE START OF THE RELATIONSHIP with God.  While Christians may seek to live a moral life, their salvation is not dependent upon how good they are - in fact the premise of Christianity is that all of us are sinners and can't measure up to God's standard and are therefore in need of God's grace.  Some atheists have blatantly lied about this and claimed Christianity is by merit.  This is a lie.  Christianity is the only religion I know of where merit is not the standard of obtaining heaven/nirvana/enlightenment.  Instead, eternal life is freely given to those who ask God for forgiveness, again, this happens at the beginning of someone's induction into Christianity - not at the end.  

4) Christianity is unique in from other religions in that so many other religions seek to claim Christianity's founder, Jesus.  Many other religions claim Jesus was a follower of theirs or that he exhibited the qualities of their religion sure as moral purity.  The converse is not true.  How many Christians say Anton LeVay, leader of the atheistic church of satan is a Christian because his  calls for selfishness reflect the beliefs of Jesus?  None.  Even atheists on this site cringe, when it is pointed out that Anton leVay was one of them.

Atheist Anton LeVay

Factfinder

Some observations that our theist friends have lied about:

1) Christianity, just like other religions is rooted in different aspects of previous myths. - the resurrection.  If it is not true, then Christianity is falsified amongst other proves that's clearly falsified it as well.  Other religions are not dependent upon a specific historical event being true or the whole religion collapses and neither is Christianity as the resurrection is neither proved or unproved, just claimed. 

 2) There aren't any witnesses to the resurrection of Jesus and several of these individuals recorded that they saw the resurrected Christ in person and there are very early attestations to the resurrection - for example the Christian Creed in 1 Corinthians 15 3-7 is said to have been written within 18 months after the resurrection. According to this tradition only as any outside sources (nonbiblical eyewitnesses) are not recorded anywhere but in church literature. Some historians 50 to 150 or more years after the claims were made casually mention the cult and it's claims in a paragraph or two just as a side note to political strife. Nothing speaking to the impressiveness of the claims themselves at all. The only documented eyewitnesses are in the bible and the bible can not be an independent witness of itself. That'd be circular i.e. "it's true cause the bible says it's true and the bible says it's true so it's true"... just reflects childish thoughts, no more. The 'creed' is simply the bible says as Paul wrote 1 Corinthians...

The earliest known creed in Christianity, "Jesus is Lord", originated in the writings of Paul the Apostle.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creed#:~:text=The first confession of faith,the Early Church in 325.

Interesting side note: "creed" comes from the Latin word "credo" but with the time and place in question the predominate language was Aramaic followed by Greek and Hebrew. The scriptures were not put into Latin until like 3-4 centuries after the cultic claims were made! https://www.lancaster.ac.uk/users/yorkdoom/palweb/week05/douai.htm#:~:text=St Jerome translated the Bible,Testament against the Hebrew original. The much acclaimed Nicene creed and Apostle's creed were both codified in tradition 350-500 years after the claims. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostles'_Creed

3) Christianity is not grace based.  A Christian's eternal destiny has been settled since before the beginning with God according to scripture.  While Christians may seek to live a moral life, their salvation is not dependent upon how good they are, it is dependent on if they were 'chosen' or not. - in fact the premise of Christianity is that all of us are 'sinners' and can't measure up to God's standard and are therefore in need of God's grace to save from gods own jealous vengeance for being sinners. A made up word that is valueless in the real world but means biblically that you deserve eternal punishment for using freewill in a non criminal way.  Some Christians have blatantly lied about this and claimed Christianity is not by merit.  This is a lie.  Christianity is the only religion I know of where merit is the standard of obtaining heaven/nirvana/enlightenment via public pronouncement of illogical faith in an imaginary being coupled with complete submission to said imaginary being; merits saving grace.  Actually, eternal life is freely given to those who ask God for forgiveness, again, for an imaginary crime, hurting an imaginary gods feeling by coming to the logical conclusion god doesn't exist with the same mind this imaginary god supposedly gave us. And the punishment is sadistic and forever. Who would worship such evil if it were true?  This happens before the beginning of someone's induction into existence - not at the end.  

Jeremiah 1:5New International Version

5 “Before I formed you in the womb I knew[a] you,
    before you were born I set you apart;
    I appointed you as a prophet to the nations.”

Romans 8:28-30

King James Version

28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

No matter how one tries to spin Romans, if the word is infallible as claimed it has to be reconciled with Jeremiah.

4) Christianity isn't unique in from other religions because so many other religions seek to claim Christianity's founder, Jesus, no it's because so many other religions provided the inspiration for Christianity.  Many other religions claim Jesus was a follower of theirs or that he exhibited the qualities of their religion sure as moral purity.  The converse is true. What Christians really do is misrepresent facts, people and reality to ward off internal doubts that they believe could send them to hell. As an apostate my discloser of Christian malthesis and hypocrisy makes all Christians cringe.

