Does Praying Work?

Joeseph

@TenohtlictlRodriguezLozano

Good question about the jews. Very contraceptive of you,

What does that even mean?

i like that

Like what exactly?

. I would say (because i wasnt there) that based off the data we have available now dating back to those times

Data for what exactly?

. I would say that the jews were more preoccupied with fear and survival rather than pausing for a moment to enter a state of prayer.

So a state of prayer has to be entered in a particular way? What particular way? Who told you this?

Yes they prayed and just as the jews were praying, so did the germans.

So Germans and Jews prayed and the Jews were still gassed as they hadn't entered prayer in the correct way according to you right?

All of germany in its entirety actually.

You know this how? And what were they praying for?

When i say prayer I mean it universally equal to the power of thought channeled through the mind.

What are you on about?

To this date technology hasnt been able to give an explanation to the amount of time it takes for prayer to manifest but if you ask me, those prayers worked because the germans lost the war and there was peace once again in europe.

That's because Technology/ science have no data as in peer reviews from anyone as yet that prayer works.There is also zero evidence that God's exist, prayer by definition is a request to a god or deity which is answered .

So every war that's won is won through prayer because the victors entered a state of prayer in the " right way?

I can also suggest North Korea as another example. The NK leader has its people so fooled to believe he is the closest thing to a god that each morning millions of North Koreans wake up and pray to this guy every day.

The NK leader is in power because his country is a brutal dictatorship, no citizen believe he is an actual god.

I believe this is one reason why NK has remained in power beyond reasoning since theyve been hit with sanctions and restrictions worldwide. Today North Korea is facing a real problem because its citizens are slowly realizing the truth. Once North Koreans lose this belief on its leader i can almost assure the collapse of the NK regime.

How are the citizens slowly realising the truth? Who told you this?

TenohtlictlRodriguezLozano

Joeseph said:

@TenohtlictlRodriguezLozano

Good question about the jews. Very contraceptive of you,

What does that even mean?

i like that

Like what exactly?

. I would say (because i wasnt there) that based off the data we have available now dating back to those times

Data for what exactly?

. I would say that the jews were more preoccupied with fear and survival rather than pausing for a moment to enter a state of prayer.

So a state of prayer has to be entered in a particular way? What particular way? Who told you this?

Yes they prayed and just as the jews were praying, so did the germans.

So Germans and Jews prayed and the Jews were still gassed as they hadn't entered prayer in the correct way according to you right?

All of germany in its entirety actually.

You know this how? And what were they praying for?

When i say prayer I mean it universally equal to the power of thought channeled through the mind.

What are you on about?

To this date technology hasnt been able to give an explanation to the amount of time it takes for prayer to manifest but if you ask me, those prayers worked because the germans lost the war and there was peace once again in europe.

That's because Technology/ science have no data as in peer reviews from anyone as yet that prayer works.There is also zero evidence that God's exist, prayer by definition is a request to a god or deity which is answered .

So every war that's won is won through prayer because the victors entered a state of prayer in the " right way?

I can also suggest North Korea as another example. The NK leader has its people so fooled to believe he is the closest thing to a god that each morning millions of North Koreans wake up and pray to this guy every day.

The NK leader is in power because his country is a brutal dictatorship, no citizen believe he is an actual god.

I believe this is one reason why NK has remained in power beyond reasoning since theyve been hit with sanctions and restrictions worldwide. Today North Korea is facing a real problem because its citizens are slowly realizing the truth. Once North Koreans lose this belief on its leader i can almost assure the collapse of the NK regime.

How are the citizens slowly realising the truth? Who told you this?

This old technique where you try real hard to pretend not to know, yet you know but choose to play dumb is actually funny and entertaining to read. Its as if you are trying to put up a show infront of everybody. That you can debate anybody by asking obvious questions. Like, "hey we all write replies online right". but "how do you know everyone is not typing and using a pencil".

But go ahead its enticing to read how people still try this approach. You do know that prayer is not even recognized as a scientific thing right. And that prayer when discussed such as here is not correlating to any science other than the natural human born instinct to be naturally aware of what we are capable of. And that by you deciding to play dumb over disproving prayer to be real only makes you look dumb. There is no science for prayer yet here you are arguing to disprove something that does not exist. Nice try.

TenohtlictlRodriguezLozano

"That's because Technology/ science have no data as in peer reviews from anyone as yet that prayer works.There is also zero evidence that God's exist, prayer by definition is a request to a god or deity which is answered .

So every war that's won is won through prayer because the victors entered a state of prayer in the " right way?"

Yes. And you will also find yourself praying one day when you wish your internet is cut off and u loose online access to the world. Youre gona wish ur ex gf doesnt show all ur friends ur blow up doll too. While youre wishing ask urself to whom?

just_sayin

Factfinder said:

Thank you@just_sayin.

The problem is it's an extrodinary claim lacking extrodinary evidence. What tools were at their disposal to say, preserve the old leg? What took a year and a 1000 pages for 24 people including the mother to say "he didn't have a leg then he did"? And science has changed tremendously since then. Now days science falsifies claims before they're accepted as opposed to accepting something on faith and trying prove to others what they discovered. There is the fact that the Catholic is very cautious about protecting secrets as well. As far as modern miracles? Anomolies do arise that can stun professionals that is true. But through the modern scientific process they are finding natural evidence that starts to explain why they happen.

Think of it this way: Say I believe that guy grew his leg back. Only I claim it is because of millions of years evolution and the recombing of dna; that a gene some how became active and grew it back the way a lizzards tail grows back. Wouldn't you expect me to have extrodinary evidence that is even possible?

I agree extraordinary evidence is needed for extraordinary claims. I think extraordinary evidence has been provided. 1) The medical doctors who amputated the guy's leg testified that they amputated it. You asked about the leg - it was buried in the graveyard as the custom was. The doctor's testified to cauterizing the right amputated leg. 2) Witnesses testified to having seen and interacted with the guy for 2 1/2 years while he only had his left leg. They said he worked in the fields and moved about with only one leg. 3) His parents testified to him going to bed with only one leg and then waking him up the next morning with both legs. 4) Doctors testified to the fact he then had both functioning legs. His right leg was initially weak and needed some days to get stronger - they documented this also.

So, you already have extraordinary evidence available. There are at least 24 witnesses who are documented concerning the event. What more evidence is needed? Could it be that you are moving the goal posts at this point, because you don't believe the supernatural is possible? That's certainly the case with @MayCasesar. He believes science has the answer even when science says it doesn't have the answer and that its not possible. I admire his faith. I just don't have enough faith though to be an atheist. Instead, I see all the facts in this case and the due diligence to ensure that it isn't a fake or made up story, and I see the numerous witnesses and I have to conclude that the event took place.

Joeseph

@TenohtlictlRodriguezLozano

This old technique where you try real hard to pretend not to know, yet you know but choose to play dumb is actually funny and entertaining to read. Its as if you are trying to put up a show infront of everybody. That you can debate anybody by asking obvious questions. Like, "hey we all write replies online right". but "how do you know everyone is not typing and using a pencil".

This is actually the part where you being an try to make excuses for you obvios st-pidity deflecting and dodging the questions I actually asked.

But go ahead its enticing to read how people still try this approach. You do know that prayer is not even recognized as a scientific thing right. And that prayer when discussed such as here is not correlating to any science other than the natural human born instinct to be naturally aware of what we are capable of. And that by you deciding to play dumb over disproving prayer to be real only makes you look dumb

I don't think you even know what you're saying as you're a cretin , you wrote a post babbling on about prayer and now you're trying to deflect because you cannot back your nonsense up.

.

. There is no science for prayer yet here you are arguing to disprove something that does not exist. Nice try.

I know there's no science for prayer you cretin you were the whacko who claimed ......When i say prayer I mean it universally equal to the power of thought channeled through the mind.......

You also talked about entering prayer in the right state........you're that much of an id-ot you cannot even recall what you said , is your st-pidity genetic?

Joeseph

@TenohtlictlRodriguezLozano

Yes

Yes what you troll?

. And you will also find yourself praying one day when you wish your internet is cut off and u loose online access to the world.

