Christianity

just_sayin

MayCaesar said:

just_sayin said:

May, you owe a debt.  You are correct, it is your debt.  The one to whom you owe the debt is willing to accept a different payment.  The one who provides the payment is willing to do so. Legally, you can refuse the offer and pay it yourself - that's your choice, but it is not illegal for the one to whom you owe the debt to allow someone else to pay it.  

C.S. Lewis once said that Jesus must either be a , a lunatic or Lord.  Either he lied about who he was and his mission, or he was out of his mind, or he was who he claimed to be - Lord.  You are free to think he is a lunatic.  It is interesting that those who knew him best though, did not think he was a lunatic, in fact they choose to die rather than claim he was anything but Lord.  

Do I? Could you show me the loan contract I signed? I specifically would want to know the temporal aspect of it: how I managed to sign a contract over 2,000 years before the spermatozoid that led to my conception appeared in this Universe.

It is also a bit weird to compare a monetary debt to a vice. Do you think that taking a loan is sinful?

I actually do not think that the real Jesus of Nazareth was a lunatic. But I am also not one claiming that he died for people separated from him by 100 generations, so...

Well, let me put it in terms that your Russian heritage may identify more with.  God is the ruler, and you have committed treason by disobeying his orders.  The punishment for treason is death.  Your sentence can be payed for by another if the judge agrees, and the one offended agrees, and the one standing in your place (all part of the Godhead by the way), and if you agree to those terms.  You can reject the deal - nothing is keeping you from facing the charges against you and you don't have to accept any other offers.  

Kind of arrogant of you to decide how God can judge people, don't you think???  Seriously, who are you to tell God what He can and can not do or accept?  Substitutionary sacrifice has a long history within the Bible - God provided a ram for Abraham instead of allowing the sacrifice of his son.  The Jewish system had a sacrificial system - ever heard of the term scape goat??  Since God is judge, the one sinned against, and even the one providing the substitute sacrifice, it is safe to assume - he's OK with the arrangement.  Who are you to say God can't be gracious and provide an escape from the penalty?  Seriously,  you made a claim based on your preferences and desire to dictate to God what He can and can't do.  Logically, God can do what he wants with His creation.  He hasn't been unjust to you by offering to pay the penalty himself.  He has been gracious.  You have always been free to reject His grace.  A price must be payed for your sin - the question is who will pay it - you or Jesus.  

RickeyHoltsclaw

@Rock ; @Factfincer ; @21CenturyIconoclast There is nothing complicated about the presence of Christianity....the fulfillment of our Creator's eschatological imperative concerning the defeat of Satan via the Gospel via the Messiah via selfless love first demonstrated for humanity in Eden via Genesis 3:21 and reiterated in John 3:16. It is through the Christian Narrative i.e., the Gospel of Jesus our Messiah, that Elohim provides lowly humanity an opportunity to know Him personally, love Him intimately, live with Him eternally; this, by faith in Jesus as one's Messiah who died for them. If you perish in this life having rejected Elohim's offer of life through faith in Jesus, you will perish in Hell, forever, because your unrepentant sin will not find a place in the Kingdom (Rev 21:27).

 

MayCaesar

@just_sayin

What my heritage reads here is that god is celestial Stalin. That is quite a big difference from my creditor. We are not talking about any debts here contrary to your analogy, just tyranny.

As for who I am to tell someone what they should do... I am an independent thinker. I do not need mommy or daddy or government nanny or church poppy to tell me what I should or should not think. If the god in your fantasy story makes nonsensical decisions, then I will say so. I have not been conditioned by years of brainwashing to approve of arbitrary authority.

A religious person is kind of like a kid whose body grew up, but whose mind is still attached to the daddy. The real daddy no longer guides them through life, but they have found a celestial daddy to follow instead.

RickeyHoltsclaw

@MayCaesar

That's because you don't know our Creator and you think yourself wise and prudent yet you don't know Scripture nor do you know our Creator eschatological imperatives concerning why Time exists and why you're are present within same. 