Apostate of Christianity

RickeyHoltsclaw

@Factfinder @Joeseph

1) 2) The resurrection is the mainstay of the Gospel and the New Covenant as it was ordained "before Time began" (2 Timothy 1:8-10). The resurrection was witnessed by over 500-individuals (1 Corinthians 15:3-9)....the account is trustworthy and I believe by faith as I believe what the Holy Spirit has provided and I believe that I too will receive a resurrected body of glory and serve my resurrected Lord Jesus in the New Jerusalem, forever (Philippians 3:21).  

3) All of humanity is "chosen" and willed by Elohim to experience redemption by faith in Jesus; this, before the foundation of the World as per Ephesians 1:4....Elohim desires that all men be saved and come to a knowledge of the Truth in Jesus (1 Timothy 2:4); unfortunately, Jesus proclaims that only a relative "few" will choose to believe what the Father has promised through the Son (Matthew 7:13-14; John 3:16). The vast majority of humanity will die the "second death" in Hell via atheism, cults, religions, sects.

Elohim does not pick winners and losers, Elohim does not create "many" to die in Hell and a "few" to find life in Jesus but desires that all of humanity come to a knowledge of the Truth in Jesus via the Gospel (1 Timothy 2:4) and Elohim has infused free will, volition, in both His angelic and human creations in order that love and intimacy and personal relationship with Him can manifest with purity and authenticity...a reciprocal, divine, relationship for eternity.

4) Yeshua-Jesus is unique to Christianity; hence, "Christ" - Messiah - Savior. There is no religion, sect, cult, that offers what Christianity offers; that is, life in eternity with the Father by faith in Jesus the Son who offered Himself as blood atonement for the sins of humanity and only Jesus' innocent blood having poured into the sands of Golgotha has been declared as acceptable payment for the sins of humanity by the Father; therefore, nothing, no one, no works, no deeds, no amount of obedience to laws-edicts-rules-Torah-Sinai will engender New Covenant relationship with the Father but ONLY faith in the blood of Jesus as atonement for our sin; that is, a sincere belief-faith that Jesus is Messiah who died for our sin (John 3; Romans 10:9-10). 

 

just_sayin

Factfinder said:

Some observations that our theist friends have lied about:

1) Christianity, just like other religions is rooted in different aspects of previous myths. - the resurrection.  If it is not true, then Christianity is falsified amongst other proves that's clearly falsified it as well.  Other religions are not dependent upon a specific historical event being true or the whole religion collapses and neither is Christianity as the resurrection is neither proved or unproved, just claimed. 

 2) There aren't any witnesses to the resurrection of Jesus and several of these individuals recorded that they saw the resurrected Christ in person and there are very early attestations to the resurrection - for example the Christian Creed in 1 Corinthians 15 3-7 is said to have been written within 18 months after the resurrection. According to this tradition only as any outside sources (nonbiblical eyewitnesses) are not recorded anywhere but in church literature. Some historians 50 to 150 or more years after the claims were made casually mention the cult and it's claims in a paragraph or two just as a side note to political strife. Nothing speaking to the impressiveness of the claims themselves at all. The only documented eyewitnesses are in the bible and the bible can not be an independent witness of itself. That'd be circular i.e. "it's true cause the bible says it's true and the bible says it's true so it's true"... just reflects childish thoughts, no more. The 'creed' is simply the bible says as Paul wrote 1 Corinthians...

The earliest known creed in Christianity, "Jesus is Lord", originated in the writings of Paul the Apostle.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creed#:~:text=The first confession of faith,the Early Church in 325.

Interesting side note: "creed" comes from the Latin word "credo" but with the time and place in question the predominate language was Aramaic followed by Greek and Hebrew. The scriptures were not put into Latin until like 3-4 centuries after the cultic claims were made! https://www.lancaster.ac.uk/users/yorkdoom/palweb/week05/douai.htm#:~:text=St Jerome translated the Bible,Testament against the Hebrew original. The much acclaimed Nicene creed and Apostle's creed were both codified in tradition 350-500 years after the claims. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostles'_Creed

3) Christianity is not grace based.  A Christian's eternal destiny has been settled since before the beginning with God according to scripture.  While Christians may seek to live a moral life, their salvation is not dependent upon how good they are, it is dependent on if they were 'chosen' or not. - in fact the premise of Christianity is that all of us are 'sinners' and can't measure up to God's standard and are therefore in need of God's grace to save from gods own jealous vengeance for being sinners. A made up word that is valueless in the real world but means biblically that you deserve eternal punishment for using freewill in a non criminal way.  Some Christians have blatantly lied about this and claimed Christianity is not by merit.  This is a lie.  Christianity is the only religion I know of where merit is the standard of obtaining heaven/nirvana/enlightenment via public pronouncement of illogical faith in an imaginary being coupled with complete submission to said imaginary being; merits saving grace.  Actually, eternal life is freely given to those who ask God for forgiveness, again, for an imaginary crime, hurting an imaginary gods feeling by coming to the logical conclusion god doesn't exist with the same mind this imaginary god supposedly gave us. And the punishment is sadistic and forever. Who would worship such evil if it were true?  This happens before the beginning of someone's induction into existence - not at the end.  

Jeremiah 1:5

New International Version5 “Before I formed you in the womb I knew[a] you,
    before you were born I set you apart;
    I appointed you as a prophet to the nations.”
Romans 8:28-30King James Version28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
No matter how one tries to spin Romans, if the word is infallible as claimed it has to be reconciled with Jeremiah.

