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The following sources were researched for this post:
Studies on Healing:
Studies on Other Outcomes:
Several double-blind studies have been conducted on the efficacy of prayer, aiming to isolate its potential impact while minimizing bias and placebo effects.
1. Studies on Healing:
2. Studies on Other Outcomes:
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I appreciate your agreement with my post about focusing our efforts.
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Forgive me, I'm going to briefly just mention some things I've said before, in the hopes that we can then move beyond restating points we've made before.
1) As I mentioned before - the majority of the evidence says prayer work. Again, here is the quote:
2) lots of studies have shown that prayer works, for example:
From
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/12776468/'
A systematic review of the quality of research on hands-on and distance healing: clinical and laboratory studies
Results: A total of 45 laboratory and 45 clinical studies published between 1956 and 2001 met the inclusion criteria. Of the clinical studies, 31 (70.5%) reported positive outcomes as did 28 (62%) of the laboratory studies; 4 (9%) of the clinical studies reported negative outcomes as did 15 (33%) of the laboratory studies. The mean percent overall internal validity for clinical studies was 69% (65% for hands-on healing and 75% for distance healing) and for laboratory studies 82% (82% for hands-on healing and 81% for distance healing).
90 studies from reputable journals have shown that prayer works.
3) Medical training believes prayer works as it has been incorporated into training for doctors:
See Fox News:
4) More studies that show prayer works:
From Pub Med:
Effects of intercessory prayer on patients with rheumatoid arthritis
Results: Patients receiving in-person intercessory prayer showed significant overall improvement during 1-year follow-up. ..Conclusions: In-person intercessory prayer may be a useful adjunct to standard medical care for certain patients with rheumatoid arthritis.
From Sage Journals:
A Randomized Trial of the Effect of Prayer on Depression and Anxiety
Results:
Conclusions:
The Effect of Prayer on Depression and Anxiety: Maintenance of Positive Influence One Year after Prayer Intervention
Results:
Conclusions:
From JAMA
A Randomized, Controlled Trial of the Effects of Remote, Intercessory Prayer on Outcomes in Patients Admitted to the Coronary Care Unit
Results Compared with the usual care group (n=524), the prayer group (n=466) had lower mean±SEM weighted (6.35±0.26 vs 7.13±0.27; P=.04) and unweighted (2.7±0.1 vs 3.0±0.1; P=.04) CCU course scores. Lengths of CCU and hospital stays were not different.
Conclusions Remote, intercessory prayer was associated with lower CCU course scores. This result suggests that prayer may be an effective adjunct to standard medical care.
Effects of intercessory prayer on patients with rheumatoid arthritis
Results: Patients receiving in-person intercessory prayer showed significant overall improvement during 1-year follow-up. ..
Conclusions: In-person intercessory prayer may be a useful adjunct to standard medical care for certain patients with rheumatoid arthritis.
The Effect of Prayer on Depression and Anxiety: Maintenance of Positive Influence One Year after Prayer Intervention
Results:
Conclusions:
From JAMA website
A Randomized, Controlled Trial of the Effects of Remote, Intercessory Prayer on Outcomes in Patients Admitted to the Coronary Care Unit
Results Compared with the usual care group (n=524), the prayer group (n=466) had lower mean±SEM weighted (6.35±0.26 vs 7.13±0.27; P=.04) and unweighted (2.7±0.1 vs 3.0±0.1; P=.04) CCU course scores. Lengths of CCU and hospital stays were not different.
Conclusions Remote, intercessory prayer was associated with lower CCU course scores. This result suggests that prayer may be an effective adjunct to standard medical care.
I referenced a few summary of prayer studies that showed that most prayer studies concluded that prayer works:
Such as:
A SYSTEMATIC REVIEW OF THE QUALITY OF RESEARCH ON HANDS-ON AND DISTANCE HEALING: CLINICAL AND LABORATORY STUDIES,
which examined the quality of studies of hands-on healing and distance healing that were published between 1955 and 2001. There were 90 identified studies of which 45 had been conducted in clinical settings and 45 in laboratory settings. they reported that 71% of the clinical studies and 62% of the laboratory studies reported positive outcomes; and that the overall internal validity for the studies on distance healing was 75% for the clinical investigations and 81% for the laboratory investigations. So the bulk of studies shows prayer works.
in a systematic review of distance prayer
The Efficacy of “Distant Healing A Systematic Review of Randomized Trials
Again, have a great Christmas.
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The following sources were researched for this post:
General historical context and plague/pandemic examples:
Specific examples of prayer and faith in historical events:
Throughout history, there have been numerous instances where prayer proved ineffective in combating major illnesses and pandemics. Here are some key examples:
Plagues and Pandemics:
These examples highlight the crucial distinction between faith and its limitations in directly addressing physical health challenges.