Factfinder

RickeyHoltsclaw said:

@MayCaesar

That's because you don't know our Creator and you think yourself wise and prudent yet you don't know Scripture nor do you know our Creator eschatological imperatives concerning why Time exists and why you're are present within same. 

You don't know your creator and you think yourself wise and prudent. Lear to read and read the bible, you'll see you've been wrong and it's not okay to remain a self willed ignorant bad pig who abuses minorities like you confessed to.

RickeyHoltsclaw

@Factfinder ; You have NOT a clue, atheist. You don't know Scripture nor do you realize the fate that awaits you in your atheism....without Jesus as your Messiah and Mediator, you will die in your sin.

just_sayin

MayCaesar said:

@just_sayin

What my heritage reads here is that god is celestial Stalin. That is quite a big difference from my creditor. We are not talking about any debts here contrary to your analogy, just tyranny.

As for who I am to tell someone what they should do... I am an independent thinker. I do not need mommy or daddy or government nanny or church poppy to tell me what I should or should not think. If the god in your fantasy story makes nonsensical decisions, then I will say so. I have not been conditioned by years of brainwashing to approve of arbitrary authority.

A religious person is kind of like a kid whose body grew up, but whose mind is still attached to the daddy. The real daddy no longer guides them through life, but they have found a celestial daddy to follow instead.

LOL.  May, one of us packs his posts with evidence and science, and the other one is you.  I was more than happy to talk about the scientific theories for how the universe began.  I brought up many more theories and the scientific problems with them than you even mentioned.  I asked you how do you fit an entire universe in zero space.  You then gave a classic science of the gaps answer ('just cause we don't know doesn't mean science can't answer it'), and then claimed you didn't give a science of the gaps answer.  I pointed out to you the evidence that the universe is finely tuned and that is statistical much more likely the result of an intelligence than the random chance that all the fundamental forces just happened to fall into the incredibly narrow ranges needed.  You cling to your belief that science will find an explanation - even when it is science disproving all the theories.

When we talked about abiogenesis - which is needed for your atheistic faith, I was quite comfortable talking about the chemical problems with it.  I went through several of the issues.  I don't recall you providing the scientific explanation of how non-life created life.  You argued that just because we don't know doesn't mean it was God.  I pointed out the complexity of DNA even for the simplest single celled creature, and observed that code needs a coder.  You just cling to your faith claim, even when the science suggests that there are at least 10 chemical problems with abiogenesis that are not solvable.  You are willing to believe that 10 miracles happened, even though you don't believe in miracles - just to maintain your atheistic faith.

When we talked about miracles - I sighted peer reviewed studies, eye witness testimony - under oath even, news reports, video clips, doctor's notes and reports, medical records, etc.  You tried to redefine 'miracle' claiming that if one happened in nature, then it is a natural thing - so it can't exist.  May, not your most logical moment.  The very definition of miracle says it is inexplicable and beyond natural means.  You even said as much that no amount of evidence would convince you a miracle was real.

As I keep pointing out - my faith does not hinge on the origin of the universe, evolution being true or false, or any miracle (other than the resurrection) being true.  For you though, you are the one entrenched and your faith will not allow for evidence of God's involvement. You are the one who denies science and clings to your faith claims.  Let's not pretend otherwise.

MayCaesar

@just_sayin

Perhaps when your rate of lies drops below 80%, I will consider taking you seriously.

RickeyHoltsclaw

@MayCaesar ; May, your entire life is a lie in atheism...how can you therefore discern?

Factfinder

RickeyHoltsclaw said:

@MayCaesar ; May, your entire life is a lie in atheism...how can you therefore discern?

Ricky, your entire life is a lie in Christianity...how can you therefore discern?

RickeyHoltsclaw

@Factfinder ;  Christianity is the only Truth you will find in this LIFE....you have chosen death in atheism...you reap and sow what you honor.