4) Christianity isn't unique in from other religions because so many other religions seek to claim Christianity's founder, Jesus, no it's because so many other religions provided the inspiration for Christianity.  Many other religions claim Jesus was a follower of theirs or that he exhibited the qualities of their religion sure as moral purity.  The converse is true. What Christians really do is misrepresent facts, people and reality to ward off internal doubts that they believe could send them to hell. As an apostate my discloser of Christian malthesis and hypocrisy makes all Christians cringe.

Apostate of Christianity

Once again you beclown yourself.  Well, Bitter the Clown let's address your fallacies




1 The resurrection has multiple witness attestations. Many of those who testified to the resurrection were killed for refusing to deny the resurrection such as James and Peter.  And many enemies of Christ have provided supplemental evidence that shows the accounts by the eye witnesses are reliable.  You have repeated the st-upid claim that if it is in the Bible it must be fake.  Those are words spoken in true ignorance.  Each witness claim must be considered on its own.  Just cause some bitter ole guy hates God, doesn't mean all the witnesses were lying.  In fact, Origen noted that even anti-Christian Phlegon said:

“Jesus, while alive, was of no assistance to himself, but that he arose after death, and exhibited the marks of his punishment, and showed how his hands had been pierced by nails.” (Origen Against Celsus, Book 2, Chapter 59)

2)  The earliest witness of the resurrection that we have today is the Christian creed found in 1 Corinthians 15:3-7. You beclowned yourself in your bitter rage by saying it isn't an early witness. Here is what the experts say:

1. James Dunn: Dunn, a Professor at Durham, stated that this tradition was formulated as a tradition within months of Jesus’ death in his book Jesus Remembered (Eerdmans, 2003).
2. Michael Goulder: An atheistic New Testament professor, Goulder believed the creed goes back at least to what Paul was taught when he was converted, a couple of years after the crucifixion, as mentioned in “The Baseless Fabric of a Vision” in Gavin D’Costa’s Resurrection Reconsidered (Oneworld, 1996).
3. A.J.M. Wedderburn: A Non-Christian New Testament professor at Munich, Wedderburn considered it right to speak of the creed as dating from the ‘earliest times’, most probably in the first half of the 30s, as noted in his book Beyond Resurrection (Hendrickson, 1999).
4. N.T. Wright: The Resurrection of the Son of God (Fortress, 2003), Wright, a prominent New Testament scholar, argued that the creed was likely formulated within the first two or three years after Easter.
5. Gerd Lüdemann: An atheistic NT professor at Göttingen, Lüdemann dates the elements in the tradition to the first two years after the crucifixion of Jesus, as mentioned in various sources. You can find his arguments in The Resurrection of Jesus: History, Experience, Theology (Fortress, 1994)

So we know that not only are there several reliable witnesses to the resurrection, the first written account is within 18 months of the resurrection itself.   Did you speak your lie in complete ignorance or in bitter anger against God?  Which was it?

3.  You said that a ' Christian's eternal destiny has been settled since before the beginning with God according to scripture.'  God who exists outside of space-time does indeed know the past future and present all at once.  Yet, his foreknowledge does not mean He made your decision for you. Those are 2 different things.  That is the lie you have repeated multiple times without any evidence to support it.  In fact the Bible says - 'for we are each responsible for our own conduct' - Galatians 6:5.  

The most fundamental claim of Christianity is that all have sinned and are in need of a savior.  We all fall short of God's standard.  You have become a caricature of the bitter old atheist consumed with anger toward God while simultaneously denying God exists.   

The good news is that all of your bad works can be forgiven in a moment and you can be the recipient of grace - ironic isn't it.

21CenturyIconoclast

@just_sayin

YOUR LAUGHABLE AND HYPOCRITICAL QUOTE AGAIN!!!!:  "Some observations that our atheist friends have lied about:"
https://www.debateisland.com/discussion/comment/181673/#Comment_181673

Listen up you second most BIBLE FOOL of this Religion Forum, I did not lie about the biblical axiom that you have to be a JEW to be a Christian to follow your serial killer Jesus the Christ that I presented to you, remember? Huh?

You have embarrassing running away from this biblical axiom since May 9th of this year as shown in the link belo
 https://www.debateisland.com/discussion/comment/180361/#Comment_180361

I asked you specific questions regarding said link above, and just like the number one bible fool of this Religion Forum, RICKEYHOLTSCLAW, you have ran away from the factual propositions pertaining to your primitive Bronze and Iron Age faith where you have to be a JEW to be a Christian!!!


JUST_SAYIN, WHY DO YOU CONTINUE TO RUN AWAY FROM BIBLICAL REALITY RELATIVE THAT YOU HAVE TO BE A JEW TO BE A CHRISTIAN?