These instances underscore the importance of relying on evidence-based medical practices and scientific methods to combat epidemics and other health crises. While faith and prayer can offer comfort and hope, relying solely on them during times of illness without seeking appropriate medical care can be disastrous.
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Anyway, the issue of unanswered prayer has been brought up before in this debate, at least I think it was this debate. There are many reasons why prayers may not be answered (I think I provided a list of between 7 - 10 reasons). Again, God is not a vending machine, where you can just push the right button and get what you want. The fact that some prayers don't get answered does not mean that no prayers get answered. That's not a logical conclusion. The essential question is do any prayers get answered? Well, the evidence overwhelmingly says they do:
From Yahoo Finance:
National Day of Prayer Study: 85% of Americans Connect with a Higher Power; Increasing their Practice During and Since Covid Lockdowns
Or how about this Vox (leftist) article:
48 percent of Americans pray every day. Here's what they pray for.
So the majority of people who pray, claim their prayers are answered at least some of the time. If even 1 prayer is answered, the debate is over. It seems unlikely that hundreds of millions of people are wrong and much more likely that God does answer prayer. The many examples of miracles I have mentioned is strong evidence that God has indeed supernaturally answered the prayers of people.
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@just_sayin said: If even 1 prayer is answered, the debate is over.
What exactly is an "answered prayer"? Was it simply coincidence, confirmation bias, or a natural event that would have happened regardless of prayer? Moreover, your claim is ambiguous.
In addition, if God knows the future, wouldn't he know he would change his mind as a result of prayer? Why go through a silly charade?
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First, let me address the question about God and the future. In previous discussions I have gone into the A and B theory of time scientific debate (I'm an A theory guy for us humans, but believe God sees everything more from a B theory perspective because he is outside of space-time). But, rather than retrace that, I will just make a logical observation. God's foreknowledge of time need not be causative. God created space-time, he is not restricted to linear time. He can see the future, but that does not mean that his foreknowledge is deterministic and that we have no free will.
Now you asked how can you know if a prayer is just a coincidence and not confirmation bias. I have spent a lot of time in this debate detailing miracles that defy medical explanation as examples of this. Forgive me for recapping, but I have mentioned Barbara Commiskey's story of how she was sent home to die. She had a disease that had taken her ability to control her limbs away and hadn't walked in many years. It had also caused her lung to collapse and her intestines to stop working. She was also blind. Her doctor's expected her to die in a week or so and had sent her home. A local radio station had heard of her plight and had asked listeners to pray for her and write cards to her. On the day that 2 people delivered 400 or so cards, she heard God speak to her and got up. She walked out of the room and then realized she was walking for the first time, and also that she could see. She went to the doctor the next morning and they confirmed her healing of blindness, lameness, her lungs were restored, and her intestines were still working.
No less than 3 of Barbara Cummiskey Snyder's doctors have written either books or case studies on her story. If you would like to hear her story in her own words here you go (start at 43:45)
https://1c15.co.uk/barbara-snyder-barbara-cummiskey-snyder-healed-from-multiple-sclerosis/
Here's her story in the Chicago Tribune, Sept 26, 1983
You can read about her testimony for yourself. Here are just two books available on Amazon:
The Case for Miracles: A Journalist Investigates Evidence for the Supernatural
andMiracles Today
In Miracles Today, her story is told in the introduction, so you won't have to read far.You can read her story in Christianity Today, Dec. 16, 1983:
One Who Took up Her Bed and Walked
You can watch her story on youtube:
If you would rather listen to a podcast, then you can listen here:
https://podtail.com/en/podcast/life-money-and-hope-with-chris-brown/episode-46-miracles-still-happen/
I've mentioned the book Miracles Today by Craig Keener. Here he is at Biola University discussing Barbara Cummiskey's miracle:
You can read the account from his book in this PDF sample. pages 6-10 (corresponding to the preface).
https://www.pcabookstore.com/samples/15426.pdf
An excerpt from those pages:
You can see former investigative journalist and author of the Case for Miracles, Lee Strobel, interview Barbara Cummiskey at 40:40 of this video:
Her surgeon, Dr Harold P Adolph tells Barbara Cummiskey's story in his book:
Today's Decisions Tomorrow's Destiny
Some statements from Dr. Harold P Adolph on Barbara CummiskeyFrom Miracles Today:
Here is Dr Harold Adolph's signed medical statement that Barbara Cummiskey, after being prayed for, had no signs of MS.
Her doctors called it a miracle. There is no medical explanation for her instantaneous recovery, where her legs were not even atrophied, You would have to just bitterly cling to your faith that their are no miracles to deny the facts of her story.
I've also mentioned the Miracle of Calanda where the guy had his leg amputated but it grew back over night. Now unless you can explain how a leg that was amputated 2 years earlier can magically reappear this is a miracle and, there is no scientific explanation. The story has a lot of documentation from the doctors who amputated the leg, from people who knew him without it, to doctors who verified it had regrown.