Factfinder

RickeyHoltsclaw said:

@Factfinder ;  Christianity is the only Truth you will find in this LIFE....you have chosen death in atheism...you reap and sow what you honor.

I honor truth and found it. You've chosen lies and death in theism along with irrelevancy...you reap what you sow and honor

RickeyHoltsclaw

@Factfinder ; You honor "the lie."

24 Therefore sGod gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to tthe dishonoring of their bodies among themselves, 25 because they exchanged the truth about God for ua lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, vwho is blessed forever! Amen.

Factfinder

RickeyHoltsclaw said:

@Factfinder ; You honor "the lie."

24 Therefore sGod gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to tthe dishonoring of their bodies among themselves, 25 because they exchanged the truth about God for ua lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, vwho is blessed forever! Amen.

That's an out right lie, I haven't honored your fairytale book in a long time. Why do you choose to revel in ignorance and stupidity?

RickeyHoltsclaw

@Factfinder ; You don't honor Scripture or Jesus (the Living Word) because you're blinded by your spiritual father.

Factfinder

RickeyHoltsclaw said:

@Factfinder ; You don't honor Scripture or Jesus (the Living Word) because you're blinded by your spiritual father.

I honor truth. Truth is your god hides behind nonexistence the way you hide behind your badge, no one is blind. 

RickeyHoltsclaw

@Factfinder You don't know what Truth is...you're an atheist...you've opted for a nihilistic existence in Time and in Eternity...that is your free will choice...you have chosen foolishly.

Factfinder

RickeyHoltsclaw said:

@Factfinder You don't know what Truth is...you're an atheist...you've opted for a nihilistic existence in Time and in Eternity...that is your free will choice...you have chosen foolishly.

Ricky you don't know what truth is...you're a christian...you've opted for a nihilistic existence in Time and in Eternity...that is your free will choice...you have chosen foolishly.

just_sayin

Factfinder said:

RickeyHoltsclaw said:

@Factfinder You don't know what Truth is...you're an atheist...you've opted for a nihilistic existence in Time and in Eternity...that is your free will choice...you have chosen foolishly.

Ricky you don't know what truth is...you're a christian...you've opted for a nihilistic existence in Time and in Eternity...that is your free will choice...you have chosen foolishly.

Another ":rager" from the God hater.  Sigh.  B-r-o, see a therapist already.

Blaise Pascal, using decision theory principles, claimed that it makes sense to live ones life consistent with the belief that God exists.  This is based on potential outcomes.  If God doesn't exist then whatever may be lost is a finite loss.  However, if god is real, the losses are infinite.  Further, he concluded that a life lived for God by the skeptic would result in finite positive outcomes also.

Those who are seething mad at God  tend to lie about the basic facts:

1)  There is strong evidence that Jesus died and rose from the dead - there are a number of eye witness accounts, there are lots of details that would not have been included it it had been made up (such as the women being the first witnesses), there is early attestation to the event (within 18 months of the resurrection), there is supplemental and corroborating evidence from non-Christian sources.  Plus, it is very hard to explain why the apostles and Paul endured the persecution and martyrdom if they didn't think Jesus was resurrected.

2) There is evidence of miracles - there are lots of eye witness accounts - some given under oath in a court of law, medical records, peer reviewed case reports, doctor's testimony, news reports, video of the lame actually getting up and walking, etc.  The atheist has to pretend thousands of recorded miracles are fake to maintain his claim that miracles don't happen.  A guy on this site who has been struggling for some time with his anger towards God and claims he isn't mad at God, between his angry rants about God, once said that someone could provide evidence of God growing a limb back then he would change his opinion and admit God was real. 

