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Changing one's behavior is difficult enough. Changing one's preferences is downright impossible without very serious and long inner work. Take someone who hates the taste of carrots and try to get them to love it - most likely will not happen. And changing disliking one vegetable to liking it is a billion times easier than changing being sexually attracted to one gender to another.
Lastly, I invite anyone who seriously believes that homosexuality can be changed into heterosexuality at will - conduct the opposite experiment. Pick a month and, assuming you are heterosexual, live it as if you were homosexual. Go on dates with guys (involving making out), share bed with them, watch gay porn... Then let us know how it went.
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Well as you know your the tard since I dont have any issues and I don’t get kicked off here all the time and I have the mental maturity to actually face up to issues and debate them instead of acting like a 3 year old.
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You have a lot of issues, for a start you keep whining about me being " kicked off " yet here I am.......you think mental maturity is calling people " liers" or "gay" and you've never once debated an issue as your incapable of doing so.
You're probably the dum-est person I've ever encountered on this site and that's saying something considering your competition.
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Thanks Z , I missed that as Barny never engages where I'm concerned he just constantly attacks.
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Just Sayin posted up.a link regarding depression and gender fluidity thinking it somehow supported his claims.
It's beyond belief that the guy actually believes sexual orientation is a choice but he has to think this way on account of his religious beliefs as homosexuality to his mind is a grave sin and one cannot be born this way as God wouldn't allow it.
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You mean I counter attack all the total nonsense crap that you attack this site with until you get kicked off again. At least I’m responsible enough to out total tards like you who mess up the site and you know very well what happened when you under another name and other mega trolls brought down an other site with all your spamming trash. At least I’m making an effort to keep trolling spamming scum off this site.
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You mean I counter attack all the total nonsense crap that you attack this site with until you get kicked off again.
You're obsessed with getting people kicked off , you never stop whining to the man all because you are not capable of debate.
At least I’m responsible enough to out total tards like you who mess up the site and you know very well what happened when you under another name and other mega trolls brought down an other site with all your spamming trash.
But you're totally forgetting the biggest troll on here is you, all you ever do is call people a " lier" or a " tard" you do this because you're incapable of debating as your st-pidity is different level.
At least I’m making an effort to keep trolling spamming scum off this site.
Yet here you are trolling and you have spammed for Temu , Hermes and Nike in the past ....regards scum well you admitted you and your skank of a girlfriend borrowed money to buy a car and stiffed the seller on repayments .
You see Barny all you're doing is accusing me of what you actually are which is a low life scum bucket.
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First an apology. After looking at https://typeset.io/, I think it can be a valuable research tool. I even added to my folders. I question the value of mentioning research from the 60-70's for sexual orientation fluidity, but more sources are better than less.
I did not misuse the term 'fluidity' to describe sexual orientation. That is the word the researchers use. I haven't said that sexual orientation is only a conscious choice - just that it is not immutable, nor biologically 'determinate' ( I haven't made any argument about biologically influenced). That is either a misunderstanding on your part or an intentional misrepresentation of what I have said. I have not disconnected the environmental factors from the biological ones. I am sure that sexual orientation fluidity involves those as well as a myriad of other things.
Since we are talking about homosexuality - exclusively, per your demand, let make these observations from the literature on https://typeset.io/.
So, the majority of sexual fluidity occurs among non-heterosexual groups. According to
Prevalence and Stability of Sexual Orientation Components During Adolescence and Young Adulthood (you can view the more recent study at https://addhealth.cpc.unc.edu/ - same basic results ) which did a national longitudinal study of American teens over several years said:
So my point is valid - that sexual orientation is not immutable, especially among those who identify as homosexual and are more likely to later identify as heterosexual than vice-versa.
His scientific grandiosity speaks volumes.
Hey, I have never made any personal scientific claim for myself. I have not claimed to be an expert or researcher on the topic.. I have tried to cite sources for any claim, which apparently makes me different than most. If that makes me 'grandiose', so be it.
And then again, there is the poisoning of the well where he is accusing me of posting AI content when I have done no such thing as some childish attempt to discredit me.
