let us say i create fake words to specify english words; such as klik to mean cat, uster to mean you; and so on. perhaps i create 1000 of these words to match an english equivalent. I now have a thousand sounds to represent a thousand english words. I give the list to a thousand people and we all go around speaking these representational sounds. do i have a language or just a code?
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Furthermore, languages are fluid and decentralized, and large established languages still have regional variations, going all the way down to specifics of language use between any two selected individuals. For instance, a tight family living together is likely to have developed a lot of inside jokes and shortcuts that cannot be understood by anyone from outside the family without some additional context. They still speak the same general language as other people around them, but they add a little twist to it, resulting in a new variation of the language.
I suppose language becomes a code when it is explicitly used to communicate confidential information and not let others understand it. Let's say you live in a crime-ridden area and need a way to signal to your close friends or loved ones that the situation is extremely dangerous and they should start looking for a way to escape it, without arousing any suspicion in the dangerous individuals. It may be helpful to have an innocently-sounding phrase for that case, such as, "Hey, how is the weather outside? I hope it's not pouring rabbits!"
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It could be deemed a code if its used for the purpose of secrecy unless you're using the term " code" in a different way.
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. however a language does not rely on another language to be one
Yes I know.
What do you mean " maybe"?
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Well then please post up your definition of language ......language, a system of conventional spoken, manual (signed), or written symbols by means of which human beings, as members of a social group and participants in its culture, express themselves.......
So tell me do you reject this as a definition of language?
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nope, i do not reject that, however that definition leaves a lot to be desired.
Its worked for centuries and understood as perfect definitionally for most , you still haven't given your definition.
communication alone is not a language
Communication is a process ,language focuses on words symbols or signs ,Communication is centerd on the message.
. my code does not have its own system of definitions, or grammar, or idealism. It is a simple borrowing of an established language. Its entire usage is based upon simple word exchange. Remember those puzzle books where each letter stands for another and youi have to crack the code to see the actual sentence?
II haven't a clue what you're on about.
same thing
Same thing as what?
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My first comment was ...... A langauge is a means of communication if your utterances make sense to others you have a language.
Your response was " maybe" which is actually denying what defines a language.
Language :
Language, a system of conventional spoken, manual (signed), or written symbols by means of which human beings, as members of a social group and participants in its culture, express themselves.......
If you disagree with the accepted definition of such your case is not with me but with inguists and who accept the definition .
You still haven't posted up your definition so what is it?
In your mind then English is not a language? As you now introduce the term " true language ".which you only mention now.
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You're actually arguing with yourself there is not one thing in your statement I claimed.
Also you're not happy entirely with the accepted definition of language I'm still waiting on yours can you post it up?
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I'm afraid I haven't a clue what you're trying to say. Why are you refusing to post up your definition of language?
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This isn't so easily deciphered either way. Single words are pretty meaningless until they are used in conjunction with other words. A single word really only represents a vague concept, rather than a specific meaning. It isn't until those vague words are placed with other vague words that a specific meaning comes from them. It is the juxtapositions of the words in conjunction with each other that makes specified messages that are readily understood by others. It was suggested on an earlier post on this thread that it does not matter how the words originate, all that matters is how they are used, but any linguist can look into the origins of specific words and from there can find the reasoning behind specific pronunciations of the words from region to region and possibly find out why the words are pronounced in the manner they are.
One question that fascinates linguists so much is whether society shapes language, or whether language shapes society, and we are no closer to an answer to that question, only a clearer picture of the the possibility that language and society are equally influenced and shaped by each other. It makes it difficult to come to an understanding of the 'science' of a language (and society for that matter) if we cannot decipher which is the true fulcrum of influence. Is it society shaping language, or is it the language itself that is shaping us?
I would hesitate to call nonsense words superimposed over traditional words anything more than code. Even if the words are consistent and share all the same meanings and nuance associated with them, it entirely ignores the why's where's and when's of how the traditional words came to be, and there's no argument thus far that those things are actually meaningless. That's not to say that if your new language is ever actually used instead of a traditional language that it itself cannot take on cultural and social significance, but it's hard to say that simple jargon itself (which is all that system of word replacement is, just jargon) can be a language of its own. Social and cultural influences on our language may be the exact thing that makes languages language.
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Nice topic by the way. Very interesting discussion!!!