I happily provided him with that evidence - the miracle of Calanda.  The guy in that event - had his leg amputated after an accident.  He spent the winter in a hospital and then in the spring returned to his home town.  After about 2 years, he prayed and that night his leg grew back.  24 eye witness accounts were recorded in a Spanish court to validate the claim, there were hundreds more witnesses, but the court limited the recorded witnesses to 24.  These 24 witnesses included 3 doctors and the chaplain from the hospital that did the amputation.  There were 2 medical doctors that certified that the leg had grown back.  There were witnesses that had seen the man while his leg was amputated and saw it after it was restored. 

That bitter old man clung to his denial that there was any evidence of miracles.  I went over another half dozen different documented miracles anyway.  Craig Keener has a massive collection of documented evidence of miracles in 2 volumes - each over 1000 pages long.  I think I could show him all of them and it wouldn't matter.  There have been some classic moments where atheists denied miracles - 
a. One old geezer claimed that the miracle of a blind woman getting her eyesight back was fake and even claimed her doctor was a black bishop from Florida.  Guy had the wrong man.  Her doctor with an Ivy league pedigree and who had pioneered eye surgeries was from the mid-west.  
b. One atheist claimed the evil twin theory for the miracle of Calanda.  When it was pointed out that the guy didn't have a twin, he continued to cling to his evil twin conspiracy theory.
c.  One atheist tried to say that Barbara Commiskey's healing of blindness, paralysis, and organ failure was fake, because a guy left a bad review on Yelp for her cardiologist who was the top cardiologist at the Mayo Clinic.  The yelp review claimed the guy had a coupon and the doctor wouldn't give him a free heart surgery - not making this up.  

it is my experience, atheists will go to any level of denial to cling to their false claim that their is no evidence of miracles.  

3) There is good reason to believe a God level intelligence created the universe and started life.  The evidence for a finely tuned universe, the evidence that the universe had a beginning where the universe started from zero space, and the complexity of even a single celled organism - strongly suggest that a coder made the DNA code.  

Factfinder

@just_sayin

Another ":rager" from the God hater.  Sigh.  B-r-o, see a therapist already.

The fact you can't see the obvious play on ricky's words I used is almost as revealing as the total lack of evidence of god and speaks volumes about your state of mental health. One can not hate what doesn't exist although one can hate how religion dumbs people down. Your last post proves.

Blaise Pascal, using decision theory principles, claimed that it makes sense to live ones life consistent with the belief that God exists.  This is based on potential outcomes.  If God doesn't exist then whatever may be lost is a finite loss.  However, if god is real, the losses are infinite.  Further, he concluded that a life lived for God by the skeptic would result in finite positive outcomes also.

But the obvious fallacy of Pascal's wager is it's not talking in the context of actual faith in god but rather an attempt to hedge a bet to stay out of hell. Two different things which Christians tend to avoid serious contemplation about as it feels to close to doubting the existence of their preferred version of god and doubt equals losing faith which equal hell in the eyes of a believer. Almost all Christians I've come across do not proclaim the love of god but instead focus on the salvation from hell aspect. The 'bend the knee or else' approach. As "freewill".

Those who are seething mad at God  tend to lie about the basic facts:

Those who project imaginary anger onto others as opposed to the internal examination of sound logical arguments against their personal non evidential claims tend to suffer insecurity issues while demonstrating great confusion between fact and fiction.

it is my experience, atheists will go to any level of denial to cling to their false claim that their is no evidence of miracles. 

In reality theists will sink to any level in their futile efforts to convince themselves there is empirical evidence of god simply cause we exist and they must believe god did it or they go to hell per their mythical doctrine.

Example: If a guy has two legs. The known reality of human biological limitations on the regeneration of severed limbs, meaning it's not biologically possible, leads to only one conclusion, he never had a leg amputated. And even if it was to be considered in some way a "true miracle" the only physical evidence would be the leg itself but upon examination of the leg we find it's the guys original leg, scars and all, no regeneration took place.