Will I indeed are you praying for that?

Youre gona wish ur ex gf doesnt show all ur friends ur blow up doll too

What a "fabulous " insult , only a cretin like you could come up with something so hilariously bad

. While youre wishing ask urself to whom?

Don't stress prayer man in future I will be calling on your mum to open wide while I empty into her ever willing mouth , you can watch if you want........you want to watch don't ya.

TenohtlictlRodriguezLozano

Joeseph said:

@TenohtlictlRodriguezLozano

This is actually the part where you being an try to make excuses for you obvios st-pidity deflecting and dodging the questions I actually asked.

Please explain the science behind deflecting and dodging questions. How does that work?

I don't think you even know what you're saying as you're a cretin , you wrote a post babbling on about prayer and now you're trying to deflect because you cannot back your nonsense up.

what nonsense?

You also talked about entering prayer in the right state........you're that much of an id-ot you cannot even recall what you said , is your st-pidity genetic?

So theres a right way to enter prayer?

See how it is to ask questions like you. Step aside euro maybe if you werent such a wonderful bundle of joy we'd save your country from being conquered. Just because you can read and write doesnt mean that makes you better than anybody. If youre going to be open to debate have a little respect and carry yourself professionally rather than going around like the knowitall looking like peewee herman.

Joeseph

@TenohtlictlRodriguezLozano

See how it is to ask questions like you.

That's what you do in debate not run and dodge like you.

Step aside euro maybe if you werent such a wonderful bundle of joy we'd save your country from being conquered

Oh wait , the US who got whipped by emaciated Vietnamese rice farmers are going to save us .....ROFLMAO

. Just because you can read and write doesnt mean that makes you better than anybody

Well because you cannot defend your nonsense certainly makes you inferior, remember your place in future boy.

. If youre going to be open to debate have a little respect and carry yourself professionally rather than going around like the knowitall looking like peewee herman.

I don't respect a coward like you who flys into a sulk because he cannot answer a few pretty simple questions.

It's pretty tragic you deem any challenges to your childish rants as being threatening maybe that's something you can work on tough guy?

TenohtlictlRodriguezLozano

Alright your 5 minutes of fame are up circus boy. Back to the topic.

Joeseph

@TenohtlictlRodriguezLozano

You mean the topic you made a fool.of yourself on?

That what I wanted to debate until you got all b-tt hurt over being asked a few questions.

So you got your 5 minutes of acting the village id-ot do you want to attempt to defend your assertions or do you want to carry on acting the clown?

just_sayin

When people say factually inaccurate things like 'there is no evidence that prayer works', I feel compelled to repeat myself.

1) As I mentioned before - the majority of the evidence says prayer work. Again, here is the quote:

There were 90 identified studies of which 45 had been conducted in clinical settings and 45 in laboratory settings. they reported that 71% of the clinical studies and 62% of the laboratory studies reported positive outcomes; and that the overall internal validity for the studies on distance healing was 75% for the clinical investigations and 81% for the laboratory investigations. So the bulk of studies shows prayer works.

Marilyn Schlitz, Ph.D., and lecturer at Harvard, says, “It's clear from the correlational studies within the epidemiology data that positive relationships exist between religious and spiritual practice and health outcomes on a variety of different conditions.” Moreover, she says that in a study and confirmation study on intercessory prayer, “the prayer groups had statistically significant improvements in outcome, suggesting that the intervention has clinical relevance.” - Fox News

In the recent National Center of Complementary and Alternative Medicine (NCCAM) survey study I mentioned, a significantly high percentage of the population makes use of prayer for other people. Many people believe that if I pray for you, you will become better, or if you pray for me I'll become better, and yet we know very little of the mechanism to explain how this might happen. So this is a frontier area for research. To date, more than 180 studies have been done in this area, with more than half of them producing significant results. In these experiments, one person through their intention tries to influence the physiology or the physical condition of a target system, such as cell cultures, animal models, and there are human studies. As of March 2004, there have been nine controlled clinical trials looking at intercessory prayer (compassionate intention at a distance). Six of these have produced statistically significant positive results. For a complete list of these studies, one can visit the distant healing research site at the Institute of Noetic Sciences Web site (www.noetic.org). - Marilyn Schlitz, Meditation, Prayer and Spiritual Healing: The Evidence

2) lots of studies have shown that prayer works, for example:

From

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/12776468/'

A systematic review of the quality of research on hands-on and distance healing: clinical and laboratory studies

Results: A total of 45 laboratory and 45 clinical studies published between 1956 and 2001 met the inclusion criteria. Of the clinical studies, 31 (70.5%) reported positive outcomes as did 28 (62%) of the laboratory studies; 4 (9%) of the clinical studies reported negative outcomes as did 15 (33%) of the laboratory studies. The mean percent overall internal validity for clinical studies was 69% (65% for hands-on healing and 75% for distance healing) and for laboratory studies 82% (82% for hands-on healing and 81% for distance healing).

90 studies from reputable journals have shown that prayer works.

3) Medical training believes prayer works as it has been incorporated into training for doctors:

See Fox News:

Researchers at the Heritage Foundation said, “We have a logical reason why religion might influence physical health through mental health, through enhancing social support, through influencing health behaviors, all affecting physical health outcomes.” So, at the very least, prayer is beneficial. It works. In fact, “Today, 101 medical schools incorporate patient spirituality in their curriculum, up from 17 in 1995. This fact suggests that these principles are being incorporated into medical education…”

4) More studies that show prayer works:

From Pub Med:

Effects of intercessory prayer on patients with rheumatoid arthritis

Results: Patients receiving in-person intercessory prayer showed significant overall improvement during 1-year follow-up. ..
Conclusions: In-person intercessory prayer may be a useful adjunct to standard medical care for certain patients with rheumatoid arthritis.

From Sage Journals:

A Randomized Trial of the Effect of Prayer on Depression and Anxiety

Results:

At the completion of the trial, participants receiving the prayer intervention showed significant improvement of depression and anxiety, as well as increases of daily spiritual experiences and optimism compared to controls (p < 0.01 in all cases). Subjects in the prayer group maintained these significant improvements (p < 0.01 in all cases) for a duration of at least 1 month after the final prayer session. Participants in the control group did not show significant changes during the study. Cortisol levels did not differ significantly between intervention and control groups, or between pre- and post-prayer conditions.

Conclusions:

Direct contact person-to-person prayer may be useful as an adjunct to standard medical care for patients with depression and anxiety. Further research in this area is indicated.

The Effect of Prayer on Depression and Anxiety: Maintenance of Positive Influence One Year after Prayer Intervention

Results:

Evaluations post-prayer at 1 month and 1 year showed significantly less depression and anxiety, more optimism, and greater levels of spiritual experience than did the baseline (pre-prayer) measures (p < 0.01 in all cases).

Conclusions:

Subjects maintained significant improvements for a duration of at least 1 year after the final prayer session. Direct person-to-person prayer may be useful as an adjunct to standard medical care for patients with depression and anxiety. Further research in this area is indicated.

From JAMA

A Randomized, Controlled Trial of the Effects of Remote, Intercessory Prayer on Outcomes in Patients Admitted to the Coronary Care Unit

Results Compared with the usual care group (n=524), the prayer group (n=466) had lower mean±SEM weighted (6.35±0.26 vs 7.13±0.27; P=.04) and unweighted (2.7±0.1 vs 3.0±0.1; P=.04) CCU course scores. Lengths of CCU and hospital stays were not different.

Conclusions Remote, intercessory prayer was associated with lower CCU course scores. This result suggests that prayer may be an effective adjunct to standard medical care.

Effects of intercessory prayer on patients with rheumatoid arthritis

Results: Patients receiving in-person intercessory prayer showed significant overall improvement during 1-year follow-up. ..
Conclusions: In-person intercessory prayer may be a useful adjunct to standard medical care for certain patients with rheumatoid arthritis.

The Effect of Prayer on Depression and Anxiety: Maintenance of Positive Influence One Year after Prayer Intervention

Results:

Evaluations post-prayer at 1 month and 1 year showed significantly less depression and anxiety, more optimism, and greater levels of spiritual experience than did the baseline (pre-prayer) measures (p < 0.01 in all cases).