As noted from Wikipedia:
One would have to ignore a lot of evidence to cling to their belief that miracles don't happen.
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I believe I mentioned around here before the thought-provoking conversation I had with a Shinto follower in Japan. What a discussion! My points were acknowledged and directly addressed, and in a way that I had not seen before, in a way that made even me, absolutely unhinged anti-tradition extremist at the time, concede that my own position was full of holes.
I am sorry to say that this weeks-long debate has not had even 0.01% of the intellectual value of that conversation that lasted a few hours.
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I can understand, that if you don't think it is possible to prove a miracle, then this debate would bore you. You have closed your mind - as the statement 'I do not think such a proof is possible' suggests; well, actually states.
Regarding the problem of making a science of the gaps argument - its pretty straightforward. Science has already been consulted. In Barbara Commiskey's case, some of the best doctors of the Mayo Clinic treated her and they knew her case intimately and knew there was no scientific explanation. You felt it was wrong for a doctor to use the word 'miracle', but if something is medically impossible - what term should be used? The reality of her healing can not be denied. Rather than admit, that science doesn't know and will never be able to explain it, you cling to the belief, that even when science says it doesn't know, to trust you, science can solve the problem. That's a logical fallacy. There is no evidence of this. The only evidence is science can't explain it. You place far more faith in science, than science has shown, it merits.
Since you think we should always cling to the notion that science can and will find an answer, just what is the explanation for the Miracle of Calanda, where the guys leg grows back 2 years after amputation? This topic may bore you, but I assure you, I am very interested in hearing your scientific explanation for this one. I would love to hear you express the possible science explanations.
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Likewise. However, I am quite impartial when it comes to evaluating people's arguments. I am not saying that you cannot make a strong argument in favor of your position regarding effects of prayer and miracles - but I do not believe that you have addressed my criticisms here honestly. That is not at all a personal attack on you; goddess knows I am guilty of that as much as anyone else. That is purely the comment on this particular debate.
It is very hard to offend me for I give very little importance to personal labels. I am simply saying that you did not address my criticisms of your position directly and, in many cases, misrepresented them. Just as you did right now.
Something that in principle is unexplainable by science cannot exist, pretty much, by definition. Something, however, can exist and be unexplainable by science in practice, or, at least, very far out of reach of the modern science - however, it is impossible to prove that it exists, even if it does. This is the exact opposite view to what you are attributing to me: I have no clue whether science will ever explain certain things you are referencing (assuming they even took place, for which the cited evidence is very shaky), or whether science as we know it even can explain it. What I do know is that science being unable to explain it is not a reason to assume some kind of divine intervention. There was no need to invent Zeus when no one knew how lightning worked, and now we look at the ancients' naivety and laugh. Well, we can just as much look at the modern people's naivety and laugh when they invoke "god", making the same blunder as people millennia ago made.
I am not sure what else I can say to get through. You just stubbornly refuse to acknowledge my point, instead criticizing a strawman. I like you as a debater, but I do not think that you are putting enough effort into this discussion.
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Something that in principle is unexplainable by science cannot exist, pretty much, by definition.
Now I am fallible and could be mistaken, but I'm just not seeing where I have misunderstood your argument. Isn't the above sentence essentially saying 'even when science says it doesn't know, trust me, it knows'. The statement assumes all that happens is by natural causes. It precludes the supernatural, which is begging the question. The supernatural is what is at question here. How does space-time begin to exist? Whatever creates it, must itself be outside of space-time - or if you prefer - outside nature. Once again, I point out you are a) begging the question, by assuming the supernatural can't exist, and 2) engaging in a science of the gaps argument that claims when there are gaps in knowledge or information, we must go to a default of 'even when science has said it doesn't know, trust me, it really does know.'
assuming they even took place, for which the cited evidence is very shaky
SMH. For example, the Miracle of Calanda, the guy who's leg grew back overnight after being amputated - has numerous witness who testified under oath. There are multiple testimonies from the doctor's who sawed the leg off. 2 other doctors testified to the leg being restored. As well as 24 witnesses who under oath testified of the miracle of knowing the man before and after the event.
I challenged you to provide natural explanations for the the Miracle of Calanda, where the guys leg grows back 2 1/2 years after amputation and for the case of Barbara Commiskey, who having been sent home to die, immediately is able to walk, see, have her lungs and intestines instantly healed. You ran, like a chicken plucker who just heard someone yell 'Ice is coming!' (That one is for you @Barnardot). Since science always knows, what's the scientific explanation to a leg growing back overnight? Still waiting on an answer.
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That’s right but since there is no such evidence any where at all so that’s not going to happen is it.
And you can keep on posting those completely false and extreme reports as you keep doing but in the end you’re just lieing and lieing hoping that some one believes that crap. But no body does do they because I think people here know by now that you a a persistent lier and dishonest peace of scum and don’t believe a single thing you say.