But in the mindset of a theist that same physical evidence is proof positive that same guy had his leg amputated and it grew back one night and the original  scars and blemishes means that after decomposing in a hole in the ground the leg walked miles to it's owner and reattached itself. They will go to great lengths to claim superstitious cult writings from the dark ages coupled with a kangaroo court of the same ignorant time in history some how constitutes verified empirical evidence that the decomposed leg did all that is claimed about it. A 20th century Catholic author says so too. LOL

Now upon the rationale rejection of such nonsensical extraordinary claims with no real evidential support; the average theist feels their faith being threatened and must come up with an excuse to calm that internal uneasy feeling of relational doubt rising about believing in such things. Compelling them to project an imaginary scenario where they just say the person who rejects their looney claims is simply mad at their imaginary god.

RickeyHoltsclaw

@Factfinder ; You have chosen the path of the fool...walk in it. Jesus is LIFE...without Him, you die in nihilism.

Factfinder

RickeyHoltsclaw said:

@Factfinder ; You have chosen the path of the fool...walk in it. Jesus is LIFE...without Him, you die in nihilism.

That's what you believe. No evidence to support it though. Odd it seems to be far more important for you that your faith is respected than it is for me to believe in it..

RickeyHoltsclaw

@Factfinder ; I see extant evidence for a Creator and the written words validate what I perceive and the Living Word, Jesus Christ, verifies what I believe.

Factfinder

RickeyHoltsclaw said:

@Factfinder ; I see extant evidence for a Creator and the written words validate what I perceive and the Living Word, Jesus Christ, verifies what I believe.

I see the extant evidence for reality and the factually based research and accompanying scientific models that validate no evidence of a creator at all has been discovered and verifies what that what I do know.

RickeyHoltsclaw

@Factfinder ; Please share that fact-based evidence that all things have manifest void an omnipotent Creator?

Factfinder

RickeyHoltsclaw said:

@Factfinder ; Please share that fact-based evidence that all things have manifest void an omnipotent Creator?

Please share that fact-based evidence that all things have manifest void an imagined omnipotent Creator?

RickeyHoltsclaw

@Factfinder ; I'm simply here at the direction of the Holy Spirit to tell you of your futility in atheism and that you're on the Path to death in Hell and offer you the option of Jesus to find eternal life...but you won't listen, you don't care...you have staunchly set your face against anything relevant to faith, Jesus, redemption, hope...you're on your own....I'm here for entertainment...when that becomes weary, I'll exit.

Factfinder

RickeyHoltsclaw said:

@Factfinder ; I'm simply here at the direction of the Holy Spirit to tell you of your futility in atheism and that you're on the Path to death in Hell and offer you the option of Jesus to find eternal life...but you won't listen, you don't care...you have staunchly set your face against anything relevant to faith, Jesus, redemption, hope...you're on your own....I'm here for entertainment...when that becomes weary, I'll exit.

So you have no well thought out rational, logical reality based opinions to share? Just here to preach and judge. See how insulting you can be while reveling in self willed ignorance. Got it.

RickeyHoltsclaw

@Factfinder ; You get nothing...you're lost and living without hope or purpose. I find the Scriptures; the evidence engulfing my senses daily in what has been made and placed before me as extant evidence for my Creator and His plan and purpose for Time and my presence within same.

Factfinder

RickeyHoltsclaw said:

@Factfinder ; You get nothing...you're lost and living without hope or purpose. I find the Scriptures; the evidence engulfing my senses daily in what has been made and placed before me as extant evidence for my Creator and His plan and purpose for Time and my presence within same.

True, you need a security blanket and I don't. But then again I live in reality and you don't.

RickeyHoltsclaw

@Factfinder ; No, I simply desired to know the Truth; therefore, I pursued same with fervor and found that Truth in the Gospel of John and I believed it and I believe it...you have nothing but emptiness and rhetoric and hate for the One who created you and died for you so that you can live....yours is the tragedy of prideful humanity.