Conclusions:

Subjects maintained significant improvements for a duration of at least 1 year after the final prayer session. Direct person-to-person prayer may be useful as an adjunct to standard medical care for patients with depression and anxiety. Further research in this area is indicated.

From JAMA website

A Randomized, Controlled Trial of the Effects of Remote, Intercessory Prayer on Outcomes in Patients Admitted to the Coronary Care Unit

Results Compared with the usual care group (n=524), the prayer group (n=466) had lower mean±SEM weighted (6.35±0.26 vs 7.13±0.27; P=.04) and unweighted (2.7±0.1 vs 3.0±0.1; P=.04) CCU course scores. Lengths of CCU and hospital stays were not different.

Conclusions Remote, intercessory prayer was associated with lower CCU course scores. This result suggests that prayer may be an effective adjunct to standard medical care.

I referenced a few summary of prayer studies that showed that most prayer studies concluded that prayer works:

Such as:

A SYSTEMATIC REVIEW OF THE QUALITY OF RESEARCH ON HANDS-ON AND DISTANCE HEALING: CLINICAL AND LABORATORY STUDIES,

which examined the quality of studies of hands-on healing and distance healing that were published between 1955 and 2001. There were 90 identified studies of which 45 had been conducted in clinical settings and 45 in laboratory settings. they reported that 71% of the clinical studies and 62% of the laboratory studies reported positive outcomes; and that the overall internal validity for the studies on distance healing was 75% for the clinical investigations and 81% for the laboratory investigations. So the bulk of studies shows prayer works.

in a systematic review of distance prayer

The Efficacy of “Distant Healing A Systematic Review of Randomized Trials

" Of these studies, 13 (57%) yielded statistically significant treatment effects favoring distant healing, nine showed no superiority of distant healing over control interventions and one showed a negative effect for distant healing. "

There are over 1200 studies on the effectiveness of prayer with the vast majority showing that prayer had statistically significant health results for the person being prayed for.

MayCaesar

just_sayin said:

So, you already have extraordinary evidence available. There are at least 24 witnesses who are documented concerning the event. What more evidence is needed? Could it be that you are moving the goal posts at this point, because you don't believe the supernatural is possible? That's certainly the case with @MayCasesar. He believes science has the answer even when science says it doesn't have the answer and that its not possible. I admire his faith. I just don't have enough faith though to be an atheist. Instead, I see all the facts in this case and the due diligence to ensure that it isn't a fake or made up story, and I see the numerous witnesses and I have to conclude that the event took place.

Small correction: @MayCaesar does not hold this belief, as he explained to @just_sayin on numerous occasions. @just_saying is a habitual and slanderer, so please do not take his descriptions of other people's views seriously.

Barnardot

@just_sayin ;There are over 1200 studies on the effectiveness of prayer with the vast majority showing that prayer had statistically significant health results for the person being prayed for.

And every one of those is a total scam and every one is getting sick and tyred of your persistant littering scam sites. 1 out of 3 lieing dishonest trolls has all ready been kicked off this site and there are 2 to go. And one of them is you.

Factfinder

I disagree @just_sayin. You have presented an extrodinary claim that was first reported some 400 years ago. Before and after "witnesses" do not rise to a level extrodinary. Not even mom. Especially during a time when there was still plenty of people around who believed the wind was spirits and valcanoes were angry gods. Even centuries later these types of "investigations" routinely ended up with young pretty women having their tongues cut out and burned at the stake for being witches. But of course their tongues were cut out so they could'nt tell anyone of the repeated rape sessions during the "interrogations". Point being people were far more gullible then. And the church was far from being open, honest and transparent.

Also I get the sense you're calling people "medical doctors" who lived centuries before that was a common term; as if you're applying a modern professional mindset to ancient practioners. Your belief in it doesn't matter. There's just no real evidence, not to mention extrodinary. Goal posts firmly in place.

JulesKorngold

@just_sayin
Could you elaborate on why praying didn't work during the Black Death plague that killed up to 200 million people? Diverse forms of public and private prayer were common during those years.

Joeseph

@Barnardot

1 out of 3 lieing dishonest trolls has all ready been kicked off this site and there are 2 to go. And one of them is you.

You're a terrible angry little fellow , try praying to calm your escalating temper tantrums you never know it might bring you peace.

What has you so annoyed? Wait you bought more rubbish from Temu ......am I right?

just_sayin

Factfinder said:

I disagree @just_sayin. You have presented an extrodinary claim that was first reported some 400 years ago. Before and after "witnesses" do not rise to a level extrodinary. Not even mom. Especially during a time when there was still plenty of people around who believed the wind was spirits and valcanoes were angry gods. Even centuries later these types of "investigations" routinely ended up with young pretty women having their tongues cut out and burned at the stake for being witches. But of course their tongues were cut out so they could'nt tell anyone of the repeated rape sessions during the "interrogations". Point being people were far more gullible then. And the church was far from being open, honest and transparent.

Also I get the sense you're calling people "medical doctors" who lived centuries before that was a common term; as if you're applying a modern professional mindset to ancient practioners. Your belief in it doesn't matter. There's just no real evidence, not to mention extrodinary. Goal posts firmly in place.

I would say that witnesses who confirm that the guy had a right leg, then didn't have one, and then had one again 2 1/2 years later is extraordinary evidence. You seem to be moving the goal posts. Just how many witnesses are need? Just how many feet need to grow back?

You have dismissed the investigation out of hand. But there are very detailed notes, and lots of eye witness testimony. You seem to think that people 400 years ago were unable to determine if someone had 2 legs or 1. I think this is speculation on your part - while the testimony of the 24 witnesses is based on their actual experiences. You seem to think people just pretended it was a miracle. That was the not the case. The tribunal took a year. The Catholic church would much rather not label something as a miracle than to do so and then it be discovered that it wasn't. Just what evidence is needed to prove a miracle in you view? Apparently it isn't eye witness and expert witness testimony, such as the doctors who cut off the leg and testified to it being grown back.

Factfinder

just_sayin said:

Factfinder said:

I disagree @just_sayin. You have presented an extrodinary claim that was first reported some 400 years ago. Before and after "witnesses" do not rise to a level extrodinary. Not even mom. Especially during a time when there was still plenty of people around who believed the wind was spirits and valcanoes were angry gods. Even centuries later these types of "investigations" routinely ended up with young pretty women having their tongues cut out and burned at the stake for being witches. But of course their tongues were cut out so they could'nt tell anyone of the repeated rape sessions during the "interrogations". Point being people were far more gullible then. And the church was far from being open, honest and transparent.

Also I get the sense you're calling people "medical doctors" who lived centuries before that was a common term; as if you're applying a modern professional mindset to ancient practioners. Your belief in it doesn't matter. There's just no real evidence, not to mention extrodinary. Goal posts firmly in place.

I would say that witnesses who confirm that the guy had a right leg, then didn't have one, and then had one again 2 1/2 years later is extraordinary evidence. You seem to be moving the goal posts. Just how many witnesses are need? Just how many feet need to grow back?

You have dismissed the investigation out of hand. But there are very detailed notes, and lots of eye witness testimony. You seem to think that people 400 years ago were unable to determine if someone had 2 legs or 1. I think this is speculation on your part - while the testimony of the 24 witnesses is based on their actual experiences. You seem to think people just pretended it was a miracle. That was the not the case. The tribunal took a year. The Catholic church would much rather not label something as a miracle than to do so and then it be discovered that it wasn't. Just what evidence is needed to prove a miracle in you view? Apparently it isn't eye witness and expert witness testimony, such as the doctors who cut off the leg and testified to it being grown back.

Your argumentation appears to be based on a desire to believe. And that's fine if that works for you. Witness accounts are meaningless without a body of evidence for support. I could tell you I flew like a bird just using my mind to transport myself from one end of a football field to another and these 20 people saw me. But no one thought to record it yet they maintain that I did it. I can't do it again because it took too much energy out of me and now I can't fly. Would you believe me? Would people 100 years from now believe it if they stumbled across my extraordinary claim?