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You keep posting this claim again and again, yet you are the only one making it. I have never said anything like this; it is an absurd statement.
By definition, the cause of every natural effect must itself be natural. Unnatural cause can only lead to unnatural effect, that is effect that is not a part of this Universe, hence, for all intents and purposes, that does not exist.
However, not every effect necessarily must have a cause. "Cause" and "effect" are human constructs, they are our attempt to build a framework within which models of various events can be built, predictions can be made, and decisions can be elucidated. It is not at all obvious that everything must have a cause that is a subject to human search. For example, what is the cause of the fact that 1+1=2? You will be hard-pressed to answer this question in a meaningful way - yet this fact is demonstrably true, and it is quite obvious that it is not a creation of the Spider Goddess, but something quite fundamental to any conceivable reality.
Even a very superficial search suggests that the consensus among historians that the "Miracle of Calanda" actually took place is absent. And I did not "ran", I addressed your question. As I said, I have no explanation and have no clue if science will ever come up with one. What I do know is that the religious explanation is as terrible as any random fantasy explanation I can come up with. The tooth fairy was horny and had sex with the Spider Goddess, and the child they conceived was the Calanda guy's leg.
Please stop lying about my words and try reading what I actually say. You say that I am one of your favorite debaters, but you sure put little effort into understanding what my contribution to debates actually is.
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No, and such a sentence would be self-contradictory. For that matter, science cannot know or not know - rather, plausible scientific explanation can be available or not available at the moment. There is no intelligent being called "science" that knows or does not know something. My claim is that it might be impossible to say that science can never explain something, and even if it was possible to say so, it would imply that nothing else could explain that either. That science will eventually explain everything is obviously false and is not a part of my argument.
You keep posting this claim again and again, yet you are the only one making it. I have never said anything like this; it is an absurd statement.
@MayCaesar, I don't want to misrepresent you. I'm still not sure how I am misrepresenting you. When I remark that you think that 'even when science says it doesn't know, trust me, it knows', I am using an anthropomorphism. I do not believe there is a being called science that actually speaks. I don't think that 'science' has a literal brain that thinks. So, if it helps I'll paraphrase my comment to say 'I think MayCaesar believes that science (aka - nature) is all there is, and that there is no supernatural, and that even if he can't explain things, he will default to thinking that science (nature) has an explanation that just hasn't been stated or discovered yet." Does that help? Am I wrong? it isn't as catchy as 'even when science says it doesn't know, trust me, it knows'.
Do you believe that there is no possibility of the supernatural? I have asked this before. I assume you don't when you say things like
By definition, the cause of every natural effect must itself be natural.
That doesn't seem like a logical conclusion to me. Why can't something be supernaturally caused? The fact the universe has a beginning seems to suggest that very thing. If something has a beginning, then it must have a cause, and to cause space-time, something would have to be outside of space-time to have created it. If you think I'm wrong, what science allows the thing in question to create itself? I'll wait for an answer.
If you believe there is no possibility of the supernatural, then you do really believe that 'even when science says it doesn't know, trust me, it knows'. That doesn't mean that we can explain it, but I think you do believe that since you see everything has having a natural explanation, then science must be able to explain it ultimately since the answer can't be outside of nature. Have I misunderstood your point? If not, then, even though you don't like the expression I use, it is fitting.
I challenged you to provide natural explanations for the the Miracle of Calanda, (or the case of Barbara Commiskey, or any of the other 5 or so miracles I have provided documentation for) and thus far you have not. Since the account of the man's leg growing back overnight after having been cut off two and 1/2 years earlier is well documented in a trail setting with no less than 24 eyewitness testimonies, just what is science's explanation? If after consulting science and finding no answer, unless you have an instance of a human having their leg cut off with an axe and then it grows back 2 1/2 years later, then is it illogical to assume that a supernatural answer may be needed? To me, if science fails. and in this case, it certainly has failed to provide any answer, then it seems quite logical to assume a supernatural explanation. Why are you opposed to this? And if everything has a natural explanation, then please, reveal the secret.
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Yes, once again, it is wrong. I have not suggested that there is always an explanation, it just has not yet been discovered. There could be things that will never be discovered, or even things that are principally undiscoverable - for instance, everything beyond the event horizon exists in virtually any sense the word "exist" is used in, yet it is undiscoverable even in principle.
However, if something cannot be discovered by science, then it cannot be discovered period. Science is simply rigorous epistemological application of logic, and anything that is not a subject to be learned in this way is not a subject to be learned in any way - for it constitutes a logical contradiction.
"Supernatural" does not exist in nature by definition, so it does not exist anywhere other than in someone's mind. Similarly, a supernatural cause cannot exist, and nothing that cannot exist can cause something that does exist. Something can exist and not have a cause, but nothing that exists can have a cause that does not exist.