Factfinder

RickeyHoltsclaw said:

@Factfinder ; No, I simply desired to know the Truth; therefore, I pursued same with fervor and found that Truth in the Gospel of John and I believed it and I believe it...you have nothing but emptiness and rhetoric and hate for the One who created you and died for you so that you can live....yours is the tragedy of prideful humanity.

Yet you envy my intellect while you exalt great arrogance of believing in fairytales. 

RickeyHoltsclaw

@Factfinder ; Truly, I pity you and believe you are willingly ignorant, rather stu-pid by choice, arrogant, irresponsible...a loser...this is my observation of you.

Factfinder

RickeyHoltsclaw said:

@Factfinder ; Truly, I pity you and believe you are willingly ignorant, rather stu-pid by choice, arrogant, irresponsible...a loser...this is my observation of you.

And yet you envy me so much you can't get enough. Meanwhile that doubt you harbor cause you can't prove you have a relationship with god by getting answers only you and you alone are privy to is burning inside you. If you can't move that mountain you have no faith and are hell bound. Your god knows you lack the faith. 

RickeyHoltsclaw

@Factfinder ; Again, I pity you and many others in this forum knowing you will die in Hell lest you repent and apparently you're beyond snatching from the Devil as you have staunchly decided that you're superior to our God.

Joeseph

@RickeyHoltsclaw

Funny that, as a former Catholic we used to say everyone but us were damned to Hell, also its amusing as most Americans are some version of the Protestant abomination and the American versions of Protestantism used to say the Pope was actually the antichrist, while you say Allah holds that honour .....you do know you are all bats in the belfry mad .....right?

RickeyHoltsclaw

@Joeseph ; Catholicism is the World's 2nd-largest religious works cult, 2nd-only to Islam. The Pope is a sinful man just like all of humanity and exalting him is blasphemy. It's not surprising that some of the World's most ardent and destructive atheists are "former" Catholics.

 

Joeseph

@RickeyHoltsclaw

See that? Just as I predicted you deem those who follow the largest  christian denomination Catholism as " blasphermers" ......you really do seem to hate anyone who isn't a member of your cult which you refuse to name.

BTW who are these " well known destructive Atheists " who are former Catholics?

Factfinder

Joeseph said:

@RickeyHoltsclaw

See that? Just as I predicted you deem those who follow the largest  christian denomination Catholism as " blasphermers" ......you really do seem to hate anyone who isn't a member of your cult which you refuse to name.

BTW who are these " well known destructive Atheists " who are former Catholics?

He told me before he isn't part of any denomination, that the wholly spirit guides him through the bible. Only he can't seem to get any info from said spirit that is only privy to him because of his relationship. He's a regular Jim Jones and like all his predecessors who are all talk and no action where truly divine wisdom can be attained, he spews ignorance, bigotry and hatred.  

RickeyHoltsclaw

@Factfinder ; @Joeseph My relationship with my Creator is intimacy, not legalism...not denominational in origin...but simply a relationship of love and peace and joy...that you cannot begin to understand in a spiritually dead condition. You both are dead men walking...your lives are lived without purpose or hope...

RickeyHoltsclaw

@Joeseph A Roman Emperor named Constantine, desiring greater control over the masses in the Roman Empire, envisioned an opportunity to coalesce the people under the Edict of Milan (312-313AD); Constantine, wanting to make Christianity attractive to the masses, opted to merge Roman and Babylonian paganism with elements of Apocryphal doctrine sprinkled with Christian doctrine thereby forming the World’s 2nd-largest religious cult aptly named “Catholicism” – 2nd-only to Islam in its deception and death in Hell; this, no different than those who seek the Kingdom of God via the self-righteous religion of Judaism.

Catholicism has never been Christian but there does exist those who hate Christianity and choose to insult that which Christ initiated in His own blood by suggesting Catholicism is Christianity, Peter was a Pope. Your obfuscation only finds relevance with those who seek death in Hell through religious works and the rejection of Jesus Christ as Messiah.