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you can look it up even though i told you already. a language has its own vowels, nouns, its own system of ideology, its own dialect, etc.
I know what a language is Maxx I defined it for you , you accepted the definition but say it " It leaves a lot to be desired" so what is your definition?
Why are you refusing to define it?
mine does not. it is nothing more than english encoded into other words. is spanish or russian just english encoded into sounds? nope. they are a separate system. mine is just english with words representing english word
I sill dont know what you're trying to say can you clarify please?
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. A langauge is a means of communication if your utterances , writings or symbols make sense to others you have a language.
Why are you refusing to define language? Pretending you weren't asked is not very honourable.
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No , I wouldn't ignore the definition so let's have it?
Try and clarify what you're saying as it doesn't make sense.
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excon seems to need no clarification.
I'm not Excon also are you on drugs Excon hasnt posted on this debate.. You don't accept the accepted definition as you said "it leaves a lot to be desired" so do explain what linguists and I don't know?
as for the definition; here is what you will do with it. You will simply take one word out of it and ignore all the other parts and points. that word is communication.
Nonsense, you either can define or you cannot , which is it?
You will simply stick with that word and ignore all of my examples and refuse to answer any of my questions
Stop making excuses , you haven't asked me any questions
. you know it and i know it, so why should i bother when i know exactly how you will react? here is the link. What Is Language? The 5 Basic Elements of Language Defined - Owlcation ......
Here is the definition of language from your source......
Definition of Language
Language is a form of communication that allows intercourse between multiple people that is arbitrary (in words individually), generative (in word placement), and constantly evolving.
So what's the big difference between your source and mine( below) ? You did say the definition I supplied as used by linguists " left a lot to be desired", right?
language, a system of conventional spoken, manual (signed), or written symbols by means of which human beings, as members of a social group and participants in its culture, express themselves......
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and just like i said you would do ignore the rest of the definition.
There was no " rest of the definition " , the definition you supplied was ....
Definition of Language
Language is a form of communication that allows intercourse between multiple people that is arbitrary (in words individually), generative (in word placement), and constantly evolving.
hey is morse code a language? nope
I never claimed morse code was a language
. There are many many code used in the world and they are not a language.
I never said codes were a language.
like i said, you will refuse to answer my questions. is cryptology a language?
Yet I'm answering each one , I never made any comments on cryptology.
and like i said you would do, ignore my points.
What " points" have I ignored?
you also failed to reply to what my code is not, as to how it is not a language
I never said your code was a language..
why did you not reply to those points Dee?
I've answered everything you asked
read the basic 5 points again in that link and show me how ; other than communication, that my code follows
I haven't a clue what you're on about , I've never mentioned or given an opinion on codes
. You can not do so.
What are you going on about are you drunk or on medication, you're making no sense.
That link gave you the definition of what qualifies a language to be one and my code fails it.
Your code fails it and your point is?
(now everyone; at this point in the debate, dee simply resorts to ridicule and insults)
I've done neither, you have claimed I said 7 things I never said all because your definition of language totally agrees with mine yet you claimed my definition left a lot to be desired, right?
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I would, in fact, call two languages different exactly when speaking one language does not guarantee understanding the other. I would not call the New York City dialect a different language than the Houston dialect: while there are differences, any New-Yorker will easily understand any Houston resident. On the other hand, Russian and Ukrainian are absolutely different languages, and while a Russian who does not speak Ukrainian may understand some parts of a Ukrainian speech, the understanding will be extremely incomplete.
If I swap "cat" for "abrakadabra", I will not have created a new language: while people will be confused by my use of this word, they will be able to understand from the context what I mean. But if I swap a thousand commonly used words, then most of my speech will not make much sense to them. That is what makes it a different language in my eyes.
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Your code is the same. If you practice speaking it enough, it will become as natural to you as speaking English, even if from the outside your speech may sound like gibberish. It is as if you had never heard of Dungeons and Dragons, then showed up at an active tabletop event and heard sentences like, "I roll the natural 20, bypassing your Charisma and Wisdom saving throws, dealing 1d12 physical damage, plus I have this bonus from the Eye of Kelemvor auto-critting flat ability damage" - you will not be able to make any sense out of it, even though the players themselves understand everything easily and do not actively try to obfuscate their language.