1. What is your problem, TO SCARED to even try and address BIBLICAL FACTS in my post linked above?
2. Is it what you "thought you knew, you didn't" in respect to my revealing post, therefore you had to go again into hiding with Rickey?
3. You don't want to be a JEW like the Bible tells you because they are experiencing anti-semetic acts against them?
4. You like to show Jesus that he is wrong and a in proposing that you have to be a JEW as I have shown in my post in question above?
5. You don't realize that Jesus is watching you run away from his exact INSPIRED WORDS, within the scriptures (Hebrews 4:13)


YOUR SERIAL KILLER JESUS AND I EXPECT A RESPONSE THIS TIME FOR YOU SLAPPING HIM IN THE FACE AND NOT FOLLOWING HIS DOCTRINE WHERE YOU HAVE TO BE A JEW TO BE A FOLLOWER OF HIM AND HIS FAITH!

WAITING FOR YOUR RESPONSE THIS TIME IN FRONT OF THE MEMBERSHIP,

BEGIN:




.

21CenturyIconoclast

@RickeyHoltsclaw

RICKEYHOLTSCLAW, the number one bible fool of this Religion Forum, bar none,


RICKYHOLTSCLAW'S BIBLE MORALITY 101

We can only wonder in how many times that Rickey has had to BEAT HIS CHILDREN WITH A ROD to align them with true Christianity as his serial killer Jesus said for him to do as shown in the verse below: 

JESUS AS GOD SAID: ”Withhold not correction from the child: for if thou BEATEST him with the rod, he shall not die. Thou shalt BEAT HIM with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell." (Proverbs.23:13-14)


Hopefully RICKEY won't take his BIBLICAL BEATINGS of his children to the extent that is shown in the following image, where the cut marks of this Child's face show that he was beaten with a rod like the Bible says to do!





RICKEY HOLTSCLAW'S BIBLE MORALITY 101 THAT HE HAS TO FOLLOW AT THIS TIME, WITH MORE UPDATES COMING, PRAISE!

1.  Rickey accepts that Lot’s two daughters had ungodly incestuous sex with their father, and biblically this is okay with Jesus as god!
https://www.debateisland.com/discussion/comment/181225/#Comment_181225

2. Rickey accepts that if anyone tries to make him worship another god, then biblically he is to murder that person!
https://www.debateisland.com/discussion/comment/181425/#Comment_181425

3. Rickey accepts that if his daughter is not a virgin upon her wedding night, then biblically he is to murder her along with others helping him!
https://www.debateisland.com/discussion/comment/181621/#Comment_181621  

4. Rickey accepts that if his children do not follow his rules, then biblically he is to BEAT THEM WITH A ROD that leaves bruises!
https://www.debateisland.com/discussion/comment/181685/#Comment_181685



OUR POOR NUMBER ONE BIBLE FOOL ...."RICKEYHOLTSCLAW".... CAN'T BEGIN TO DISCUSS THE BIBLE AXIOMS ABOVE, OTHER THAN TO RUN AWAY FROM THEM WITH "LITTLE BOY LAME EXCUSES" AS SHOWN AGAIN, AND AGAIN, AND AGAIN.  



.

Factfinder

Double post

Factfinder

@just_sayin

Again you project your frustration of dwindling faith onto me as anger. I'm not offended as I know where you're coming from.

No eyewitnesses. You blatantly lied here... "You have repeated the st-upid claim that if it is in the Bible it must be fake". I didn't say that. The facts I point out and you lie about and run from is... The bible isn't evidence because saying it's "in the bible" cause the "bible says so" is circular reasoning. 


I can sense your faith fleeting. Which is why your first impulse was to insult in response to my factual post.

I said the creed goes back to Paul. Didn't you even bother to read my post or were you too taken back at being confronted by reality?

The Christian creed originated with Paul, he wasn't a witness of the teachings, trial, execution, the resurrection  or the ascension of Christ. Special pleading to hearsay authority is not evidence but even if it were a tiny bit, they aren't witnesses either. So far your accusations of me lying are proving to be false. It's still church writings and the bible but no independent confirmation at all.

Yes that's a good fall back when trying to produce empirical evidence of an imaginary thing, just assert imaginary special powers on its behalf. I used to skate by with that one but not with anyone who knew the bible. They just saw it for what it is as I do now too, fallacy and myth.

Your bible says in Jeremiah 1:5 as well as many other places that a Christian's eternal destiny has been settled since before the beginning with God according to scripture. You can pretend it's talking about 'conduct' but we both know that's another topic, or a contradiction in the word which is also very possible as it is fallible after all. You don't truly believe "The Living Word Of God" is bought off the bookshelf at Walmart do you? LOL But you'd be lying as you know the verses you run from must be reconciled with each other as they are the word of god according to you.

Of course your bible means what it says, and it says all have been predestined in many places, again why lie unless you're losing faith?

But when he who had set me apart before I was born, and who called me by his grace,  Galatians 1:15

The fundamental claim of Christianity is that god created man, tempted and/or allowed man to be tempted into disobedience knowing this would be the case as it orchestrated it all to provide a savior to save its creation from itself enacting eternal burning and pain on them over the petty reason of not being interested in it.

I'm thinking about the camping trip I'm going on soon but if the facts of reality make you want to believe it's just me and my anger, that's cool. I got a new camping rocking chair I'm going to try out! BTW there is no where that I lied. Maybe you should actually read posts?