Factfinder

RickeyHoltsclaw said:

@Factfinder ; @Joeseph My relationship with my Creator is intimacy, not legalism...not denominational in origin...but simply a relationship of love and peace and joy...that you cannot begin to understand in a spiritually dead condition. You both are dead men walking...your lives are lived without purpose or hope...

So intimate with it that you can't glean any special knowledge from it and at the same time it allows atheists to know and understand the bible far better than you. You're living a life without purpose, honor, respect or hope just because like an ignorant child, you're afraid of that which doesn't exist.

RickeyHoltsclaw

@Factfinder ; I know my Lord's words because I have spent MUCH time pursuing His will in prayer and in study...if you truly did the same, you would not be a godless atheist but you would have knowledge and understanding of the deeper truths of our Creator's will.

Factfinder

RickeyHoltsclaw said:

@Factfinder ; I know my Lord's words because I have spent MUCH time pursuing His will in prayer and in study...if you truly did the same, you would not be a godless atheist but you would have knowledge and understanding of the deeper truths of our Creator's will.

So did Hitler. He said the same kind of things.

just_sayin

Is there good evidence that Christianity is true?  Christianity's core tenet is based on a historical event - the death and resurrection of Jesus.  Paul himself said:

And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins. Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ are lost. If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are of all people most to be pitied.  But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead,  I Corinthians 15:17-20 NIV

I believe there is good reason to believe that the death and resurrection of Jesus occurred:

1) There are several eyewitness accounts:  Matthew, John, Peter, James, and Jude.  Along with several accounts collected from eye witnesses - Mark, Luke, Acts, and the writings of Paul.

2) There is very early attestation of the resurrection - 1 Corinthians 15:3-7 is said to be an early Christian creed dated at no more than 18 months after the resurrection according to NT scholar, James Dunn.

3) All the eyewitness accounts share corroborating details - such as Jesus was crucified by Pontius Pilate, laid in a tomb, arose on the 3rd day, and that women were the first witnesses

4) Non-Christian historians and enemies of Christianity corroborate many of the details of the death and resurrection of Jesus - that he was crucified under Pontius Pilate, buried in a tomb, that there was an earthquake, and that the disciples believed he was resurrected.

Phlegon (80-140 AD), an anti-Christian historian, even talks about Jesus death and resurrection, that his hands had been pierced by nails, and that Mary Magdalene was the first witness.  As Origen, in Contra Celsum, Book II 59 writes

And he goes on to say, that Jesus, while alive, was of no assistance to himself, but that he arose after death, and exhibited the marks of his punishment, and showed how his hands had been pierced by nails. ...he asks, Who beheld this? And discrediting the narrative of Mary Magdalene, who is related to have seen Him, he replies, A half-frantic woman, as you state. 

5) There are embarrassing elements of the death and resurrection that are included - such as Jesus dying by crucifixion and that women were the first witnesses.  It is very unlikely these details would have been fabricated if they did not happen as they would have inhibited the spread of the story that Jesus was resurrected.

Joeseph

@RickeyHoltsclaw ;

Catholicism has never been Christian but there does exist those who hate Christianity and choose to insult that which Christ initiated in His own blood by suggesting Catholicism is Christianity, Peter was a Pope. Your obfuscation only finds relevance with those who seek death in Hell through religious works and the rejection of Jesus Christ as Messiah.


I know , I forget you decide who's christian and who goes to heaven or hell , Jesus Chris founded Catholism we called ourselves the one true church and people like you and just sayin were doomed to Hell.

RickeyHoltsclaw

@Joeseph ; Jesus makes that determination and Catholicism is NOT Christianity.

Joeseph

@RickeyHoltsclaw

**I just picked one of your list to demonstrate you and just sayin are doomed to hades.............

It's also very telling you and just sayin are to cowardly to name your particular denomination ,why no ashamed I will try not to laugh.

How do we know that Jesus intended the Church to continue offering the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass?