I don't mind if you use AI if it ads to the discussion at all. As I observed earlier. I'm not personally attacking you or your AI - I don't even understand the point of that. I may not see the benefit of some AI content in the discussion, but it is nothing personal. I am making an argument that I believe science agrees with. If you disagree with the argument and think sexual orientation is immutable, then show the evidence. Your comments have been so personally directed at me, I don't even have an idea about what your position is.
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So my point is valid - that sexual orientation is not immutable,...
So you believe it's a choice.
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I agree with the science on this. I disagree with you.
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From the original papers you referenced (I wonder why you didn't quote any of this??)
Bold Added
One of the original papers was referenced earlier via one or more links from @just_sayin. More can be read and ideally should be read here: https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/pdf/10.1177/1529100616637616.
Another original paper:https://www.researchgate.net/profile/J-Bailey-4/publication/282051582_Genetics_of_Human_Sexual_Orientation/links/5748ce0a08ae5bf2e63efbee/Genetics-of-Human-Sexual-Orientation.pdf
Contemporary academic literature:
Sexual Orientation: Categories or Continuum? Commentary on Bailey et al. (2016): https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/1529100616637618
Biological foundations of sexual orientation
10 - Gay Genes? Genetics and Sexual Orientation
Published online by Cambridge University Press: 11 September 2020 - https://www.cambridge.org/core/books/abs/are-we-slaves-to-our-genes/gay-genes-genetics-and-sexual-orientation/3C1A61B7C5207BA60C152301E205CCB4
https://www.forbes.com/sites/dawnstaceyennis/2019/08/30/the-gay-gene-is-a-myth-but-being-gay-is-natural-say-scientists/
https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/science.aat7693 (reference earlier by you too @just_sayin, I think)
Moreover, I disagree with your misinterpretation of the scientific literature and the misalignment with contemporary data. Non-immutability and/or fluidity mean variances across natural developmental stages; it has nothing to do with libertarian free will!
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It's like did any heterosexual ask why they are? No they just accepted it. Do we blame them? No. So why do we tend to blame the homosexuals for why they are? There are certain people on this site who need to believe its a choice so their god doesn't come off the jerk. But the fact is people can't help what they're attracted to. And if god exist then god made them, like everything else. So there's no reason to persecute them. Of course the real reason not to persecute them is they leave more women for us!
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The reasoning of your article is pure personal opinion though - there is no test to delineate if someone pursues a course of action because of environment or because of choice. If you think I'm wrong - show me the experiment where the 2 are tested separately I'll wait.. Further, you lied about what I said. Why did you lie?
Again, I asked you if you thought sexual orientation was immutable or if it was biologically determinate. You have not really answered that, and have created a strawman that claims that if something is non-immutable (I assume you mean mutable) it has nothing to do with free will. It is sad that you have not only lied about my statements, but you think so little of LGBTQ+ people, equating them with Pavlovian dogs - not able to make choices but only able to respond to their environment. Were your lies intentional?
I will commend you for using your own voice though. With all the lies, strawmen, and slander, it is obvious it wasn't your AI talking this time.
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If you look back over the discussion, you see I have avoided the use of the word choice, because it is a loaded word
How is that a loaded word? Bottom line is your perspective is it has to be a choice or god has no right to punish homosexuality as a sin. Everything you argued suggested choice even though you avoided that specific word.
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No my religion does not need there to be no biological association with homosexuality. There are potential genetic markers associated with alcoholism, drug use, and compulsive gambling, and just because there are possible genetic markers, doesn''t mean that we are not all responsible for our own conduct. My faith considers drunkeness a sin also, but it doesn't condemn someone for being more susceptible for alcoholism. It is their personal actions that matter.
As I have pointed out from the literature, which Zeus lied about, the current claim is that in 8 to 25% of self-identifying non-heterosexual there exists one or more of 5 genetic markers that may have a genetic 'influence' on LGBTQ+, however, as I pointed out, this is different than genetic 'determinate'. That means for over 2/3 to 3/4th of self-identifying non-heterosexuals there is no evidence of any kind of biological factors.
My faith does not say that someone is guilty of sin for for their thoughts, their genes, or for their environment, but it is their actions that they are held accountable for.