"Cause", once again, is a human term, it is not something that intrinsically is a part of the Universe. Existence of the Universe itself cannot have a cause, for there is no Universe for this cause to be embedded in. When we talk about the Universe's "beginning", we do not imply that there is a point in time t=0 at which the Universe emerged, and at an earlier point t=-1 it did not exist. What we imply is that t=0 is the earliest time point which it makes sense to talk about, for "before" it there was no time, and we get a contradiction in terms.
Something a student of physics learns very early is that many things in physics defy easy everyday analogies. Ever studied quantum mechanics? Feynman once said that in quantum mechanics you should " and calculate", meaning that the more you try to understand it intuitively, the more derailed you will get. In your everyday life you are not used to such things as there not being a cause of something, or time being relative, or things not really being solid particles, but rather waves - but in physics you have to deal with those.
There is no possibility of the supernatural, indeed, and there is no possibility for there to provably be something that is not a subject to being studied by science. That does not imply that there is no possibility for a significant expansion of the current models. For example, the simulation hypothesis one day may be proven to be true, and we may be able to find a way to interact with the world from which ours is being simulated - that is somewhat similar to the world in which there is afterlife, or gods. But if it cannot be proven to be true, then it is just a fantasy. It is impossible there to be a phenomena that cannot be studied scientifically, but that provably exists, for science precisely is the study of phenomena that exist. If there is some kind of creature that can affect things in our world in a way that defies modern physics, then the behavior of that creature can be studied, and its existence can be discovered. Random "witness testimonies" is not a discovery, however.
Asking the same question over and over again and ignoring my answers is not going to change them. I have no explanation for the "Miracle of Calanda", assuming that it actually took place. That is something you naturally learn as a human: you cannot always understand and explain everything. Heck, I do not think that I understand and can explain even 0.0000000000001% of things that happen every second on our planet alone. Welcome to the world of limited intelligent beings!
Masking ignorance with fantasies, however, is not going to cut it. I am very comfortable with acknowledging that I do not know certain things - in fact, if I knew everything, life would be incredibly boring, so I am very happy every time I come across something new, something challenging my preconceptions. That does not at all cause me to invoke the Spider Goddess and say, "See, I understand everything!" That would be a very childish thing to do, and I would hope that most children grow out of it around the same time they are done playing in a sandbox.
On that note, people only do this with inconsequential things. Whether there is a magic creature that casts spells and randomly heals random people is pretty inconsequential to our everyday lives, so people get away with having a gazillion of religious and other superstitious explanations. But try to mask your ignorance with fantasies when it comes to something impactful... "I do not know if gasoline is safe to drink, but I read in one book that it should make me into a transformer, so here I go!" - natural selection will put a stop to this one very quickly.
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And you can keep on saying that every time someone here pulls you up about your excessive lieing as you do but why on earth don’t you get off this site because people do not like an obsessive lier.
It would not be bad if you lied about some ones back side looking good but all your disgusting lies and misinformation revolve around your self centered obsession for offending and insulting others. Get the heck off here and come back after getting therapy.
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I got to say I admire the level of faith you have. Honestly, I just don't have enough faith to be an atheist. To me it is illogical to think science can explain something, when after science has been consulted and has been unable to find a logical reason for a situation, to cling to the belief 'that even when science says it doesn't know, give it time, science knows'. For example in the example of the miracle of Calanda, if trickery has been eliminated, which it was, and science says 'chopped off human legs can't grow back overnight', then when a chopped off leg grows back overnight, it seems we should accept science's answer and look for another cause. Your blind faith in science seems to go against the very thing you believe in, science. Science has limits and constraints. To think of it as all-powerful seems more of a faith claim to me.
Maybe you could pray to science and ask it how to grow back a severed human leg overnight. If it is science, then it should be repeatable, right? it should not be impossible to replicate. Yet, the verified miracle happened. Maybe you should put your faith in something beyond nature, since it seems unable to perform miracles. just sayin
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Not necessarily. The scientific method can be used to study any phenomenon in the world, but it is not the only method that can be used to study most phenomena. You do not need to use science to learn how to cook an omelet, for example, although one could argue that the elements of the scientific method are going to be involved even here.
What there cannot be is a phenomenon that cannot be studied by means of science, but can be studied by other means. Indeed, nature encompasses all that exists; anything outside of nature is, by definition, fiction. The scientific method is applicable to study of anything that reflects a certain law, a certain pattern in the Universe. If there is no law/pattern, if there is just complete randomness, then human mind is incapable of studying it, for we think in patterns. And there cannot be complete randomness, I would argue, for the very fact that we can have this conversation without everything breaking apart randomly every femtosecond suggests that there is a degree of order in the Universe.
I have said on numerous occasions that science has limits and constraints; that it is not all-powerful. I also do not have "faith": all of my arguments are derived from pure logic, from the definition of the words we are using.
You constantly attributing arguments to me that I have not made is not going to achieve any outcome, other than the one I pointed above: making the intellectual value of this conversation null.