His instructions are simple and specific: “Do this in remembrance of me” (Luke 22:19). The people who knew him best — his apostles — followed those instructions. Right after Pentecost, Acts tells us that 3,000 new Christians were baptized. “And they held steadfastly to the apostles’ teaching and fellowship, to the breaking of the bread and to the prayers” (Acts 2:42).

“The breaking of the bread” was the characteristic celebration that set the Christians apart from other Jews. While the temple still existed, the Christians worshiped there along with everyone else, but they had Mass in private homes: “And day by day, attending the temple together and breaking bread in their homes, they partook of food with glad and generous hearts, praising God and having favor with all the people” (Acts 2:46-47).

So we have the witness of Scripture to tell us what Jesus’ instructions were and to tell us that his apostles were following those instructions mere days after Jesus ascended into heaven. The tradition of the Mass is unbroken from the time of Christ to our own day.

RickeyHoltsclaw

@Joeseph ; Jesus commanded that we remember Him via the Last Supper but transubstantiation is foolishness and deception and placing a burden upon parishioners primarily for monetary "profit" for the Catholic cult.

Catholic's believe it is necessary for salvation to partake in the Sacrament of the Eucharist (communion). They believe they actually eat and drink the body and blood of Christ through a process called transubstantiation, whereby a priest prays over the wafer and wine and it is supernaturally turned into Christ’s body. They will quote scripture (John 6:53-58; Matthew 26:26-28) out of context to support their viewpoint.  Jesus was alive when the last supper took place and by interpreting this scripture literally instead of figuratively (symbolizing his body and blood), it creates numerous problems. Jesus referred to himself as a “door,” “vine,” and “rock” and these descriptions are recognized as figurative. (John 10:9, 15:5; I Corinthians 10:4) Therefore Jesus is crucified afresh everyday by priests all over the world, who are putting him to open shame. The Bible says that Jesus was physically offered up once (died for our sins), never to be repeated again.  (Hebrews 9:1-28, 10:12-18) He sits on the right hand of God and does not reappear in the Mass as a mass of blood and flesh. It is very important to note that Jesus told us to take the bread (which symbolized his body) and wine (which symbolized his blood); but he did so while he was here on earth and alive. Roman Catholicism makes Jesus and his disciples into cannibals, because he and his disciples were eating his body that was alive. (I Corinthians 11:23-26).

Catholicism teaches that one way of attaining salvation from the punishment of one’s sins is through indulgences, which can be purchased with money or through acts of penitence, acts of charity, or other pietistic means. The idea of indulgences is based on good works meriting God’s grace. Since they believe Christ’s sacrifice was insufficient for the full payment of the penalty of sin, acts of piety and gifts to the Roman Catholic church may be used as partial payment for one’s sins. The adequacy of an indulgence depends upon the merit attributed to it by the Roman Catholic church. The Bible says we are saved by faith and nothing else! Once you die, it’s judgment time! (Ephesians 2:8-9, Hebrews 9:27)

Joeseph

@RickeyHoltsclaw


ARGUMENT TOPIC : RICKEY IS ANNOYED THAT THE CATHOLIC CHURCH MAKES MONEY , PITY THEY DONT FOLLOW AMERICAN " CHRITIANS" FINE EXAMPLE OF GIVING AWAY YOUR RICHES TO HELP THE NEEDY.........



Creflo Dollar: $27 Million

Andy Stanley: $45 Million

Steven Furtick Jr.: $60 Million

Pat Robertson: $100 Million

Joel Osteen: $110 Million

Kenneth Copeland: $300 Million

HIGHLIGHTS

 The richest pastor in America has an estimated net worth of $300 million, equivalent to Brad Pitt's net worth.

 Some pastors, like Kenneth Copeland, are known for their lavish lifestyles, complete with private jets and expensive possessions.

 The richest pastors in America include Joel Osteen, worth an estimated $110 million.