RickeyHoltsclaw

@21CenturyIconoclast

1) What happened between Lot, Sodom, Gomorrah, Lot's daughters really makes no difference to me as these things are nothing compared to the demonic acts of atheists today and the LGBTQ perverted community and their PRIDE.

No one said what happened to Lot is Biblically OK with Jesus but Jesus simply said as things were in the Days of Noah & as things were in the days of Lot will be how things are in the Day of His 2nd-Advent...I'm good with that as those days are upon us at this very moment through the atheist-secular humanist-religionist-progressive-democrat-marxist-LGBTQ pervert-abortionist.

Jesus said: 22 And he said to the disciples, “The days are coming when you will desire to see one of the days of the Son of Man, and you will not see it. 23 And they will say to you, ‘Look, there!’ or ‘Look, here!’ Do not go out or follow them. 24 For as the lightning flashes and lights up the sky from one side to the other, so will the Son of Man be in his day. 25 But first he must suffer many things and be rejected by this generation. 26 Just as it was in the days of Noah, so will it be in the days of the Son of Man. 27 They were eating and drinking and marrying and being given in marriage, until the day when Noah entered the ark, and the flood came and destroyed them all. 28 Likewise, just as it was in the days of Lot—they were eating and drinking, buying and selling, planting and building, 29 but on the day when Lot went out from Sodom, fire and sulfur rained from heaven and destroyed them all— 30 so will it be on the day when the Son of Man is revealed.  Luke 17 (ESV)

___________________________________________________

2) Every human being is free to worship anything, anyone, they desire...makes no difference to me. My obligation is to tell them about Jesus our Messiah and if they deny...my Lord says to "shake the dust from sandals"....

Jesus said:

5 These twelve Jesus sent out, instructing them, “Go nowhere among the Gentiles and enter no town of the Samaritans, 6 but go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. 7 And proclaim as you go, saying, ‘The kingdom of heaven is at hand.’ 8 Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse lepers, cast out demons. You received without paying; give without pay. 9 Acquire no gold or silver or copper for your belts, 10 no bag for your journey, or two tunics or sandals or a staff, for the laborer deserves his food. 11 And whatever town or village you enter, find out who is worthy in it and stay there until you depart. 12 As you enter the house, greet it. 13 And if the house is worthy, let your peace come upon it, but if it is not worthy, let your peace return to you. 14 And if anyone will not receive you or listen to your words, shake off the dust from your feet when you leave that house or town. 15 Truly, I say to you, it will be more bearable on the day of judgment for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah than for that town. Matthew 10 (ESV)

_________________________________________________________

3) My daughter's virginity on her wedding night is none of my business. I am not obligated to a religion or a Jewish/Israeli law or Moses' edicts...I am in a personal, covenant, relationship with my Creator, Jesus Christ, by faith...I am not under law.

It is written: 2 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, to make you obey its passions. 13 Do not present your members to sin as instruments for unrighteousness, but present yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life, and your members to God as instruments for righteousness. 14 For sin will have no dominion over you, since you are not under law but under grace. Romans 6 (ESV)

____________________________________________________________

4) I am, as husband and father, responsible for the moral, ethical, up-bringing of my children and I am therefore to discipline them with love that they not become one with the immoral, unethical, sexually perverted, atheist - secular humanist therefore I am to raise my children in the fear and admonition of my Lord Jesus but raise them not in bitterness and harshness but with love and compassion.

It is written in the New Covenant,

4 Fathers, do not provoke your children to anger, but bring them up in the discipline and instruction of the Lord. Ephesians 6:4 (ESV)

Children, obey your parents in everything, for this pleases the Lord.  Colossians 3:20 (ESV)

Now they were bringing even infants to him that he might touch them. And when the disciples saw it, they rebuked them. But Jesus called them to him, saying, “Let the children come to me, and do not hinder them, for to such belongs the kingdom of God. Truly, I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God like a child shall not enter it.”  Luke 18

Children, obey your parents in the Lord, for this is right. “Honor your father and mother” (this is the first commandment with a promise), “that it may go well with you and that you may live long in the land.” Fathers, do not provoke your children to anger, but bring them up in the discipline and instruction of the Lord.  Ephesians 6

______________________________________________

One thing is for sure; @21CenturyIconoclast ; @Factfinder ; @Joeseph ; @MayCaesar ; are all headed to death in Hell due their unbelief, rejection of Jesus, as Messiah.

Factfinder

@RickeyHoltsclaw

One things for sure, you're nutty.

RickeyHoltsclaw

@Factfinder ; I have Jesus, you have Satan...enjoy your "wisdom."

21CenturyIconoclast

@RickeyHoltsclaw

RICKEY, the number one BIBLE FOOL of this Religion Forum, bar none,

Regarding my future posts relating to RICKEYHOLTSCLAW'S BIBLE MORALITY 101 that you have to follow distinctly, then whenever you truly desire, if you possess the courage to discuss specific Scripture, I invite you to state or write or articulate a short, succinct, premise based in theology to my listings of BIBLE MORALITY 101, and I'll debate your position on the subject matter, but until then...you can rant, rave, hate, blather, be bible stu-pid, come up with explicit bible contradictions, but until you find your balls, you're just another pseudo-christian fool making yourself a BIBLE DUNCE in front of your wife, family, and the membership! 