Once again, there are things in this Universe I do not understand, and things I will never understand. There may be things that no intelligent being will ever understand, or even things that are in principle not understandable to an intelligent mind.
I am perfectly comfortable with that. I am not going to say, "Oh, it is a miracle!", and close the door. This kind of thinking is just like a kid who has been told that there is a monster under his bed and decided to never look under the bed ever again out of fear of being eaten by the monster. No, I will accept things that have been demonstrated to be true, and be comfortable with ambiguity of those that have not. Religion tries to conceal ignorance with fake knowledge, but I embrace ignorance and chaos that comes with it.
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If all data point to a supernatural creator as the answer, your faith will not allow you to recognize the truth because it is not a naturalistic one. You do indeed have faith in your god, 'science'. You are deceiving only yourself on this issue. There is no naturalistic explanation of a guy's amputated leg growing back over night. If you are intellectually honest, you could admit this. Your faith in science as being the solution is great, but not logical. I can admire how you will ignore facts to cling to your faith in science, however, no matter how much I can appreciate the faith in science you have, it is illogical to ignore the facts.
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That is extreme and off this planet it’s not even funny. For your f ing info science has totally nothing to do with faith at all and trying your usual dishonest trick of turning the tables only cements your already proven record of being as dishonest as you possibly can to push totally wackey dishonest views.
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"There is no naturalistic explanation to X" is not something anyone who is intellectually honest can ever state, regardless of what X is. On the other hand, if you want to make a statement on faith and not on logic and facts, then that is precisely what you would say.
This entire conversation is (I am exaggerating in order to get the point across) is like a patient in a mental ward thinking that it is his doctor who should be in the mental ward, and he himself is perfectly sane. The habit of taking things on faith, rather than through logical reasoning, is so ingrained in you that you cannot even comprehend what it would mean to not live by it - therefore you assume that everyone else also lives by it. Yet it is just you (and other people thinking along these lines).
This analogy is especially fitting given how you keep attributing views to me that I do not hold, just like a mental ward patient does not see what his eyes see. The idea that I would "ignore facts" is based on nothing but the caricature you created in your mind to make it easier for you to hold the set of incompatible beliefs you do. That set cannot survive an honest encounter with a logically thinking individual, so whenever such an individual is encountered, you have to repeatedly tell yourself, "It is not real! It is not real! What he says is not real! I know what he reeeeeeally thinks!"
And as I pointed before, this is just something people do when it comes to religions or other abstract ideologies that do not have an immediate impact on their lives. There is another fellow here, @Openminded, that has a habit of jumping to illogical conclusions on faith - and you point the weakness of her arguments well. Well, your arguments on "miracles" are very similar in substance.
Just like she sees sexism everywhere where anyone does not immediately jump to the same misanthropic conclusions as her, you see faith everywhere where anyone does not immediately jump to the same fantastic conclusions as you when it comes to "miracles". Do you observe the parallels here?
I am saying it to clarify that, in my view, you, just like anyone else, are very much capable of logical thinking. However, on certain topics you have so much emotional, social and intellectual investment, that applying logical thinking to them has become painful. Everyone is guilty of that, including me. I think I do a good job keeping silent when I feel that it is not my mind speaking, but my bleeding heart - but no one is infallible.
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When you say that science can explain this, that is a science of the gaps argument. The fact is science CAN'T explain it. There are no naturalistic explanations. Now you keep saying I have attributed false views to you, but then you speak and affirm everything I said about what you believe. You really do believe that even when science says it doesn't know, trust you, deep down science has the answer.
The idea that I would "ignore facts" is based on nothing but the caricature you created in your mind to make it easier for you to hold the set of incompatible beliefs you do.
@MayCaesar, you have claimed the miracle of Calanda has a naturalistic explanation. I asked what that was, and you can't provide it. I think you know there is none. Amputated human legs don't naturally grow back overnight. Your faith in science and oddly, your science, are at odds with each other. My faith doesn't need this event to be a miracle, your faith REQUIRES that this event not be a miracle. You are much more of the man of faith in this discussion than I am. You are the one unwilling to consider a non-naturalistic explanation. You are the closed minded one here. You are willing to ignore the verified factual evidence, to claim that this a naturalistic occurrence. Let's not pretend that you aren't the one operating on faith here.
There is another fellow here, @Openminded, that has a habit of jumping to illogical conclusions on faith - and you point the weakness of her arguments well. Well, your arguments on "miracles" are very similar in substance.
Comparing me to @Openminded?!! Now that was just mean . I am open to alternative explanations to the verified event, where the the guy's leg, being amputated, and then cauterized, and then 2 1/2 years later, after praying intently, grew back overnight. All of these details are verified by witness testimony. If you have a naturalistic explanation - then give it now. Otherwise, it is your faith in science that seems to have crumbled under examination, like an @Openminded argument crumbles under facts.