JulesKorngold

Argument Topic: The Black Death...

@just_sayin
Lots of prayers. 200 million dead. Explain please.

just_sayin

JulesKorngold said:

@just_sayin
Lots of prayers. 200 million dead. Explain please.

I'm always happy to answer questions and always happy to repeat answers too. I don't expect you to read every post or even remember all of your own posts. For the record. I have talked about this in these posts previously:

https://debateisland.com/discussion/comment/168641/#Comment_168641 (reasons God doesn't answer prayer)

https://debateisland.com/discussion/comment/171226/#Comment_171226

After answering your question there you got philosophical and asked 'what is an answered prayer' see
https://debateisland.com/discussion/comment/171229/#Comment_171229

I graciously answered your question - even commented on A and B theory of time, and provided you with extensively documented evidence of the miracle healing of Barbara Commiskey: see here:

https://debateisland.com/discussion/comment/171231/#Comment_171231

A mistake that many make is that they believe God is like a Coke machine and all you have to do is put in the right amount and push the right buttons and you will get what you want. God is not your tool. God as I understand him is a personal being and isn't manipulated by such methods. Many can relate to the words of Jelly Roll - 'I only talk to God when I need a favor, and God I need a favor'.

Throughout the book of Job, Job tries to understand why God has allowed his family and all that he owns to be harmed. Do you know what reason God gave him? Answer - he didn't. He never explained it. I can not tell you I can always explain why things happen the way they do. I freely admit I do not understand. That however does not negate the fact that some prayers get answered and that miracles occur. As I pointed out when you asked the question before. Just because God did not answer some prayers, it does not logically follow that He didn't answer some.. When you asked the same question I am answering now, I referenced Barbara Commiskey's miracle (see here https://debateisland.com/discussion/comment/171231/#Comment_171231). If nature has the answer, then what is it?

it's gotten comical. Barnadot said he would believe in miracles if I showed evidence of someone having their limb grow back. And I did that. Then Dee claimed there was no video of a miracle. And I provided the video of Delia Knox. Dee ran so fast (see pic below) it it upset him so bad he later went on to falsely accuse an old white ophthalmologist who had pioneered techniques and had led some of the most distinguished people in his field of being a bald black bishop who was out for money. He even said he had proof that the guy was not an Ivy league doctor because he found a bad yelp review from one guy who was upset that the doctor did not accept his coupon (I am not making this up). See Dee's post here - https://debateisland.com/discussion/comment/167366/#Comment_167366
https://debateisland.com/discussion/comment/167444/#Comment_167444

My laughing at Dee here:
https://debateisland.com/discussion/comment/167451/#Comment_167451

See Dee run

See Dee run real fast

I have and will gladly continue to provide medical documentation, video, doctor's testimony, tv reports, newspaper articles, peer reviewed reports, pew research studies, etc to show that God answers prayer. If you want to really undermine my argument - then demonstrate that Barbara Commiskey's miracle wasn't a miracle as 4 of her Mayo Clinic trained doctor's claim it was. just sayin

Joeseph

@just_sayin

Wow! Dee really got to you he's gone 2 weeks and you're still yammering on about him.

Poor ole just lyin is so confused a Doctor he said didn't exist then existed and changed colour .... its a miracle ......ROFLMAO Also just Lying cannot produce X rays from the con woman knoxx or signed medical reports.

Remember how you fled on the morality debate , the free will debate, the biblical slavery debate .....try praying your god may heal the wounds ......save you licking them ROFLMAO

Barnardot

@Joeseph ;Wait you bought more rubbish from Temu ......am I right?

Well this is right. I dont have those old fashioned credit cards so I bought an electronic virtual card wallet. And when I opened the package there was nothing in it. Like what the.

JulesKorngold

Argument Topic: What Counts More?

@just_sayin
Tell us why one answered prayer (Barbara Commiskey) proves prayers work while 200 million (the Black Death) unanswered prayers prove nothing.

Joeseph

@Barnardot

Well you are a bit of a cheap skate so you get what you pay for.

just_sayin

JulesKorngold said:

@just_sayin
Tell us why one answered prayer (Barbara Commiskey) proves prayers work while 200 million (the Black Death) unanswered prayers prove nothing.

That's an easy question. If there is evidence of an answered prayer then the answer to the debate is yes prayer works. It may not work every time, but there is evidence that it does work. For the record, and I'm sure I've mentioned this before, most people who pray say their prayers have been answered:

According to a Radiant Foundation study of 1100 people:

87% of Americans who pray say their prayers were answered in the last year: study

Image: https://debateisland.com/uploads/editor/1t/j795g3pgg9w3.png

So, my advice is to try it for yourself.

JulesKorngold

Argument Topic: I'm Praying

@just_sayin
I'm praying that you see the flaws in your position and realize your "miracle" was just a coincidence and your "87%" was a biased sample.

I doubt my prayer will be answered.

Try praying that you will change my mind...

Openminded

@just_sayin

As Jane Goodall said .... (not verbatim) There is a difference between Hope vs. Faith. For those who rely on faith and prayer - they see a problem, feel a problem and pray - give that problem over to God to fix.

For those who have Hope, they see a problem, feel a problem, and know that THEY have to do the work to fix the problem with hope.

Perhaps that explains the majority of Trump Supporters who are extreme evangelicals. They see the problems of America, feel the problems of America, and give them over to Trump with faith that their savior can fix everything.

Perhaps this explains the non Trump Supporters. We see the problems of America, feel the problems of America, and have HOPE and know that we need to help fix those problems by helping others.

just_sayin

JulesKorngold said:

@just_sayin
I'm praying that you see the flaws in your position and realize your "miracle" was just a coincidence and your "87%" was a biased sample.

I doubt my prayer will be answered.

Try praying that you will change my mind...

Jules,

Which miracle are we talking about? It would be hard for me to think it a coincidence if a guy had his right leg amputated, and then 2 1/2 years later his leg reappeared attacked and working. That seems more than a coincidence. Are we talking about Barbara Commiskey's miracle where she was unable to move her arms and legs, was blind, and many of her major organs were failing. She had been sent home to die and was expected to die within days, but after being prayed for heard God's voice, she got up - miracle 1, and then realized she could see - miracle 2, then went to the doctor who confirmed that her collapsed lung was now working - miracle 3, and her intestines were now working and she had to have a surgery to remove the colostomy bag, miracle 4, and her other organs were now working fine, miracles 5+. No less than 4 of her doctors, with Mayo clinic experience, wrote about her case and called it a 'miracle' in various medical journals and books. It was quite a 'coincidence' that the lame walked, the blind saw, and the near dead were miraculously healed all at the same moment after a prayer. What's not rationale though - is there is no medical explanation available. A fact many doctors attest too.

I agree with you - you don't have a prayer of winning this debate. The evidence is too overwhelming against your position. But I still encourage you to pray - it has lots of medical benefits - as I've pointed out already.

Barnardot

@just_sayin ;So, my advice is to try it for yourself.

And every one elses advice to you contains a heap of fs and want you to stop your constant littering this site with your total bogus links.

just_sayin

Barnardot said:

@just_sayin ;So, my advice is to try it for yourself.
And every one elses advice to you contains a heap of fs and want you to stop your constant littering this site with your total bogus links.

Yet again today I'll have to call you out for spreading lies. You already falsely claimed a study I mentioned, in another thread, had the exact opposite meaning it actually had. You sought to deceive. The links I post are not 'bogus'. You may not like them. They may come to different conclusions than you like, but they are not 'bogus'. A pattern of yours is when confronted with information that disproves your argument, you lie and say that it is 'fake'. If you don't like my evidence, then argue against it. Calling it 'fake' or 'bogus' is dishonest and lazy debating.