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It is their personal actions that matter.
Right, it is the predisposition and proclivity indwelled into them which your god created them with; that condemns them. They can't help it they're attracted to the same sex, your god, if he exist as you believe, created them with those desires. Then he condemns them for them. Your god fails as the administer of morals.
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You previously claimed that to claim the majority of the world's population was hetrosexual was a " spurious claim" and as usual fled when asked to back your nonsense up.
You've been asked several times by me and others to back your claims up regards sexual orientation being a choice , sadly yet again you deflect and dodge when asked to back that absurd claim up.
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I have repeatedly pointed out that the research shows that there is a lot of fluidity in sexual orientation Why do you continue to lie about this?. With various studies showing between 10 to 50 percent of those identifying as non-heterosexual changing their sexual orientation at some point. I mentioned several studies that show this:
Sexual fluidity common among American young adults
Sexual identity fluidity, identity management stress, and depression among sexual minority adolescents
Study Highlights Fluid Sexual Orientation in Many Teens
Let me quote from some studies:Sociodemographic Patterns in Retrospective Sexual Orientation Identity and Attraction Change in the Sexual Orientation Fluidity in Youth Study
Sexual identity fluidity, identity management stress, and depression among sexual minority adolescents
Study Highlights Fluid Sexual Orientation in Many Teens
But wait there's more:
Fixed or Fluid? Sexual Identity Fluidity in a Large National Panel Study of New Zealand Adults
Sexual Fluidity in Male and Females
Sexual Fluidity: Implications for Population Research - Duke University
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I did not claim that the majority of the world's population is non-heterosexual. That is a lie of your own invention. Why do you feel the need to make up lies?
You actually did , I don't mind you lying I expect that of you it's your only resort when beaten yet again , sold you at least own up to your lies?
I previously stated .......
The obvious fact that the vast majority of the world's population remain with the same sexual identity they were born with?
Your reply ......
You don't get to make a false claim. Back it up.
You called that a "false claim" all in your own words , so man up and apologise for lying again......watch now as Just Lying tries to cover his lie with more lies.
I have repeatedly pointed out that the research shows that there is a lot of fluidity in sexual orientation
"A lot"? 80 / 90 percent of the worlds population is heterosexual , so what's " a lot" ?
Why do you continue to lie about this?
Lie about what exactly? A link to a study showing a very low minority of deepressd American kids may be confused regards sexual orientation?
What a "searing" revelation
. With various studies showing between 10 to 50 percent of those identifying as non-heterosexual changing their sexual orientation at some point. I mentioned several studies that show this:
Oh it's 50 per cent now of 10 percent wow! A staggering 5 percent ......seriously that's it?
So you still refuse to admit openly you think sexual orientation is a choice yet that's what you believe ......good ole yellow as usual, what a coward.
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You get that these are 2 different things right? Sexual orientation being mutable is one issue, while heterosexuality being more prominent is another, right? Me proving sexual orientation is fluid does not disprove that most people are heterosexual.
The issue is if sexual orientation is fluid. I provided a lot of studies that show it is. And what studies did you provide to show that people never change their sexual orientation? Oh, that's right, you didn't.
The studies show that how someone self-identifies can change and occurs in percentage of people (most studies place it between 10 to 20 percent - who have over a multi-year period changed how they self-identified sexually). Since this debate was specifically about gay men, let me repeat:
https://typeset.io/. ;
So, about 1 out of every 5 gay men have had sex with a woman in the past year alone. Which goes to show you that sexual-orientation is not set in stone and is not immutable.
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So, about 1 out of every 5 gay men have had sex with a woman in the past year alone. Which goes to show you that sexual-orientation is not set in stone and is not immutable
The only reason to make that statement is to lead to a conclusion of choice in the end. You're claiming 1 out of every 5 gay men make the choice to sleep with women as well. So logic would dictate the others can as well? Is that your point? Cause no matter what 'choice' people make about who they have sex with, their sexual orientation doesn't change. Heterosexuals sleep with people they're not attracted to for various reasons. I imagine homosexuals would too; don't you think? If they're attracted to the opposite sex then that's the case, if they're attracted to the same sex then that's the case, they still have no choice in THAT matter.