DO YOU UNDERSTAND BIBLE FOOL?!

Otherwise, you are embarrassingly dismissed in front of the membership.







.

RickeyHoltsclaw

@21CenturyIconoclast ; Elohim has provided an abundance of food that can feed the World daily ten-times over...it's not Elohim's fault that this child is raised by atheistic tribal nit-wits too lazy and foolish to feed him. The World suffers because of your worldview and your unfaithfulness and your hate for Elohim...

“We produce enough food to feed 1.5 (times) the global population”

https://news.thin-ink.net/p/we-produce-enough-food-to-feed-15

21CenturyIconoclast

@RickeyHoltsclaw


RickeyHoltsclaw, the number one bible fool of this Religion Forum, bar none,


RICKYHOLTSCLAW'S BIBLE MORALITY 101 CONTINUES, PRAISE!

OMG! Can you imagine that if this biblical day ever presents itself to RickeyHoltclaw, and for whatever reason, where he has to sell his precious little daughter as a slave?!  

JESUS AS GOD SAID: “If a man sells his daughter as a slave, she is not to go free as male servants do. If she does not please the master who has selected her for himself, he must let her be redeemed. He has no right to sell her to foreigners, because he has broken faith with her. (Exodus 21:7-8)


Jesus. as god. condones the selling of a man's daughter into slavery, praise Jesus!  





RICKEY HOLTSCLAW'S ...."BIBLE MORALITY 101".... WHERE HE HAS TO FOLLOW HIS GOD'S WORD! 
WITH MORE UPDATES COMING, PRAISE JESUS! 

1.  Rickey accepts that Lot’s two daughters had ungodly incestuous sex with their father, and biblically this is okay with Jesus as god!
https://www.debateisland.com/discussion/comment/181225/#Comment_181225

2. Rickey accepts that if anyone tries to make him worship another god, then biblically he is to murder that person!
https://www.debateisland.com/discussion/comment/181425/#Comment_181425

3. Rickey accepts that if his daughter is not a virgin upon her wedding night, then biblically he is to murder her along with others helping him!
https://www.debateisland.com/discussion/comment/181621/#Comment_181621  

4. Rickey accepts that if his children do not follow his rules, then biblically he is to BEAT THEM WITH A ROD that leaves bruises!
https://www.debateisland.com/discussion/comment/181685/#Comment_181685

5. Ricky accepts that if there are hard times, or for whatever reason, then biblically he could sell his daughter into slavery, praise Jesus!
https://www.debateisland.com/discussion/comment/181705/#Comment_181705



.

Factfinder

The fact ricky exploits a starving child in pain to make a false claim that the child was raised by an atheist displays the fact ricky is one sick puppy and a solid deterrent for the christian myth.

Not one once of sympathy for the child at all eh, ricky, just proud of yourself for telling him he's going to hell, figures. Ricky talking to starving to death child...



Most religions are merciless, another thing Christianity copies.

21CenturyIconoclast

.
Rickey, the number one BIBLE FOOL of this Religion Forum, bar none,

Your ungodly pseudo-christian post relative to starving innocent children that your god is not taking care of in the name of Christianity!!!! https://www.debateisland.com/discussion/comment/181702/#Comment_181702

If only you possessed the intellect and ability to express your concerns about Christianity in an understandable way so that one could provide rebuttal and an exegesis, but you are apparently unable to do so as you show us with your runaway from biblical axioms, and your vitriol for Jesus and the Cross because you do not follow Jesus'  entire words within the scriptures, consume and stymie your wisdom and discernment in front of the membership!

Until you get yourself "right-side-up" with logic and truth to your wanting statements you've embarrassingly shown, I will not waste my precious time with you, but instead, easily show your RICKEYHOLTSCLAW'S BIBLE MORALITY 101! in future posts at your expense!  Understand Bible fool?!






.

Factfinder

RickeyHoltsclaw said:

@Factfinder ; I have Jesus, you have Satan...enjoy your "wisdom."

Ricky, I have reality, you have imagination....enjoy your delusion. That's the wisdom I here by dispense. You're dismissed.

just_sayin

21CenturyIconoclast said:

@RickeyHoltsclaw

RICKEYHOLTSCLAW, the number one bible fool of this Religion Forum, bar none,


RICKYHOLTSCLAW'S BIBLE MORALITY 101

We can only wonder in how many times that Rickey has had to BEAT HIS CHILDREN WITH A ROD to align them with true Christianity as his serial killer Jesus said for him to do as shown in the verse below: 

JESUS AS GOD SAID: ”Withhold not correction from the child: for if thou BEATEST him with the rod, he shall not die. Thou shalt BEAT HIM with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell." (Proverbs.23:13-14)


Hopefully RICKEY won't take his BIBLICAL BEATINGS of his children to the extent that is shown in the following image, where the cut marks of this Child's face show that he was beaten with a rod like the Bible says to do!