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You clearly stated.,...let us say i create fake words to specify english words; such as klik to mean cat, uster to mean you; and so on. perhaps i create 1000 of these words to match an english equivalent. I now have a thousand sounds to represent a thousand english words. I give the list to a thousand people and we all go around speaking these representational sounds. do i have a language or just a code?.........
That is a language once you can effectively communicatewith the other 999 peole , it's not a code wunless your goal is secrecy.
Your very first comment was "id say you have a language" so yes you did say it. If you now changeyourmind, that is fine my me
I haven't changed my mind I clearly stated....
Your very first comment was "id say you have a language" so yes you did say it. If you now changeyourmind, that is fine my me
No I haven't changed my mind why do you think so?
. As well, the link i poster gave five things a language must have to qualify as one.
You never asked for an essay on language you asked for a definition.
But I gave you the defintion of a language you agreed with it as you posted your definition which was nearly the same, right?
Those are the points ive been asking you to either agree or if not, show how my code follows them, if you say my code is a language.
No actually as my first statement addressed you debate heading and is correct.
However, you seem to be on the fence now. Firstyou sai i have a language, and now you claim you didnt say that.
No I didn't say that at all read above
So i also now ask, which is it? Do i have a language or a code? If you say both, then again, address the 5 points in the link as to how my code follows those points, in order for it to qualify as a language.
You still have a language regarding your debate topic / heading/ opening statement
.
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Forget it dee
I already have, my points are all perfectly valid and you're furious as you wanted a fight.
. You are daft.
I'm not the one who's confused over a code and a languge so I'd think someone that couldn't define either could be deemed daft right?
m not goingto play run in circles with you.
But that's exactly what you're at.
Either debate or forget it.
I've tried and for some reason you're in a fury as usual, bad day at work?
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You also mentioned that French sounds can be translated to other languages "in a pretty straight way"... That is not an opinion many translators would agree with: especially live translation is an extremely difficult and intense process, precisely because languages have elements that are not perfectly translatable into each other and have to be fuzzily translated based on the context. Word "Elenchus" from Ancient Greek used by Plato in his writings, for instance, has been so infamously difficult to translate that in most translators it is left completely untouched, so the readers can understand its approximate meaning from its usage.
If anything, phrases from your language are much easier to translate to English than French phrases, as there is a precise methodology one can use to achieve a 100% accurate translation, while from French to English you can hardly translate anything more complicated than "My name is X" 100% accurately.
The properties of language in the link you shared seem to only be agreed upon by the author, and many linguists would disagree with them. The second property - "Language is Arbitrary in Nature" - sounds just outright wrong to me, and none of the existing languages satisfies this property. There is an entire field of study in linguistics that tries to understand why people use the exact words they do to mean something. Why do we call an apple an "apple"? It is not arbitrary, and there is a set of historical etymological innovations that has led to this. How does one reconcile the "arbitrariness" of languages with the fact that languages have so much intersection and similarity - that "casa" in Spanish and "castle" in English refer to objects having a lot of similar properties? If a language is completely arbitrary, then how come a person from Spain can visit Portugal and recognize a lot of words without ever hearing a single word in Portuguese before?
The idea that "anything can be called anything" is extremely misleading; it is like saying that any event can be interpreted in any way. Sure, on some technical level it is true - but in practice, if a lion jumps at you from the bushes, you are not going to interpret it as "A yellow cat is showing affection to me; I should go and give it a hug!" The fact that there is a lot of freedom in one's response to certain needs does not imply that the response is arbitrary.
Furthermore, practical needs of the language naturally restrict some of these choices. Why do you think is the equivalent of "I" in every single language very short? Why is there no language that uses a 50-letter word for "I"? Because "I" is one of the most commonly used words, and therefore it must be as easy to say as possible. On the other hand, it is okay for a particular kind of a butterfly to be called "Oxybadistes hypomeloma" as it ever needs to be used by a very tiny fraction of the population in a very tiny fraction of contexts, and more often than not it is written and not spoken out loud.
It does not mean that you cannot invent a language that will have "Oxybadistes hypomeloma" for "I"; you can. But good luck getting a lot of people to learn your language and use it in their everyday lives.
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I wood say that all you have is just a code because when you analize it thats all it is just words to represent all ready existing words just like morse code.
The difference with a language is is that it is formulated by people living in the same environment sharing the same things like food and tasks and the whether and climate. So they evolve a language of sounds that they all have a commonality with. So in the end a code is some thing created for a purpose. In your case ist created for the heck of it for no reason. While a language is developed for communicating through a long time through the culture from where it comes from.