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Can people change their patterns and thoughts? Just as with people losing weight, quitting drugs, alcohol or gambling, yes, they can, but often not without immense and prolonged effort. Even then, they may have attractions and thoughts because of how those patterns have been established in their brain. As AA teaches, you never stop being an alcoholic. That doesn't mean that the person can't live a life where they no longer drink and that after establishing new patterns it isn't a little easier to live without drinking.
Because of the political aspects of the issue, people want to deny the scientific research and make claims that sexual orientation does not change, when the evidence is, it can and does for some people. For 60 plus years people claimed that people are born gay. we now know that there is no gay gene. The alleged gay genetic markers are not genetically determinate, that more heterosexuals than homosexuals have so called gay genetic markers, We know that a noticeable percentage of people change sexual orientation during their lifetime. We also know that about 2/3rds to 3/4ths of all people who identify as gay, have no gay genetic markers at all, while some heterosexuals have the so-called gay genetic markers. That's what the science says.
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What about people who are married with children who come out and get divorced? The number one reason given I'd say is they couldn't live any longer being dishonest with themselves. They supposed to do the 12 steps?
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You get that these are 2 different things right? Sexual orientation being mutable is one issue, while heterosexuality being more prominent is another, right? Me proving sexual orientation is fluid does not disprove that most people are heterosexual.
As I predicted you invent a lie to cover your previous lies. Sexual orientation is stable for the vast majority of people and not " mutable" by any means.
You did indeed claim that me stating that most people retain the same sexual identity throughout life was a lie , you lose ......again.
The issue is if sexual orientation is fluid. I provided a lot of studies that show it is
No you didn't, you provided studies that show a very small minority suffer confusion over the issue and links towards depression in these individuals, also one of your studies said 39 percent of the individuals polled identified as non binrary , seriously buddy is that your best?
. And what studies did you provide to show that people never change their sexual orientation?
But again that's another lie as I never said " people never change" I said the vast majority never changed their orientation , so do you wish to dispute this fact again and then deny you disputed it?
Oh, that's right, you didn't.
You want the figures again proving how many heterosexuals are in the world?
The studies show that how someone self-identifies can change and occurs in percentage of people (most studies place it between 10 to 20 percent - who have over a multi-year period changed how they self-identified sexually). Since this debate was specifically about gay men, let me repeat:
No one denied that some people change as in a small minority , you're basically saying it's a choice which is nonsense
So, about 1 out of every 5 gay men have had sex with a woman in the past year alone. Which goes to show you that sexual-orientation is not set in stone and is not immutable.
Then they are not gay but bisexual , again you're saying sexual preference is down to choice but refuse to directly state it as you know its utter nonsense
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I wish a gay person would offer their perspective on this. I can only imagine what it would be like if I wasn't attracted to women but know I can't change that about myself. Why someone who knows they can't change their natural attractions expects someone else to I'll never know.
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Anyway, the people arguing that sexual orientation is fluid are not doing so on the basis of being religious. In fact, the opposite is much more likely the case. The researchers are very pro LGBTQ+/ The most prolific and leading researcher on the topic is herself a Lesbian.. I've cited their work multiple times now, but you haven't provided a single source that says that sexual orientation is not fluid. Either put up or .
I have not argued that change is easy, I have only pointed you to the research that says it happens. And for the record, no, I do not think I can change anyone. I think no one changes who doesn't first want to. I think if someone wants to change, that change is possible though. The research support this.
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People can't help their personal attractions they become aware of as they grow and mature. 90% of people develop desires for the opposite sex, 10% develop similar desires for the same sex or both. Not in any stage where the natural development of sexual attraction is concerned is the person making a choice before those desires comes into full fruition. I just liked girls, period. I didn't choose that but I'm happy with it. Can you explain what exactly is your take when these researchers of yours talk of 'fluidity'? Can you change your sexual orientation?
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Like Joeseph, you admit there are lots of examples of people whose sexual orientation changed, but you dismiss them as is they are aberrant without providing any reason why that is.