In this debate alone I have provided over a hundred different sources - news stories, peer reviewed medical journals, tv clips, interviews, medical journal articles, Pew study results, eye witness testimony, medical records, and even video of a miracle captured at the moment of the event. You lied and said the Chicago Tribune news story was 'fake'. You lied and said that I made up the peer reviewed medical journals. You lied and said the Pew study was made up. You are the one with a lie-ing problem. Maybe you should pray about it and ask God to help you be more honest. just sayin

If you are going to behave like Dee, then maybe you should be vanquished like Dee

See Dee run away defeated and vanquished

Image: https://debateisland.com/uploads/editor/5x/a8itruizetxl.gif

Factfinder

@just_sayin

Gish Gallop

Joeseph

See Dee run away defeated and vanquished @just_sayin @just_sayin

WOW ! Just lying obsession with Dee Continues

You mean the way just Lying ran away from the slavery debate , the freewill debate and the morality all after he got trounced on his miracle claims

Barnardot

@just_sayin ;The links I post are not 'bogus You already falsely claimed a study I mentioned

I named specific links which I pointed out quiet rightly why they were bogus didnt I?

Now once again stop your deliberate misquoting and dishonesty.

Now do you you want me to make a generalization that just so happens to be accurate?

All other members on this site have complained about your dishonesty and lieing. Not specific members but all members.

just_sayin

Barnardot said:

@just_sayin ;The links I post are not 'bogus You already falsely claimed a study I mentioned
I named specific links which I pointed out quiet rightly why they were bogus didnt I?

Now once again stop your deliberate misquoting and dishonesty.

Now do you you want me to make a generalization that just so happens to be accurate?

All other members on this site have complained about your dishonesty and lieing. Not specific members but all members.

You falsely said that I fabricated the Chicago Tribune, September 26, 1983 article (see below) (I highlighted the quotes below where the doctors called Barbara Commiskey's healing a miracle.

I pointed out you that you could go to newspapers.com and pull up the article for yourself with the information I had provided. Yet you continued to falsely assert that I had photoshopped or made up the article. If you disagree with the article just say that, but when you falsely accuse me of fabricating evidence, know I will correct you.

Factfinder

@just_sayin

Ok maybe I deserved the "fallacy" vote for my snarky response "gish gallop". But on the whole growing a leg back thing every time I challenged you to explain on your own why you think 24 guys sayin, "yeah he didn't have a leg but now he does" is extraordinary evidence of supernatural intervention; all you could do is appeal to authority. WHY DO YOU BELIEVE IT?

JulesKorngold

@just_sayin
Where does it say Cummiskey prayed?

just_sayin

Factfinder said:

@just_sayin

Ok maybe I deserved the "fallacy" vote for my snarky response "gish gallop". But on the whole growing a leg back thing every time I challenged you to explain on your own why you think 24 guys sayin, "yeah he didn't have a leg but now he does" is extraordinary evidence of supernatural intervention; all you could do is appeal to authority. WHY DO YOU BELIEVE IT?

Appeal to authority? I appealed to the evidence. Do you have any witness testimony that says this was a fake? Maybe a neighbor, or even an enemy of the man's who said that the account was untrue? No, you don't, because every witness interviewed corroborated the account. Now understand the setting - this wasn't some story passed around in a bar with people claiming that they had heard that story, this was a year long tribunal investigation presided by the archbishop, and involved the king. Witnesses gave their testimony as if it were a court case and were cross examined. The doctors who testified to amputating the leg provided detailed records of the surgery, the burying of the leg, and the man's recovery. The doctors who testified that they had seen the man shortly after his leg reappeared testified to its condition and provided medical records as it grew strong over the next several days and weeks. There were many testimonies from people who saw him during the 2 1/2 years he did not have his right leg, after it was amputated.

In fairness, I would say you have made an appeal to authority - your belief that science holds all the answers. I have appealed to the evidence, you have appealed to authority. I don't know if you are a believer in scientism to the extent of @MayCaesar, but I just don't have that kind of faith to ignore facts like him. If it walks like a duck, and has 2 feet like a duck, where it only had one foot before, then it is a duck on 2 feet now. Believers in scientism would deny factual information to maintain their belief in science and avoid the dissonance that reality differs from their faith.. Now to people who treat science like its a religion, and deny the supernatural, they will claim that it does not walk like a duck, even when they can see for themselves the duck is walking with both legs where it only had one leg before.

Why would you say that many eye witness testimonies, some from well known medical professionals of their day is no extraordinary evidence? Just what would be extraordinary evidence in this case? I made the observation that you moved the goal posts before. Where will you carry them now? If you have eye witness testimony or evidence that the event did not occur as 24 witnesses testified it did. Now is your turn to stop appealing to authority, and produce your factual evidence. I'll wait.

just_sayin

JulesKorngold said:

@just_sayin
Where does it say Cummiskey prayed?

The Chicago Tribune article did not interview her. The Christian radio station confirmed that they had prayed for her and presented her with the prayer requests - that's when she got up. Also, her two friends, Joyce Jugan and Angela Crawford, who brought her the written prayers, and her nursing assistant immediately following her healing, also say that Commiskey said she had heard God's voice. One of her doctor's shared in his book her story about her hearing God's voice. The story of people praying for her healing by the radio station and her hearing God's voice was shared the following evening of the event at her local church. Here are some sources for you:

You can read Barbara Cummiskey's own account in her own words at http://nebula.wsimg.com/26f08202c2c1c87f2521b6bf967dcdaf?AccessKeyId=B72A5E64E6835B2F4367&disposition=0&alloworigin=1 pages 62-64.

You can read about her testimony for yourself. Here are just two books available on Amazon:

The Case for Miracles: A Journalist Investigates Evidence for the Supernatural

and

Miracles Today

In Miracles Today, her story is told in the introduction, so you won't have to read far. The footnotes will point you to other sources corroborating her account.

You can read her story in Christianity Today, Dec. 16, 1983:

One Who Took up Her Bed and Walked

You can watch her story on youtube:

If you would rather listen to a podcast, then you can listen here:

https://podtail.com/en/podcast/life-money-and-hope-with-chris-brown/episode-46-miracles-still-happen/

Her story was also featured on the ABC show That's Incredible - if you can find an episode you can watch it there.

Here is Biola University discussing Barbara Cummiskey's miracle:

There are at least 4 doctor's on record about her miracle

Dr. Harold Adolph - her surgeon

Dr Thomas Marshall - internal organ doctor

Dr. Donal Edwards

Dr Scott Kolbaba

This is from Thomas Marshall's account immediately after the miracle:

"The next day was a Monday, and Barb called our office for an appointment. My nurse didn’t know what to say when she called. But the greatest surprise was when I saw her in the hallway of our office, walking toward me. I thought I was seeing an apparition! Here was my patient, who was not expected to live another week, totally cured.

I stopped all of her medication and took out her bladder catheter, but she wasn’t quite ready to have the tracheostomy tube removed until another visit. No one had ever seen anything like this before. That afternoon, we sent Barb for a chest X-ray. Her lungs were now perfectly normal, with the collapsed lung totally expanded with no infiltrate or other abnormality that had existed before.

I have never witnessed anything like this before or since and considered it a rare privilege to observe the Hand of God performing a true miracle. Barb has gone on to live a normal life in every way. She subsequently married a minister and feel..

Barnardot

@just_sayin @Factfinder ;You falsely said that I fabricated the Chicago Tribune, September 26, 1983 article (see below)

I said the article you posted is made up by spammers and posted on a spam bogus website. No such article was ever published in that newspaper. And even then so what. The article is 100% hearsay and actually reports and confirms nothing.

Now once again. Every one is sick and tyred of your devious and dishonest ways of squirming a round what was said and misinterpreting.

Your getting worse and worse and your totally off the planet. Are you trying to get a prize for being the world's greatest wa***r as well as being the worlds greatest lier?

KatiaDbate

Argument Topic: Praying doesn't work

Well No, I do not believe that praying works. There has been an argument if god exists why does he make people suffer even though if they are innocent. There are many theories on this matter, but I say there is no god because there is so much suffering in this world so therefore no point for praying. Hemanth Mehta from NYT agrees on this with me. He states ...."When it comes down to it, prayer is illogical, even in religious terms. If God has a plan, why try to thwart it? If God can be swayed by prayers, what kind of God would allow the horrors we see in the world?"..