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Thats right because your got to realize that there are other elements such as feelings and biult around there day to day lifes. For example the French have one word for cold. The eskimos have a hundred word for cold deepending on where the cold is and what it relates to because they constantly live with cold.
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one of the basic things that people are not accepting is that language is an evolutionary process.
Really ? What people don't accept this? All languages evolve everyone knows this new languages as well as old.
It develops over time within a group, in a culture. You simply can not create an instant language with substitution of words, no matter how many speak it.
You can create a language and people have created a language, what do you mean " instant language "?
what i will concede is IF my thousand people who has the code, isolated themselves, and had children who were taught the code from birth, then and only then i may have the beginnings of a language; then it may evolve with those children as their environmental and social conditions play a part. Then and only then can my code be spoken by those children without the need to translate it back to the english substitutions
You're making no sense at all.
Create Your Own Language in 6 Steps
Learn more about artificial languages and create your own in just six steps.
Language learning
Creating your own language can be a fun and rewarding experience. It allows you to express yourself in a unique way, and it can also be a great tool for learning more about language structure and grammar in general.
In order to create a new language, you'll need to come up with a system for its grammar, vocabulary, and pronunciation. And, to do all that, it’s a great idea to base your language on other existing ones. In the article below, we’ll show you how to do that in six simple steps.
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Natural Languages vs. Constructed Languages
There are three kinds of languages in the world: natural languages, formal languages, and constructed languages. Natural languages are ones that developed naturally over the course of human history, like English, Spanish, and Japanese.
Formal languages are ones that have been consciously created by someone for use in logic, mathematics, computer science, or linguistics – like the programming languages used in computer code.
Constructed languages, or conlangs for short, fall somewhere between natural and formal languages. They were not developed naturally over time, but they also don’t follow any strict rules like programming languages do.
Instead, they're typically designed by one or more people to fit specific needs or goals. They are often used for worldbuilding purposes in works of fiction.
While creating a constructed language can be a fun project on its own, many conlang creators also use their new language for some practical purpose. This could include using it as an international auxiliary language – a language meant to be used as a universal second language that everyone can learn, like interlingua or esperanto.
Examples of Artificial Languages
Artificial languages come in all shapes and sizes, and serve all sorts of different purposes. Here are a few examples:
Klingon language
This artificial language was created for use in the "Star Trek" TV series. It's spoken by an alien race called the Klingons and is designed to sound unnatural to the human ear.
Many Star Trek fans learn to speak Klingon, but since its vocabulary is heavily centered around the sci-fi setting, it’s not very convenient in everyday use.
Na’vi language
This fictional language was created for use in the 2009 film "Avatar." Like Klingon, it was designed with a specific purpose in mind – to sound strange and alien.
In reality, Na’vi is actually based on the sounds of Navajo and other Native American languages. It was created by linguist Paul Frommer as part of his job at the University of Southern California.
Game of Thrones Languages
As a fantasy epic, the "Game of Thrones" book series and TV show include a range of fictional languages. Two of the most famous of these are Dothraki and High Valyrian, created by linguist David J. Peterson for the TV series.
Peterson drew inspiration for both of his conlangs from existing languages, such as Latin, Estonian, Inuktitut, and Turkish.
Middle Earth Languages
The "Lord of the Rings" book series is another famous example of a world where fictional languages are used to create a sense of otherness and immersion. And, their creator, J.R.R.Tolkien, has put great effort into the process.
Tolkien began creating languages when he was a teenager, and he continued until late in life. Some of these languages were later adapted into the fictional ones used in Middle Earth, such as different Elvish languages.
Get Started
You can make your language more complex or simple, but it is always a rewarding experience. Fortunately, you don't have to start from scratch – you can adopt words and grammar structures from other languages (for example, French). But, for the best results, it’s important to understand how the existing language that you’re using functions.
Determine the reason you want to create the language and what it will be used for. For example, naming languages are used primarily for short phrases like character names or places in a book.
A naming language doesn’t have complex grammar or syntax, but should fit well if you are developing a simple fictional language for your book or series. However, you'll need to dive deeper into the structure of that language if you want to use it in conversation with someone or if you really want to elaborate the worldbuilding process.
Once you’ve decided what kind of language you want to create, it's time to start working on it. Here are six steps that should help you with that.