You suggested that all instances of sexual orientation switching must be immense and prolonged. But the national youth longitudinal study for sexual orientation showed that some people changed sexual orientation 5 times during the multiyear study. Seems that the switching was not so immense or prolonged.
From
RESEARCH ON ADOLESCENT SEXUAL ORIENTATION: DEVELOPMENT, HEALTH DISPARITIES, STIGMA AND RESILIENCE
On the National Institutes of Health website:So to recap. I provided research for my claims. You provided no evidence for yours. Maybe you could put in the 'immense and prolonged' effort to try and make a fact based argument. Just sayin
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Right, so all the natural changes that occur throughout puberty until adulthood mean that once one reaches adulthood, they can voluntarily change all of this with enough effort? I guess with enough effort on our part we could change the size of our d!ck right?
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This dichotomist view is rooted in the old "nurture vs nature" debate. This isn't the case anymore. With the recent scientific advancements, the current consensus is that homosexuality, along with other notable human characteristics, rests on a multifactorial perspective encompassing biological and environmental factors, among other variables.
Environmental and Biological factors are not mutually exclusive, and it doesn't make any sense to say that something is purely environmental or biological; you need biological underpinnings in the first place for them to be able to be influenced. The discussion among scientists now is more about the influence of different factors, including but not limited to genetics, prenatal conditions, social environments, and personal experiences and why these factors cannot be ignored.
Furthermore, like with the question in the argument topic, the question "Are we either born gay or do we choose to be gay?" is based on yet again binary thinking and ignores the scientific reality, which is far more complex. We may choose who and how to identify as or who to have a sexual relationship with. What we cannot do (and it is absurd to suggest otherwise) is choose who we are physically attracted to; sexual behaviour does not equate to physical attraction!
The other common flaw I have seen in many of the arguments in this thread, among other debates of the exact nature in the past, is the failure to understand that many biological and environmental influences we see taking place later on, are not there at the time of birth, as well as the misunderstanding regarding how heredity works. There is, of course, no gay gene, and it is ludicrous to suggest there is. Just like it is silly to think there must be some single religious gene, this is not how genetics/heredity work. Likewise, it's equally absurd to believe that sexual orientation can be changed at will due to the absence of a specific gay gene. When engaging in discussions about homosexuality, contemporary scientists are most definitely talking about a wide array of genetic influences interacting in a complex way with the environment versus any single gene.
The other flaw noted here is the factually inaccurate claim that identical twins can have two orientations. The factually accurate claim here is the following:
Put more simply, Identical twins with the same genes are significantly far more likely to be both homosexual as opposed to fraternal twins who share only 50 per cent of each other's genes.
Lastly, from the most up-to-date literate, read this:
American Psychological Association. (n.d.). Resolution on Appropriate Affirmative Responses to Sexual Orientation Distress and Change Efforts. Retrieved from https://www.apa.org/about/policy/resolution-sexual-orientation-change-efforts.pdf (Bold added).
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You suggested that all instances of sexual orientation switching must be immense and prolonged.
Show me what post I said that. That's more like your your claim...
Just as with people losing weight, quitting drugs, alcohol or gambling, yes, they can, but often not without immense and prolonged effort. Even then, they may have attractions and thoughts because of how those patterns have been established in their brain https://www.debateisland.com/discussion/comment/179288/#Comment_179288
In which part of my response was: Just because a small minority of people change their orientation undoubtably after an "immense and prolonged effort" as you suggest, by no means indicates the issue is settled.
Notice I used quotation marks quoting you and gave the explanative 'as you suggest' so there can be no confusion who makes such claims; that'd be you.
What are you asking for research of? That 90% of people born never change their sexual preferences? Yes, it's true then, I agree with Joseph, that's nonsense. If you don't accept common knowledge, (in every sense of the word) then it's pointless to debate with you.
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JUST SAYIN : Is deliberately misreprenting others arguments and ( as usual) saying scholars are wrong but he is right
***Like Joeseph, you admit there are lots of examples of people whose sexual orientation changed, but you dismiss them as is they are aberrant without providing any reason why that is. ***
FF or I did not dismiss those whose sexual orientation changs during their youth in fact we both acknowledged it , you're terribly dishonest in debate.
You're totally misrepresenting what most scholars in the field say ......