RICKEY HOLTSCLAW'S BIBLE MORALITY 101 THAT HE HAS TO FOLLOW AT THIS TIME, WITH MORE UPDATES COMING, PRAISE!

1.  Rickey accepts that Lot’s two daughters had ungodly incestuous sex with their father, and biblically this is okay with Jesus as god!
https://www.debateisland.com/discussion/comment/181225/#Comment_181225

2. Rickey accepts that if anyone tries to make him worship another god, then biblically he is to murder that person!
https://www.debateisland.com/discussion/comment/181425/#Comment_181425

3. Rickey accepts that if his daughter is not a virgin upon her wedding night, then biblically he is to murder her along with others helping him!
https://www.debateisland.com/discussion/comment/181621/#Comment_181621  

4. Rickey accepts that if his children do not follow his rules, then biblically he is to BEAT THEM WITH A ROD that leaves bruises!
https://www.debateisland.com/discussion/comment/181685/#Comment_181685



OUR POOR NUMBER ONE BIBLE FOOL ...."RICKEYHOLTSCLAW".... CAN'T BEGIN TO DISCUSS THE BIBLE AXIOMS ABOVE, OTHER THAN TO RUN AWAY FROM THEM WITH "LITTLE BOY LAME EXCUSES" AS SHOWN AGAIN, AND AGAIN, AND AGAIN.  



.

Other than @FactFinder, you may be the the most biblically illiterate person on this forum.  The Bible contains stories that are not meant to be the example to follow.  This is the case with Lot's daughters.  Are you seriously arguing that the bible which says it is wrong to have sex with your daughter is arguing FOR having sex with your daughter?  

In points 2 and 3 you said that if those things happened then Rickey was obligated to murder.  First, any crime in the Bible that has the possibility of the death penalty can also have a lesser sentence, other than murder.  The Bible gives examples of sacrifices and other actions required for paying for the crime.  Did you seriously not know that?  How Bible foolish of you.  Secondly, the laws you mention are in the Old Testament.  That's a different covenant than what the Christian is required to keep.  The Christian is under the new covenant, and any requirement would be mentioned in the New Testament.  Again, you seem to have not known one of the most basic things about Christianity, yet you are spewing fallacious accusations at Rickey when it is obvious that you don't know what you are talking about.  Are you and @FactFinder related?  

Factfinder

just_sayin said:

21CenturyIconoclast said:

@RickeyHoltsclaw

RICKEYHOLTSCLAW, the number one bible fool of this Religion Forum, bar none,


RICKYHOLTSCLAW'S BIBLE MORALITY 101

We can only wonder in how many times that Rickey has had to BEAT HIS CHILDREN WITH A ROD to align them with true Christianity as his serial killer Jesus said for him to do as shown in the verse below: 

JESUS AS GOD SAID: ”Withhold not correction from the child: for if thou BEATEST him with the rod, he shall not die. Thou shalt BEAT HIM with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell." (Proverbs.23:13-14)


Hopefully RICKEY won't take his BIBLICAL BEATINGS of his children to the extent that is shown in the following image, where the cut marks of this Child's face show that he was beaten with a rod like the Bible says to do!





RICKEY HOLTSCLAW'S BIBLE MORALITY 101 THAT HE HAS TO FOLLOW AT THIS TIME, WITH MORE UPDATES COMING, PRAISE!

1.  Rickey accepts that Lot’s two daughters had ungodly incestuous sex with their father, and biblically this is okay with Jesus as god!
https://www.debateisland.com/discussion/comment/181225/#Comment_181225

2. Rickey accepts that if anyone tries to make him worship another god, then biblically he is to murder that person!
https://www.debateisland.com/discussion/comment/181425/#Comment_181425

3. Rickey accepts that if his daughter is not a virgin upon her wedding night, then biblically he is to murder her along with others helping him!
https://www.debateisland.com/discussion/comment/181621/#Comment_181621  

4. Rickey accepts that if his children do not follow his rules, then biblically he is to BEAT THEM WITH A ROD that leaves bruises!
https://www.debateisland.com/discussion/comment/181685/#Comment_181685



OUR POOR NUMBER ONE BIBLE FOOL ...."RICKEYHOLTSCLAW".... CAN'T BEGIN TO DISCUSS THE BIBLE AXIOMS ABOVE, OTHER THAN TO RUN AWAY FROM THEM WITH "LITTLE BOY LAME EXCUSES" AS SHOWN AGAIN, AND AGAIN, AND AGAIN.  



.

Other than @FactFinder, you may be the the most biblically illiterate person on this forum.  The Bible contains stories that are not meant to be the example to follow.  This is the case with Lot's daughters.  Are you seriously arguing that the bible which says it is wrong to have sex with your daughter is arguing FOR having sex with your daughter?  

In points 2 and 3 you said that if those things happened then Rickey was obligated to murder.  First, any crime in the Bible that has the possibility of the death penalty can also have a lesser sentence, other than murder.  The Bible gives examples of sacrifices and other actions required for paying for the crime.  Did you seriously not know that?  How Bible foolish of you.  Secondly, the laws you mention are in the Old Testament.  That's a different covenant than what the Christian is required to keep.  The Christian is under the new covenant, and any requirement would be mentioned in the New Testament.  Again, you seem to have not known one of the most basic things about Christianity, yet you are spewing fallacious accusations at Rickey when it is obvious that you don't know what you are talking about.  Are you and @FactFinder related?  