Step 1: Work On the Sounds
One of the most important parts of a language is pronunciation. When it comes to creating your language, you'll need to think about how its words are supposed to sound.
Start by choosing sounds that sound natural and have an appropriate rhythm for the type of language you’re creating. This could be drawn from existing languages, like Latin or German, or completely unique choices.
To make the process easier, you can use the International Phonetic Alphabet (check their website) to come up with new sounds. Finally, remember to write down all the sounds, so you can remember them when building your language.
Step 2: Create a Writing System
Now that you have a start to the spoken language, it’s time to create the writing system of your language – draw your own letters to represent the sounds you’ve made up. To create your own alphabet and come up with the letters, use your native language as well as other existing languages.
Consider how you want your language to look on paper. For example, it can be a pictographic system like Chinese or Japanese. In that case, you also need to decide whether you want characters that are written horizontally or vertically, apart from creating the hieroglyphics.
If it's an alphabetic system like English or Spanish, you can base it on several existing alphabets, such as Latin, Cyrillic, Greek, or Georgian. In that case, you can also use the already existing letters or letter combinations and assign new sounds to them.
Step 3: Come Up with Basic Words
Now, you can think about some basic words that will later help you with the process of expanding your language. Start with a list of a few words, such as nouns, verbs, and conjunctions – the basics. Further on, you can create compound words based on these root words (see how such words are used in German).
Make sure that your language choices make sense for the type of culture and world you’ve created.
For example, if you're creating a low-tech society based in a tropical climate, think about what kind of animals and plants they would have around them on a daily basis, and try to figure out what characteristics their language would have as a result of this environment. Maybe it will resemble a birdsong?
Remember to keep notes of all the words you’ve created. You can create your own dictionary, and fill it in as you go.
Step 4: Build Consistent Grammar Rules and Discover How Sentences Are Built
Now that you have a list of words, it’s time to start building the grammar rules of your language. This is often one of the most difficult parts, because it involves describing the patterns that govern how your language works.
Start by figuring out what kind of sentence structures are possible in this language and what they look like. Some languages, such as English or French, generally use a Subject-Object-Verb order for their sentences. However, other languages like Polish or Russian don't follow these kinds of rules – here, verbs can be put in many different places within a sentence.
Next, think how tenses work in your language: do you need markers for past, present, and future? What about the point in time within a sentence? You can also choose whether you want your language to imply or not imply its action going on at the moment of speaking (as in English: "I am running" but "I run").
Think about how nouns and articles work: do they have genders? Do they need to be pluralized?
Above all, keep these rules consistent. Write them down to remember them later on. But, feel free to add exceptions and rule-breakers – this will help your language look more natural.
Step 5: Give Your Language a Name
Now, think of a name for your new language – this will be the official term you'll use to refer to it. It can be based on its country of origin, like French or Swahili; your own name for it, like Esperanto; or something completely random, like Klingon from Star Trek.
Remember that naming languages can be fun: take your time and enjoy the process! And, don’t limit yourself: if you want to create two parallel versions of the same language with different names – go ahead.
Step 6: Practice Your New Language
The final step to creating your own language is to actually use it! You can start by writing simple sentences or dialogues, and then read them out loud and listen to how they sound. This will help you identify any possible problems with pronunciation and rhythms of the new language.
An easy way to practice speaking without an actual conversation partner is to create a diary in your new language and write articles about topics that interest you. This way, you'll be able to not only practice the grammar rules, but also create more vocabulary words.
And, don't forget that creating a new language, just like learning one, requires time and effort. Stay patient and keep practicing for as long as it takes until you feel comfortable using your new tongue.
Bottom Line
Creating your own language can be an enjoyable and rewarding experience, and it's not as difficult as you might think! All you need is some creativity, patience, and a willingness to learn.
In this article, we've outlined the basics of how to create a language – from coming up with vocabulary words to building grammar rules. So, why not give it a try now? The sky's the limit when it comes to what you can create – go and have fun with it!
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Ah right I get what you're saying now. So its not a language and if it was it would be utterly useless as a code it seems pretty useless as well.
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Yes that's the way codes work.for the purpose of secrecy.
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Well your got to realize that you can’t realy on spell checkers any way. I find that they don’t work well so I just turn them off. They don’t analize the hole of the text so they can’t really put it in the right contesk.
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