The American Academy of Pediatrics in 2004 stated:[13]
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I think you're spot on regards debating this guy ,he just keep repeating the same nonsense thinking somehow we will all suddenly agree with his nonsense.
As we all know he's saying sexual orientation is a choice yet won't fully admit to this as he knows to hold such a view leaves him with a minority of relgious crackpots who unsurprisingly are on the same page.
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Funny isn't it ? I wonder why nearly 90 per cent of the adult world's population don't avail of this simple " choice" ?
Maybe it's all because they are afraid of gods judgement.
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He is right about these arguments being often politically motivated. But he conveniently forgets to mention that they are also often religiously motivated.
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Again, the debate is are people born gay. The research shows that there is no gay gene and that there are no known biological markers that are determinate for gayness. read here.
I've proven the thesis that people are not born gay. The research clearly shows that sexual orientation is fluid, at least through the teen years. If you have evidence that people are born gay then you should have shared it.
On a side note, why is it so few debaters on this site provide evidence to support their claims? My observation is that someone is much more likely to make a personal attack in this debate, like questioning an opponents sexual orientation, than actually supporting their argument with evidence.
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The American Academy Of Pediatrics In 2004 Stated:[13]
I'm so proud of you. Wow, this has to be a first, you provided a line of evidence for your point!!!!! The problem is that it reflects 2004 data. Since then there have been National Longitudinal studies for the Dutch, New Zealand, the UK, and the US, as well as the almost 1/2 million people study. Your quote is the equivalent of someone claiming there is evidence of a flat earth 'in the current literature'.
American Psychological Association defines sexual orientation as:
Sexual orientation refers to an enduring pattern of emotional, romantic, and/or sexual attractions to men, women, or both sexes. Sexual orientation also refers to a person’s sense of identity based on those attractions, related behaviors, and membership in a community of others who share those attractions
So the definition includes these four things: attractions, behavior, and identity, and membership in a community. The numerous studies I have mentioned on sexual orientation fluidity then show that these four things are not immutable, but change.
Now if something is not a choice, then it can not change itself. Yet, we have evidence that sexual orientation does indeed change. I noticed you didn't explain how sexual orientation can fluidly change, if there is no choice involved. What is your evidence of how sexual orientation can change without any choice being involved?
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Wow! You're whining about my piece not being more up to date yet you constantly quote from a 2000 year old book and call its ramblings ....Fact ......hilarious.
The most up to date findings support the fact that secual orientation is not a choice I know this fact goes in the face of your religious beliefs but that's tough facts do not care about your religious dictates.
Your unfounded contention remains that sexual orientation is a choice and your " best evidence" has been a minority study demonstrating 39 per cent of non binrary depressed children in a small poll were confused about sexual orientation...dear or dear.
So do explain why 90 per cent of the world's population stay the same sexual orientation they were born with?
Is it because they fear gods wrath?
You believe it is don't you ?
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@just_sayin
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/8494487/
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Homosexuality has been documented throughout human history. This dates back to ancient times with much evidence in literature and records. Homosexuality has existed for millenia. Studies have found that homosexuality orientation rates amongst monozygotic (identical) twins is 65.8% and among dizygotic twins it is 30.4%. This seems to support the argument for biological bases in sexual orientation. Because the higher incidence in identical twins is higher, this is interpreted as supporting the role that genetics plays in sexual orientation. While these percentages are not 100%, there seems to be enough evidence to support a genetic connection. I think that anything other than this interpretation is actually the archaic theory.
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That is regarding the statement that "only actions matter, not desires". Cool. Only for a heterosexual man mustering the courage and telling a woman that he likes her and wants her number is seen as a ballsy action: "You are the boss, ! Nicely done! Go after your dreams!" But for a homosexual man to do this is, "How dare you?"
May I suggest turning things around? Anyone seeking love and being brave in the process, defying social norms and expectations, is a hero. And everyone who tells them that they are sinners is a dickwad. How does that sound?