Barnardot

@KatiaDbate ;Well No, I do not believe that praying works.

Well I will go so far as to say that not only do I believe that praying does not work but that in actual fact it does not work.

You can look at all the bizzarre trash crap that @just-sayin has continuously repeated over and over again but it is all taken from extreme sites and misquoted and there is not one single bit of evidence any where in that trash that even remotely comes near to proving such a point.

If some thing cannot be proven wit hout evidence then it can be dismissed with out evidence. Therefore there is no such thing as God and prayer does not work.

Factfinder

just_sayin said:

Factfinder said:

@just_sayin

Ok maybe I deserved the "fallacy" vote for my snarky response "gish gallop". But on the whole growing a leg back thing every time I challenged you to explain on your own why you think 24 guys sayin, "yeah he didn't have a leg but now he does" is extraordinary evidence of supernatural intervention; all you could do is appeal to authority. WHY DO YOU BELIEVE IT?

Appeal to authority? I appealed to the evidence. Do you have any witness testimony that says this was a fake? Maybe a neighbor, or even an enemy of the man's who said that the account was untrue? No, you don't, because every witness interviewed corroborated the account. Now understand the setting - this wasn't some story passed around in a bar with people claiming that they had heard that story, this was a year long tribunal investigation presided by the archbishop, and involved the king. Witnesses gave their testimony as if it were a court case and were cross examined. The doctors who testified to amputating the leg provided detailed records of the surgery, the burying of the leg, and the man's recovery. The doctors who testified that they had seen the man shortly after his leg reappeared testified to its condition and provided medical records as it grew strong over the next several days and weeks. There were many testimonies from people who saw him during the 2 1/2 years he did not have his right leg, after it was amputated.

In fairness, I would say you have made an appeal to authority - your belief that science holds all the answers. I have appealed to the evidence, you have appealed to authority. I don't know if you are a believer in scientism to the extent of @MayCaesar, but I just don't have that kind of faith to ignore facts like him. If it walks like a duck, and has 2 feet like a duck, where it only had one foot before, then it is a duck on 2 feet now. Believers in scientism would deny factual information to maintain their belief in science and avoid the dissonance that reality differs from their faith.. Now to people who treat science like its a religion, and deny the supernatural, they will claim that it does not walk like a duck, even when they can see for themselves the duck is walking with both legs where it only had one leg before.

Why would you say that many eye witness testimonies, some from well known medical professionals of their day is no extraordinary evidence? Just what would be extraordinary evidence in this case? I made the observation that you moved the goal posts before. Where will you carry them now? If you have eye witness testimony or evidence that the event did not occur as 24 witnesses testified it did. Now is your turn to stop appealing to authority, and produce your factual evidence. I'll wait.

You are not appealing to evidence, your appeal is to what you want to believe is evidence and the catholic church which deemed it as such. An appeal to authority.

But for arguments sake, let's say you're right. The guys leg was restored miraculously, old scars and all. If I were a bible believing christian that would destroy my faith completely. Do you know why? Jesus taught us to address the Father in prayers. The bible is clear, no one is worthy of worship but god and praying is an act of worship. Paul told timothy that jesus is the mediator, and paul taught the romans the holy spirit prompts us to pray and what to pray. So if this statue which the story makes so clear is where the guys faith lied cuz he prayed to it vehemently, if it answered a prayer and it did what god hasn't since christ touched an ear, my faith would be a wreck. An idol answered a prayer. The bible doesn't say pray to images and statues, or the virgin mary or anyone else, only god.

Fake amputees are one of the oldest beggar cons in the book. That is a fact. Just coincidence the guys leg wasn't in the grave, huh?

just_sayin

Factfinder said:

just_sayin said:

Factfinder said:

@just_sayin

Ok maybe I deserved the "fallacy" vote for my snarky response "gish gallop". But on the whole growing a leg back thing every time I challenged you to explain on your own why you think 24 guys sayin, "yeah he didn't have a leg but now he does" is extraordinary evidence of supernatural intervention; all you could do is appeal to authority. WHY DO YOU BELIEVE IT?

Appeal to authority? I appealed to the evidence. Do you have any witness testimony that says this was a fake? Maybe a neighbor, or even an enemy of the man's who said that the account was untrue? No, you don't, because every witness interviewed corroborated the account. Now understand the setting - this wasn't some story passed around in a bar with people claiming that they had heard that story, this was a year long tribunal investigation presided by the archbishop, and involved the king. Witnesses gave their testimony as if it were a court case and were cross examined. The doctors who testified to amputating the leg provided detailed records of the surgery, the burying of the leg, and the man's recovery. The doctors who testified that they had seen the man shortly after his leg reappeared testified to its condition and provided medical records as it grew strong over the next several days and weeks. There were many testimonies from people who saw him during the 2 1/2 years he did not have his right leg, after it was amputated.

In fairness, I would say you have made an appeal to authority - your belief that science holds all the answers. I have appealed to the evidence, you have appealed to authority. I don't know if you are a believer in scientism to the extent of @MayCaesar, but I just don't have that kind of faith to ignore facts like him. If it walks like a duck, and has 2 feet like a duck, where it only had one foot before, then it is a duck on 2 feet now. Believers in scientism would deny factual information to maintain their belief in science and avoid the dissonance that reality differs from their faith.. Now to people who treat science like its a religion, and deny the supernatural, they will claim that it does not walk like a duck, even when they can see for themselves the duck is walking with both legs where it only had one leg before.

Why would you say that many eye witness testimonies, some from well known medical professionals of their day is no extraordinary evidence? Just what would be extraordinary evidence in this case? I made the observation that you moved the goal posts before. Where will you carry them now? If you have eye witness testimony or evidence that the event did not occur as 24 witnesses testified it did. Now is your turn to stop appealing to authority, and produce your factual evidence. I'll wait.

You are not appealing to evidence, your appeal is to what you want to believe is evidence and the catholic church which deemed it as such. An appeal to authority.

But for arguments sake, let's say you're right. The guys leg was restored miraculously, old scars and all. If I were a bible believing christian that would destroy my faith completely. Do you know why? Jesus taught us to address the Father in prayers. The bible is clear, no one is worthy of worship but god and praying is an act of worship. Paul told timothy that jesus is the mediator, and paul taught the romans the holy spirit prompts us to pray and what to pray. So if this statue which the story makes so clear is where the guys faith lied cuz he prayed to it vehemently, if it answered a prayer and it did what god hasn't since christ touched an ear, my faith would be a wreck. An idol answered a prayer. The bible doesn't say pray to images and statues, or the virgin mary or anyone else, only god.

Fake amputees are one of the oldest beggar cons in the book. That is a fact. Just coincidence the guys leg wasn't in the grave, huh?

I'm not Catholic, so I have no sacred view of that denominations authority. There are about 1000 pages of testimony from the event. That's evidence.

You claim it was a hoax, because the boy begged alms, but part of his thing was showing off the scares of the amputation:

The boy was recognized by all, and had been operated on by the most famous surgeon of Zaragoza, Professor Estanga, assisted by two excellent doctors and three nurses: there was also a priest, administrator of the hospital. Everyone testified at the trial, also talking about the place where the cut leg was buried, according to custom. Those who gave him alms recalled that not only did Miguel Juan not hide his leg, but that he showed the stump with the healed wound to exhort alms.

The leg no longer being in the grave fits with the fact that the leg did not regrow but was restored. And doesn't negate the fact that two doctors testified to cutting the leg off. See interview:

Interview with Vittorio Messori concerning the miraculous healing of Miguel Juan Pellicer’s severed leg

Regarding your claim that Catholics can be the recipients of miracles - what a bogus claim. Miracles happen to people of many faiths and even people of no faith. Miracles, unless you are talking about the resurrection of Jesus, do not affirm anyone's religious beliefs. How would you know if it was the religious beliefs of the person healed or the person who prayed for them/ Instead, miracles are a sign of divine intervention in the natural order.