Everyone knows you and ricky are related...

RickeyHoltsclaw

@just_sayin @Factfinder

So the two women did not say anything to anyone en route to inform the Disciples of their findings...what the problem atheist....is this why you opted to die in Hell...karen?

RickeyHoltsclaw

@21CenturyIconoclast ;  Still waiting for a succinct, comprehend-able, premise for debate...can you do that? 

Factfinder

RickeyHoltsclaw said:

@just_sayin @Factfinder

So the two women did not say anything to anyone en route to inform the Disciples of their findings...what the problem atheist....is this why you opted to die in Hell...karen?

The question is, is this crap why you opted to spend your life in a delusional state of mind?

RickeyHoltsclaw

@Factfinder ;  Truth is, I was challenged by an elderly Messianic Priest concerning faith and Scripture approximately 35-years ago and in response I purchased a paraphrased version of the Scriptures called "The Living Bible" and sat down to begin my first thorough read of the Scriptures and about half-way through my read in the New Testament I looked up and asked "where has this been all my life?"...I believed what I was reading and my life dramatically changed as a husband, dad, policeman...that first read led to an incredibly in-depth study and I found the answers to life that had baffled me for 30-years up to that point...the rest is history....Jesus is Lord, I have no doubts and I will live with Him eternally because I trust Him, I believe Him, I love Him and the Holy Spirit is my best Friend in all the World and He indwells me, He loves me...He teaches me...He is patient with me...He is always faithful...I love Him and I'm forever thankful to the Father for His mercy and grace and kindness and patience and love.

21CenturyIconoclast

@RickeyHoltsclaw


RICKEY HOLTSCLAW'S ...."BIBLE MORALITY 101"

We can only wonder once again if our number one Bible FOOL Rickey will follow through with his serial killer gods' commands, of which here is another one for him to know about, and to act upon in the name of Jesus, where Rickey is to look for prostitutes and burn them with fire until their demise, praise Jesus!

JESUS INSPIRED WORDS AS GOD STATED: “’If a priest’s daughter defiles herself by becoming a prostitute, she disgraces her father; she must be burned in the fire." (Leviticus 21:9)

I guess that RickeyHoltsclaw has to go into the seedy parts of his town, or look on line for prostitutes that are advertising in his area, and take along some kerosine and matches when he does fine a prostitute. Then when he does find a courtesan, Rickey is to then gush her with the kerosine, and then throw a lit match upon her in the name of Christianity as she burns to death, praise Jesus and his commands!


Rickey could use this ruse, where he draws the prostitute over to his car, and then
quickly throws kerosine on her and then lights a match to throw upon her to burn
her alive like his JUDEO-Christian bible tells him to do, praise Jesus!




RICKEY HOLTSCLAW'S ...."BIBLE MORALITY 101".... THAT HE HAS TO FOLLOW AS A CHRISTIAN, WITH MORE UPDATES COMING, PRAISE!

1.  Rickey accepts that Lot’s two daughters had ungodly incestuous sex with their father, and biblically this is okay with Jesus as god!
https://www.debateisland.com/discussion/comment/181225/#Comment_181225

2. Rickey accepts that if anyone tries to make him worship another god, then biblically he is to murder that person!
https://www.debateisland.com/discussion/comment/181425/#Comment_181425

3. Rickey accepts that if his daughter is not a virgin upon her wedding night, then biblically he is to murder her along with others helping him!
https://www.debateisland.com/discussion/comment/181621/#Comment_181621  

4. Rickey accepts that if his children do not follow his rules, then biblically he is to BEAT THEM WITH A ROD that leaves bruises!
https://www.debateisland.com/discussion/comment/181685/#Comment_181685

5. Rickey accepts that when he goes out to find evil prostitutes, then he biblically has to burn them to death in the name of Christianity!
https://www.debateisland.com/discussion/comment/181736/#Comment_181736



.

Factfinder

RickeyHoltsclaw said:

@Factfinder ;  Truth is, I was challenged by an elderly Messianic Priest concerning faith and Scripture approximately 35-years ago and in response I purchased a paraphrased version of the Scriptures called "The Living Bible" and sat down to begin my first thorough read of the Scriptures and about half-way through my read in the New Testament I looked up and asked "where has this been all my life?"...I believed what I was reading and my life dramatically changed as a husband, dad, policeman...that first read led to an incredibly in-depth study and I found the answers to life that had baffled me for 30-years up to that point...the rest is history....Jesus is Lord, I have no doubts and I will live with Him eternally because I trust Him, I believe Him, I love Him and the Holy Spirit is my best Friend in all the World and He indwells me, He loves me...He teaches me...He is patient with me...He is always faithful...I love Him and I'm forever thankful to the Father for His mercy and grace and kindness and patience and love.

That's fine. But Christianity still is in no way unique. 

RickeyHoltsclaw

@21CenturyIconoclast ; Do you have a sincere question concerning Christianity, theology?