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I mentioned to Joeseph, that American Psychological Association defines sexual orientation as:
Sexual orientation refers to an enduring pattern of emotional, romantic, and/or sexual attractions to men, women, or both sexes. Sexual orientation also refers to a person’s sense of identity based on those attractions, related behaviors, and membership in a community of others who share those attractions
Can someone change their attractions, or behavior, or identity, or membership in a community then they can change their sexual orientation. A person can change all four, as the research shows. This may require immense and a prolonged effort, but the research shows that this has happened.
Joeseph brought up the 90% of people are heterosexual. I did not say that it was untrue, my focus was on if people could change their sexual orientation, and again the literature says it can. Do you have evidence that it can not change? if so what is it? If people can change their sexual orientation then how do they do this without making any choices?
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The fact that identical twins can have different sexual orientations shows that there is no gay gene. If there was a gay gene, then if one twin were gay, the other would be also. we know that is not the case. The almost 1/2 million participant study said
the report finds that human DNA cannot predict who is gay or heterosexual. Sexuality cannot be pinned down by biology, psychology or life experiences
The half a million participants includes twins also. I get that a lot of old timey research made false claims about gay genes. These were lies and have been disproven. There is no gay gene. So called gay genetic markers are not generically determinate. That means they don't determine a persons sexual orientation. In fact a greater number of heterosexuals have these genetic markers, than do non-heterosexuals
Research on sexual orientation shows that there is fluidity and that some people change their sexual orientation, sometimes many times over the course of their lifetime.
Sociodemographic Patterns in Retrospective Sexual Orientation Identity and Attraction Change in the Sexual Orientation Fluidity in Youth Study
Sexual identity fluidity, identity management stress, and depression among sexual minority adolescents
Study Highlights Fluid Sexual Orientation in Many Teens
Sexual Fluidity in Male and Females
Sexual Fluidity: Implications for Population Research - Duke University
. Do you have any research post 2019 that shows that there is no sexual orientation fluidity?Again, great talking with you.
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Nowhere in the literature does it say someone can change their orientation, and no amount of lying to yourself or others will change what the literature actually says. It says that changes in sexual orientation can be seen among some people via developmental stages. sexual fluidity (Something you constantly misinterpret) refers to variations within a person's experiences of attraction, not a wholesale change from one orientation to another. Completely different things! Sexual orientation, as also stated in the literature, has to do with physical attraction, which is a physical characteristic.
And so my point about being able to change our d!ck size still stands and is something you will need to accept to be logically consistent. You are literally saying that a person can consciously and willfully change a physical trait. It doesn't have to be our penis size; it could even be our height or any other physical trait that, according to you, we can change. If this all sounds absurd, it's because it is, but the absurdity is originally in your argument. To be logically consistent, you will need to accept this. Your argument will still be ludicrous, but at least you will be logically consistent with your idiocy.
just_sayin @just_sayin
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Put more simply, Identical twins with the same genes are significantly far more likely to be both homosexual as opposed to fraternal twins who share only 50 per cent of each other's genes.
Lastly, from the most up-to-date literate, read this:
American Psychological Association. (n.d.). Resolution on Appropriate Affirmative Responses to Sexual Orientation Distress and Change Efforts. Retrieved from https://www.apa.org/about/policy/resolution-sexual-orientation-change-efforts.pdf (Bold added).
Glad you didn't fall back to the AI. But copy and pasting from Wikipedia???? Seriously. The 2019 almost half a million participant study, showed that
I seem to have to keep mentioning this but that study found that 1) there is no gay gene, 2) five genetic markers associated with sexual orientation are not genetically determinate - meaning that a) more heterosexuals have those markers, and b) most gay people do not have any of those markers. The markers may have some genetic influence (estimated from 8 to 25% of gay people), but genetic influence is not the same as genetic determinate, so sorry, people aren't born with an immutable sexual orientation.
I keep coming back to defining sexual orientation because it seems some are making up their own definition of what it is and what it entails. The American Psychological Association defines sexual orientation as:
Can any or all of these four aspects change? Yep, and the research shows that all four can and do change.