Factfinder

just_sayin said:

Factfinder said:

just_sayin said:

Factfinder said:

@just_sayin

Ok maybe I deserved the "fallacy" vote for my snarky response "gish gallop". But on the whole growing a leg back thing every time I challenged you to explain on your own why you think 24 guys sayin, "yeah he didn't have a leg but now he does" is extraordinary evidence of supernatural intervention; all you could do is appeal to authority. WHY DO YOU BELIEVE IT?

Appeal to authority? I appealed to the evidence. Do you have any witness testimony that says this was a fake? Maybe a neighbor, or even an enemy of the man's who said that the account was untrue? No, you don't, because every witness interviewed corroborated the account. Now understand the setting - this wasn't some story passed around in a bar with people claiming that they had heard that story, this was a year long tribunal investigation presided by the archbishop, and involved the king. Witnesses gave their testimony as if it were a court case and were cross examined. The doctors who testified to amputating the leg provided detailed records of the surgery, the burying of the leg, and the man's recovery. The doctors who testified that they had seen the man shortly after his leg reappeared testified to its condition and provided medical records as it grew strong over the next several days and weeks. There were many testimonies from people who saw him during the 2 1/2 years he did not have his right leg, after it was amputated.

In fairness, I would say you have made an appeal to authority - your belief that science holds all the answers. I have appealed to the evidence, you have appealed to authority. I don't know if you are a believer in scientism to the extent of @MayCaesar, but I just don't have that kind of faith to ignore facts like him. If it walks like a duck, and has 2 feet like a duck, where it only had one foot before, then it is a duck on 2 feet now. Believers in scientism would deny factual information to maintain their belief in science and avoid the dissonance that reality differs from their faith.. Now to people who treat science like its a religion, and deny the supernatural, they will claim that it does not walk like a duck, even when they can see for themselves the duck is walking with both legs where it only had one leg before.

Why would you say that many eye witness testimonies, some from well known medical professionals of their day is no extraordinary evidence? Just what would be extraordinary evidence in this case? I made the observation that you moved the goal posts before. Where will you carry them now? If you have eye witness testimony or evidence that the event did not occur as 24 witnesses testified it did. Now is your turn to stop appealing to authority, and produce your factual evidence. I'll wait.

You are not appealing to evidence, your appeal is to what you want to believe is evidence and the catholic church which deemed it as such. An appeal to authority.

But for arguments sake, let's say you're right. The guys leg was restored miraculously, old scars and all. If I were a bible believing christian that would destroy my faith completely. Do you know why? Jesus taught us to address the Father in prayers. The bible is clear, no one is worthy of worship but god and praying is an act of worship. Paul told timothy that jesus is the mediator, and paul taught the romans the holy spirit prompts us to pray and what to pray. So if this statue which the story makes so clear is where the guys faith lied cuz he prayed to it vehemently, if it answered a prayer and it did what god hasn't since christ touched an ear, my faith would be a wreck. An idol answered a prayer. The bible doesn't say pray to images and statues, or the virgin mary or anyone else, only god.

Fake amputees are one of the oldest beggar cons in the book. That is a fact. Just coincidence the guys leg wasn't in the grave, huh?

I'm not Catholic, so I have no sacred view of that denominations authority. There are about 1000 pages of testimony from the event. That's evidence.

You claim it was a hoax, because the boy begged alms, but part of his thing was showing off the scares of the amputation:

The boy was recognized by all, and had been operated on by the most famous surgeon of Zaragoza, Professor Estanga, assisted by two excellent doctors and three nurses: there was also a priest, administrator of the hospital. Everyone testified at the trial, also talking about the place where the cut leg was buried, according to custom. Those who gave him alms recalled that not only did Miguel Juan not hide his leg, but that he showed the stump with the healed wound to exhort alms.
The leg no longer being in the grave fits with the fact that the leg did not regrow but was restored. And doesn't negate the fact that two doctors testified to cutting the leg off. See interview:
Interview with Vittorio Messori concerning the miraculous healing of Miguel Juan Pellicer’s severed leg
Regarding your claim that Catholics can be the recipients of miracles - what a bogus claim. Miracles happen to people of many faiths and even people of no faith. Miracles, unless you are talking about the resurrection of Jesus, do not affirm anyone's religious beliefs. How would you know if it was the religious beliefs of the person healed or the person who prayed for them/ Instead, miracles are a sign of divine intervention in the natural order.

I did not say you have a "sacred view" of the catholic denominations authority. I said you appeal to authority. Do you understand what I mean?

Actually one "doctor" testified to amputating the leg. The other one testified that the guy had two legs and now one is amputated. But that's a moot point. Because messori and the transcripts of the "investigation" are authoritative points of reference, not evidence. Appeal to authority. Not divine intervention.

Messori is (was?) peddling a book whose target audiences are the religious. How many written pages has the the catholic church dedicated to denying fathers were molesting young boys do you think are in transcripts of "investigations"? For get the appeals. Why do you believe this?

just_sayin

Factfinder said:

just_sayin said:

Factfinder said:

just_sayin said:

Factfinder said:

@just_sayin

Ok maybe I deserved the "fallacy" vote for my snarky response "gish gallop". But on the whole growing a leg back thing every time I challenged you to explain on your own why you think 24 guys sayin, "yeah he didn't have a leg but now he does" is extraordinary evidence of supernatural intervention; all you could do is appeal to authority. WHY DO YOU BELIEVE IT?

Appeal to authority? I appealed to the evidence. Do you have any witness testimony that says this was a fake? Maybe a neighbor, or even an enemy of the man's who said that the account was untrue? No, you don't, because every witness interviewed corroborated the account. Now understand the setting - this wasn't some story passed around in a bar with people claiming that they had heard that story, this was a year long tribunal investigation presided by the archbishop, and involved the king. Witnesses gave their testimony as if it were a court case and were cross examined. The doctors who testified to amputating the leg provided detailed records of the surgery, the burying of the leg, and the man's recovery. The doctors who testified that they had seen the man shortly after his leg reappeared testified to its condition and provided medical records as it grew strong over the next several days and weeks. There were many testimonies from people who saw him during the 2 1/2 years he did not have his right leg, after it was amputated.

In fairness, I would say you have made an appeal to authority - your belief that science holds all the answers. I have appealed to the evidence, you have appealed to authority. I don't know if you are a believer in scientism to the extent of @MayCaesar, but I just don't have that kind of faith to ignore facts like him. If it walks like a duck, and has 2 feet like a duck, where it only had one foot before, then it is a duck on 2 feet now. Believers in scientism would deny factual information to maintain their belief in science and avoid the dissonance that reality differs from their faith.. Now to people who treat science like its a religion, and deny the supernatural, they will claim that it does not walk like a duck, even when they can see for themselves the duck is walking with both legs where it only had one leg before.

Why would you say that many eye witness testimonies, some from well known medical professionals of their day is no extraordinary evidence? Just what would be extraordinary evidence in this case? I made the observation that you moved the goal posts before. Where will you carry them now? If you have eye witness testimony or evidence that the event did not occur as 24 witnesses testified it did. Now is your turn to stop appealing to authority, and produce your factual evidence. I'll wait.

You are not appealing to evidence, your appeal is to what you want to believe is evidence and the catholic church which deemed it as such. An appeal to authority.

But for arguments sake, let's say you're right. The guys leg was restored miraculously, old scars and all. If I were a bible believing christian that would destroy my faith completely. Do you know why? Jesus taught us to address the Father in prayers. The bible is clear, no one is worthy of worship but god and praying is an act of worship. Paul told timothy that jesus is the mediator, and paul taught the romans the holy spirit prompts us to pray and what to pray. So if this statue which the story makes so clear is where the guys faith lied cuz he prayed to it vehemently, if it answered a prayer and it did what god hasn't since christ touched an ear, my faith would be a wreck. An idol answered a prayer. The bible doesn't say pray to images and statues, or the virgin mary or anyone else, only god.

Fake amputees are one of the oldest beggar cons in the book. That is a fact. Just coincidence the guys leg wasn't in the grave, huh?

I'm not Catholic, so I have no sacred view of that denominations authority. There are about 1000 pages of testimony from the event. That's evidence.