Happy New Year by the way.
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Natural evidence cannot point to supernatural cause, just like a plan in chess cannot rely on the rules of checkers. If there is no natural explanation to something, then there is no explanation to it - there can be a fantasy pseudo-explanation that will satisfy a less critical and inquisitive mind, but there cannot be a real explanation that does not defy basic logic.
I have not "claimed the miracle of Calanda has a naturalistic explanation". I am done responding to things you put in my mouth. Criticize my actual statements, or talk to someone else. Like I said before, the intellectual value of this conversation has been so far exactly zero, for I have been talking to someone who has not been talking to me.
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Thats right. For once you said something that isnt a lie.
If. Thats right. if. And since there is not one zippo peace of evidence at all any where that points any where near the direction of supernatural cause then it should not be considered at all.
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No, prayer does not work. If there are any documented cases of praying alone caused the regeneration of fully functioning limbs that have been amputated, then I might be persuaded.
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THE MIRACLE IN ZARAGOZA CALANDA
Because the king and archbishop held a tribunal to investigate the incident, there are hundreds of pages of documentation with at least 24 witnesses, including the doctors who amputated the guy's leg, to the doctor's who verified that it was regrown.
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So a bunch of delusional con artists held a tribunal to investigate extream delusional reports reported in an extream delusional con artist site.
gee every one is going to believe you this time. I mean the evidence is just so accurate and concise and irefutable that it cant be denied. Thats right. I will now stop calling you Lier Boy because you have turned a new corner and coming out with descent arguments with proper authoritative facts from reliable sauces. I'm going to sharpen my axe and test that right now.
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Researchers from a University in the east coast United States set up precise electro magnetic fiel equipment to study the magnetic field over the church during mass. Before mass the readings were per usual. During the mass a giant blue field hovered over the church during mass. The link below is a similar example of this study
https://www.panther-power.com/2014/11/04/the-science-of-prayers/
Those who dont believe in prayer are way behind on the concept of power. So to answer your question, YES prayers do actually work.
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Researchers from a University in the east coast United States set up precise electro magnetic fiel equipment to study the magnetic field over the church during mass. Before mass the readings were per usual. During the mass a giant blue field hovered over the church during mass. The link below is a similar example of this study
https://www.panther-power.com/2014/11/04/the-science-of-prayers/
Post up peer reviwed papers from recognised scientists supporting your assertions. Come on buddy you link to a site called panther power which is it seems is a new age trype site promoting utter , seriously?
Those who dont believe in prayer are way behind on the concept of power.
Tell me exactly how prayer worked for millions of Jews who begged for gods intervention as they were led into gas Chambers?
So to answer your question, YES prayers do actually work.
Prove it.
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They do not and the article you posted is 100% total made up trash from an extreme site. If you think that you have even the slightest chance of debating then quoting fake evidence won’t get you any where.
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He sure is quoting a heap of fake made up nonsense isn’t he? It reminds me of some one else who keeps getting kicked off this site and man he was even more dishonest and disgusting and no body liked his fat liers. Gee he even talked like you. Real wired don’t you think?
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Sounds like that Barndoor guy is totally obsessed with the wonderful debater called Dee. The guy is no longer on here and yet its all you , Maxx, Bogend and just lyin can talk about..
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@Barnardot @JulesKorngold
Does praying work to achieve what? Here is my personal belief though I grew up Unitarian Universalist and 85% of UUs believe in evolution. While I do believe in a higher power, it tends to be a stronger version of myself putting the responsibility onto me.
I simply do not believe that one´s prayers can change the outcome of what they are praying for. Praying helps the person who is praying by giving them a sense of solace, peace and control. Praying will never change the outcome of something. The overused phrase ¨Thoughts and Prayers¨ to me is self-serving. The ¨thoughts¨ may be accurate and genuine, but the ¨prayers¨ is self-serving; it may be intended to comfort the person in trouble, but it merely serves the person doing the praying.
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The miracle of the guy's leg growing back happened overnight. Well, he went to bed with no leg, and his mother woke him up with one. The Catholics are very cautious on calling something a miracle. They investigate the claims and put skeptics on the team to ensure that each miracle can stand up to interrogation. In the case I mentioned, they literally held a court hearing about it that went on for close to a year. There are almost 1,000 pages of documentation on it.. At least 24 witnesses testified to the event. This included the doctors that sawed off the guy's leg and cauterized it. The documentation is pretty substantial and even contains medical records detailing the guy's leg becoming stronger after it grew back. Its pretty hard to say that this was a faked incident, or that it didn't happen.
It seems irrelevant that it happened four hundred years ago. If we can believe other events happened in the past, then time isn't an issue. Science hasn't changed so much that we can't identify a leg where there was none there before. So, the need for it to be today, seems like special pleading to me.