Sociodemographic Patterns in Retrospective Sexual Orientation Identity and Attraction Change in the Sexual Orientation Fluidity in Youth Study
Sexual identity fluidity, identity management stress, and depression among sexual minority adolescents
Study Highlights Fluid Sexual Orientation in Many Teens
Sexual Fluidity in Male and Females
Sexual Fluidity: Implications for Population Research - Duke University
SOCE???? The debate topic is if someone is born gay. While discussions of SOCE will touch on if someone is born gay, that is not part of the scope of this debate. Whatever your feelings for or against SOCE does not change the fact that there is no gay gene, that gay genetic markers are not genetically determinate, and that people experience a great deal of sexual orientation fluidity where they CHANGE their attractions, behaviors, sexual identity, and their identified group.That is what the best research literature shows. I can't speak for what wikipedia says, as it can be edited by anybody.
You haven't shown how someone's sexual orientation changes automatically without any choice on their part. How do attractions, behaviors, identity, and group affiliations change so fluidly - if there is never ever ever any choice involved? Please not only give me an answer to this, but also provide the research. Thank you.
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Put more simply, Identical twins with the same genes are significantly far more likely to be both homosexual as opposed to fraternal twins who share only 50 per cent of each other's genes.
Lastly, from the most up-to-date literate, read this:
American Psychological Association. (n.d.). Resolution on Appropriate Affirmative Responses to Sexual Orientation Distress and Change Efforts. Retrieved from https://www.apa.org/about/policy/resolution-sexual-orientation-change-efforts.pdf (Bold added).
"Glad you didn't fall back to the AI. But copy and pasting from Wikipedia???? Seriously. The 2019 almost half a million participant study, showed that
I seem to have to keep mentioning this but that study found that 1) there is no gay gene, 2) five genetic markers associated with sexual orientation are not genetically determinate - meaning that a) more heterosexuals have those markers, and b) most gay people do not have any of those markers. The markers may have some genetic influence (estimated from 8 to 25% of gay people), but genetic influence is not the same as genetic determinate, so sorry, people aren't born with an immutable sexual orientation.
I keep coming back to defining sexual orientation because it seems some are making up their own definition of what it is and what it entails. The American Psychological Association defines sexual orientation as:
Can any or all of these four aspects change? Yep, and the research shows that all four can and do change.
Sociodemographic Patterns in Retrospective Sexual Orientation Identity and Attraction Change in the Sexual Orientation Fluidity in Youth Study
Sexual identity fluidity, identity management stress, and depression among sexual minority adolescents
Study Highlights Fluid Sexual Orientation in Many Teens
Sexual Fluidity in Male and Females
Sexual Fluidity: Implications for Population Research - Duke University
SOCE???? The debate topic is if someone is born gay. While discussions of SOCE will touch on if someone is born gay, that is not part of the scope of this debate. Whatever your feelings for or against SOCE does not change the fact that there is no gay gene, that gay genetic markers are not genetically determinate, and that people experience a great deal of sexual orientation fluidity where they CHANGE their attractions, behaviors, sexual identity, and their identified group.That is what the best research literature shows. I can't speak for what wikipedia says, as it can be edited by anybody.
You haven't shown how someone's sexual orientation changes automatically without any choice on their part. How do attractions, behaviors, identity, and group affiliations change so fluidly - if there is never ever ever any choice involved? Please not only give me an answer to this, but also provide the research. Thank you.""
That is not what the literature shows. That is your misunderstanding of the literature and, thus, misrepresentation of it. It's not your fault (Assuming you are not a scientist and/or in academia). I provided the research. I will stop correcting your misinterpretation and trying to simplify this for you, though, as it is getting boring.
As a Polish proverb said once: "Do not attempt to cure what you do not understand!
Thanks.
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Pay attention:
Sociodemographic Patterns in Retrospective Sexual Orientation Identity and Attraction Change in the Sexual Orientation Fluidity in Youth Study
Sexual identity fluidity, identity management stress, and depression among sexual minority adolescents
Study Highlights Fluid Sexual Orientation in Many Teens
Sexual Fluidity in Male and Females
Sexual Fluidity: Implications for Population Research - Duke University
Did you catch that? Attractions changed, behaviors changed, sexual identities changed, and group affiliations changed. You want to claim that those who said their sexual orientation changed lied. But that is not their experience. Instead it is your claim, not supported by their experience. See the difference?
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