You claim it was a hoax, because the boy begged alms, but part of his thing was showing off the scares of the amputation:

The boy was recognized by all, and had been operated on by the most famous surgeon of Zaragoza, Professor Estanga, assisted by two excellent doctors and three nurses: there was also a priest, administrator of the hospital. Everyone testified at the trial, also talking about the place where the cut leg was buried, according to custom. Those who gave him alms recalled that not only did Miguel Juan not hide his leg, but that he showed the stump with the healed wound to exhort alms.
The leg no longer being in the grave fits with the fact that the leg did not regrow but was restored. And doesn't negate the fact that two doctors testified to cutting the leg off. See interview:
Interview with Vittorio Messori concerning the miraculous healing of Miguel Juan Pellicer’s severed leg
Regarding your claim that Catholics can be the recipients of miracles - what a bogus claim. Miracles happen to people of many faiths and even people of no faith. Miracles, unless you are talking about the resurrection of Jesus, do not affirm anyone's religious beliefs. How would you know if it was the religious beliefs of the person healed or the person who prayed for them/ Instead, miracles are a sign of divine intervention in the natural order.



I did not say you have a "sacred view" of the catholic denominations authority. I said you appeal to authority. Do you understand what I mean?

Actually one "doctor" testified to amputating the leg. The other one testified that the guy had two legs and now one is amputated. But that's a moot point. Because messori and the transcripts of the "investigation" are authoritative points of reference, not evidence. Appeal to authority. Not divine intervention.

Messori is (was?) peddling a book whose target audiences are the religious. How many written pages has the the catholic church dedicated to denying fathers were molesting young boys do you think are in transcripts of "investigations"? For get the appeals. Why do you believe this?

First, your theory that Miquel Juan Pellicer was a fraud is based on your imagination, not facts. Several reputable people testified to the event - not just him. The facts are the eye witness accounts. You want to dismiss them because they conflict with your faith view (scientism). Never the less, the medical evidence of the doctor's testimony, is that they amputated the guy's leg, and the other doctor's confirm that after the leg was restored, the guy then had 2 legs - they detail how it was black and blue initially and restored to full health many days later. You said the medical evidence wasn't evidence. Why? Is it because the Catholic church cited that evidence? It seems that is the case. Your issues with the Catholic church are yours. I have pointed to the evidence which must exist, because I can't keep pointing to something that doesn't exist, now can I?

You don't like the guy who wrote a book about the miracle. The miracle happened 400 years ago. He didn't invent it. The recorded testimony of the witnesses, which is evidence, happened 400 years before the guy was even born. You are now creating your own facts about the guy's motives, who you don't even know. Yet, let's be clear. The facts are the facts and they are evidence. If you choose to not believe them that is your choice. Just be sure that you don't confuse the facts of the case with your wishful thinking.

just_sayin

KatiaDbate said:

Well No, I do not believe that praying works. There has been an argument if god exists why does he make people suffer even though if they are innocent. There are many theories on this matter, but I say there is no god because there is so much suffering in this world so therefore no point for praying. Hemanth Mehta from NYT agrees on this with me. He states ...."When it comes down to it, prayer is illogical, even in religious terms. If God has a plan, why try to thwart it? If God can be swayed by prayers, what kind of God would allow the horrors we see in the world?"..

Welcome. I see some form of the objection that you raise and respond to it about every month. It is a common objection. Why does God allow 'horrors'. First, do you think people who do bad things like raping children or killing babies should be punished? If so, then you do believe it is appropriate to punish people - or to inflict some degree of suffering upon them for their behavior. If God is the creator, then he has every right to punish bad behavior - so not only would he have the right to do so, but a just God would punish wrong doing. So it is established that some suffering serves a purpose. I would say that some suffering helps us to grow in our character and helps us to be able to help others who are going through similar difficult circumstances also. So I don't think all suffering is pointless.

Why would a good God allow any suffering at all though? Alvin Plantiga, in his many worlds hypothesis, has stated that evil will exist in any world where free will exists. He theorizes that in a world where an endless amount of people can live and who have free will, someone will eventually choose to do something that is against God's will. They may kill someone, or steal from them, etc. But inevitably, in any possible world where free will is possible, evil will be present. We always like to think of evil as being 'out there' but fail to realize that 'evil' lurks in our own thoughts and actions. We all have chosen at some point to do our own thing, and do what we know would be against God's will.

Then why would God permit free will then? I think the reason is that the highest human act is love, and for true love to exist there must be free will. If love is compelled, and there is no choice in it, then it isn't really love is it? it would just be a mechanical action without any meaning because no choice would be behind it. So in any world where you have true love, the possibility of evil and suffering will exist.

I come from a Christian tradition. We believe that we will suffer here in this life, but that it is not the end. It is but a short moment, for we believe we will live eternally with God.

You mentioned why should someone pray if God has a plan. I would point out that while God's has foreknowledge of the future, his knowledge does not restrict our free will. He has told us to ask for the things we need. Our choices do matter. Now I'm not telling you God answers all prayers, He surely won't. No doubt some people would pray for some very evil things. Yet, God has said that he will answer prayers if they align with His purpose and will for us.

Factfinder

@just_sayin

Well I gave you plenty of chances to persuade me. The fact that you like the story or the guy who wrote the book telling the story isn't persuasive. Even if it helps you maintain your faith in the christian god. Hearsay is not evidence. Even if you accept an authority that claims to have authenticated the claim. We're just going to have to agree to disagree.

just_sayin

Factfinder said:

@just_sayin

Well I gave you plenty of chances to persuade me. The fact that you like the story or the guy who wrote the book telling the story isn't persuasive. Even if it helps you maintain your faith in the christian god. Hearsay is not evidence. Even if you accept an authority that claims to have authenticated the claim. We're just going to have to agree to disagree.

Hey, I enjoy interacting with you. We disagree on this issue. I would argue that eye witness testimony is not 'hearsay'. Medical records and medical testimony are not 'hearsay'. People sometimes mistakenly think only religious people believe things on faith. That is a fallacy. For some people, their god is science, and no amount of supernatural evidence will alter their faith in it. I never assumed I could convince you - to the faithful no amount of evidence can shake their beliefs.

Barnardot

@just_sayin @Factfinder ;For some people, their god is science

No body but no body has a God called science. Science is the cause and effect of natural phenomenon and has nothing to do with faith.

just_sayin

Barnardot said:

@just_sayin @Factfinder ;For some people, their god is science
No body but no body has a God called science. Science is the cause and effect of natural phenomenon and has nothing to do with faith.

Bernie, scientism has been around for a long time. Go look it up.

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Does Praying Work?

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A systematic review of the quality of research on hands-on and distance healing: clinical and laboratory studies

Effects of intercessory prayer on patients with rheumatoid arthritis

A Randomized Trial of the Effect of Prayer on Depression and Anxiety

Results:

Conclusions:

The Effect of Prayer on Depression and Anxiety: Maintenance of Positive Influence One Year after Prayer Intervention

Results:

Conclusions:

A Randomized, Controlled Trial of the Effects of Remote, Intercessory Prayer on Outcomes in Patients Admitted to the Coronary Care Unit

The Effect of Prayer on Depression and Anxiety: Maintenance of Positive Influence One Year after Prayer Intervention

Results:

Conclusions:

A Randomized, Controlled Trial of the Effects of Remote, Intercessory Prayer on Outcomes in Patients Admitted to the Coronary Care Unit

A SYSTEMATIC REVIEW OF THE QUALITY OF RESEARCH ON HANDS-ON AND DISTANCE HEALING: CLINICAL AND LABORATORY STUDIES,

The Efficacy of “Distant Healing A Systematic Review of Randomized Trials

87% of Americans who pray say their prayers were answered in the last year: study

The Case for Miracles: A Journalist Investigates Evidence for the Supernatural

Miracles Today

One Who Took up Her Bed and Walked

Interview with Vittorio Messori concerning the miraculous healing of Miguel Juan Pellicer’s severed leg

Interview with Vittorio Messori concerning the miraculous healing of Miguel Juan Pellicer’s severed leg

Interview with Vittorio Messori concerning the miraculous healing of Miguel Juan Pellicer’s severed leg

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