I've provided several modern day miracles in this thread. Some of people who were blind, lame, and even some who were dead who came back to life. I've provided peer reviewed medical documentation, actual video of a paralyzed woman's first steps, testimony from doctor's at the Mayo clinic, news accounts, tv interviews, and medical records - the guy who died and came back to life was a doctor and provided documentation and scans of everything.. No amount of evidence will convince those whose faith is in scientism. Even when science says it can't explain the miracle, its followers will insist that science still has the answers - just scan through some of the posts to see for yourself.
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I think prayer acts like any other self help positive thinking technique. Like when people are afraid to ask for a raise. They can't do it because the boss might not think they deserve one and they won't know what to say in the face of such rejection. Then a coworker tells them they deserve a raise. That causes an internal reaction that results in the self evaluation of their contributions, giving them the confidence to ask for that raise.
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I think prayer acts like any other self help positive thinking technique. Like when people are afraid to ask for a raise. They can't do it because the boss might not think they deserve one and they won't know what to say in the face of such rejection. Then a coworker tells them they deserve a raise. That causes an internal reaction that results in the self evaluation of their contributions, giving them the confidence to ask for that raise.
So why are you using the term "prayer" if that's the case? As the term " prayer" has a specific definition as in ........
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The problem is it's an extrodinary claim lacking extrodinary evidence. What tools were at their disposal to say, preserve the old leg? What took a year and a 1000 pages for 24 people including the mother to say "he didn't have a leg then he did"? And science has changed tremendously since then. Now days science falsifies claims before they're accepted as opposed to accepting something on faith and trying prove to others what they discovered. There is the fact that the Catholic is very cautious about protecting secrets as well. As far as modern miracles? Anomolies do arise that can stun professionals that is true. But through the modern scientific process they are finding natural evidence that starts to explain why they happen.
Think of it this way: Say I believe that guy grew his leg back. Only I claim it is because of millions of years evolution and the recombing of dna; that a gene some how became active and grew it back the way a lizzards tail grows back. Wouldn't you expect me to have extrodinary evidence that is even possible?
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It's all good, welcome to the site.
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Many self-help techniques do not involve a request made to anyone or anything. For example, positive affirmations are explicitly tasked to get one's mind to a more positive state, and few practitioners making them expect any magic to come out of it - they understand that it is a purely psychological technique. That is what distinguishes them from prayer.
To my best knowledge, there has never been found a statistical difference in outcomes between prayer and other self-help techniques. People who pray to god to cure their cancer, versus people who employ CBT to prime their organism to combat cancer more efficiently, have not been demonstrated to obtain superior outcomes. As such, I agree with @Factfinder here: as per evidence we have, there is no reason to assume that prayer acts differently than other positive thinking techniques. No effect of prayer has ever been demonstrated beyond standard mobilization of organism attributed to positive expectations. No one in a controlled experiment has ever managed to obtain by praying something that is not obtainable by standard psychological techniques.
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Im not absessed about anything. Im campaigning until lousy dishonest trolling scum like you get kicked off once and for good and like others on this website I will campaign until an unwanted fart like you is gone for good. You have had plenty of chances but you just get worse.
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Religion over all claims the same thing. I worked in an old folks home and I noticed that the religious folk there were mortally scarred and thought about nothing much else of what will happen to them when they fall off the perch. If they didn't have such stup id dum ideas about praying and after life I reckon they would have enjoyed there last days a lot more. They would have true solace peace and control because they have no doubts or fears about whats going to happen to them.
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This is right and in fact there was a test done in England with 10000 people over 2 years and that was the result.
I think that prayer and mediation are both really the same thing. I mediate almost every day and maybe I wish for out comes but it lets me think clearly and then sleep on it then when I wake up I have a cleaer Idea of what to do.
For example I once mediated about a situation that involved me and 2 18 year old twin girls. And when I woke up the solution came to hand
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Just like every one on this site is praying for you to get the heck off of.
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Good question about the jews. Very contraceptive of you, i like that. I would say (because i wasnt there) that based off the data we have available now dating back to those times. I would say that the jews were more preoccupied with fear and survival rather than pausing for a moment to enter a state of prayer. Yes they prayed and just as the jews were praying, so did the germans. All of germany in its entirety actually. When i say prayer I mean it universally equal to the power of thought channeled through the mind. To this date technology hasnt been able to give an explanation to the amount of time it takes for prayer to manifest but if you ask me, those prayers worked because the germans lost the war and there was peace once again in europe.
I can also suggest North Korea as another example. The NK leader has its people so fooled to believe he is the closest thing to a god that each morning millions of North Koreans wake up and pray to this guy every day. I believe this is one reason why NK has remained in power beyond reasoning since theyve been hit with sanctions and restrictions worldwide. Today North Korea is facing a real problem because its citizens are slowly realizing the truth. Once North Koreans lose this belief on its leader i can almost assure the collapse of the NK regime.
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