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How would this be explained through flat earth theory? I'm not sure what to believe now."
This is a very good point, and at first glance it would seem that the everyday observation that the sun appears to go down over the horizon is evidence that favors the globe earth model, until we account for atmospheric refraction.
First, to be sure that the water here is still as flat as it seems, we can make another observation.
This reflection is only possible on a flat surface. This is demonstrable with experimentation. Take a piece of reflective material, like sheet metal flashing and flatten it out while holding it close to your eye, aiming at any light source. You'll notice the reflection is elongated and in a straight line. Similar to headlights on a flat and straight road:
If you start bending this material, you"ll see the reflection all but vanishes. This is because a specular highlight is formed on a reflective convex surface, and the reflection wouldn't reach around the curve to the observer.
Now that we can see beyond doubt what shape the water is, the question can be asked: "How can a sunset happen on a flat earth?" In the flat earth model, the sun goes around overhead in a circle, at approximately the same altitude, so theoretically, it would be impossible to go below the earth. This is the beauty of intelligent design. Now we consider and test refraction. We know from experimentation that water vapor in the air will cause a displacement, but it also causes a magnification. Take a container of water, and place it near the observer, and place an object behind it. Play around with the setup and you will see, with your own eyes, the object appear to set below a flat counter. Here is a demonstration you can try at home.
This guy goes a bit further and finds a humid warehouse to do the experiment and effectively causes a sunset without liquid water and some distance.
"Traditionally evolution does stem from the big bang theory but the idea behind natural selection can still exist without the big bang."
As far as adaptation, where a species of animal starts developing longer necks to reach higher food, that is plausible. As far as a dog giving birth to a cat, or speciation, there is no evidence for it.
"The formation of life remains a mystery, and I think that scientist's need for closure has gotten the best of them, so I'm not sure what the creation story is. As for heaven, I have never seen anything in the sky that could look like heaven. Is heaven what most consider stars in the sky?"
Not exactly, but let's refer to heaven, in this context, as the firmament. See my post in the first page of this debate:
https://www.debateisland.com/discussion/1730/is-space-fake/p1
Scientific method: noun; a method of procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses.
The highest form of ignorance is when you reject something you don't know anything about.
Wayne Dyer
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How would this be explained through flat earth theory? I'm not sure what to believe now."
This is a very good point, and at first glance it would seem that the everyday observation that the sun appears to go down over the horizon is evidence that favors the globe earth model, until we account for atmospheric refraction.
First, to be sure that the water here is still as flat as it seems, we can make another observation.
This reflection is only possible on a flat surface. This is demonstrable with experimentation. Take a piece of reflective material, like sheet metal flashing and flatten it out while holding it close to your eye, aiming at any light source. You'll notice the reflection is elongated and in a straight line. Similar to headlights on a flat and straight road:
If you start bending this material, you"ll see the reflection all but vanishes. This is because a specular highlight is formed on a reflective convex surface, and the reflection wouldn't reach around the curve to the observer.
Now that we can see beyond doubt what shape the water is, the question can be asked: "How can a sunset happen on a flat earth?" In the flat earth model, the sun goes around overhead in a circle, at approximately the same altitude, so theoretically, it would be impossible to go below the earth. This is the beauty of intelligent design. Now we consider and test refraction. We know from experimentation that water vapor in the air will cause a displacement, but it also causes a magnification. Take a container of water, and place it near the observer, and place an object behind it. Play around with the setup and you will see, with your own eyes, the object appear to set below a flat counter. Here is a demonstration you can try at home.
This guy goes a bit further and finds a humid warehouse to do the experiment and effectively causes a sunset without liquid water and some distance.
"Traditionally evolution does stem from the big bang theory but the idea behind natural selection can still exist without the big bang."
As far as adaptation, where a species of animal starts developing longer necks to reach higher food, that is plausible. As far as a dog giving birth to a cat, or speciation, there is no evidence for it.
"The formation of life remains a mystery, and I think that scientist's need for closure has gotten the best of them, so I'm not sure what the creation story is. As for heaven, I have never seen anything in the sky that could look like heaven. Is heaven what most consider stars in the sky?"
Not exactly, but let's refer to heaven, in this context, as the firmament. See my post in the first page of this debate:
https://www.debateisland.com/discussion/1730/is-space-fake/p1
Scientific method: noun; a method of procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses.
The highest form of ignorance is when you reject something you don't know anything about.
Wayne Dyer
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That explanation for the sun makes sense. The sun itself could be an inferior mirage:
http://apollo.lsc.vsc.edu/classes/met130/notes/chapter19/infer_mirage.html
Inferior mirages are made when light passes through different layers of air (such as the atmosphere in this case), which would make perfect sense in this case. I looked at your other ideas in the "is space fake" debate and they all seem good.
"As far as adaptation, where a species of animal starts developing longer necks to reach higher food, that is plausible. As far as a dog giving birth to a cat, or speciation, there is no evidence for it."
There is. Let's look at some other examples of mutation:
This is an image of the world's tallest living man next to the world's shortest living man. Evolution is a process of random mutation (for good and for bad) and natural selection. The individuals who are best adapted to their environments survive. You even imply that mutation can happen in small instances. I never said that a dog could give birth to a cat. Theoretically that could be possible while extremely unlikely, but evolution is a very slow process, taking thousands of years. Sure, in one generation the most it could probably do is make a giraffe's neck longer, but over many generations the giraffe could change a lot. We have seen similar instances of this happening in real life. People did an experiment with foxes and artificially bred them by picking the ones that were the least aggressive to pass on their genes. A few or less generations later all of the foxes had droopy ears (like some bred dogs do) and none were aggressive. If this were beneficial to an animal's survival it again wouldn't happen overnight. Artificial selection happens much faster than natural selection does.
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The use of your example of artificially bred foxes in your conclusion that Evolution can and or does happen undermines your conclusion entirely. A generation of foxes with droopy ears rather than pointed or rigid ears is no evidence in the slightest of evolution, at best it's adaptation and relatively speaking...incredibly small to scale.
The need or lack thereof pointed ears can indeed result in adaptations affecting the ears of certain species of animals, particularly if those animals naturally depend on hearing for survival. Indeed future generations could spawn with more droopy or even more rigid ears depending on the environmental effects they're subjected to. This however, does not support in any way, shape or form an evolutionary change of kinds. The original fox with rigid ears could be stood next to the 10th generation fox with droopy ears and you wouldn't have two different species, you'd have differently adapted animals of the same species. This does not represent a change of kinds nor would the rigid ear fox serve as a transitional specimen.
"There's going to be a special place in Hell for people who spread lies through the veil of logical fallacies disguised as rational argument".
"Oh, you don't like my sarcasm? Well I don't much appreciate your stup!d".
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"The bible was inspired by God, not dictated, so depending on the author, their audience, their political flavor etc, ...... all that influenced how & what they wrote. I imagine they tried their best to say what God wanted them to, but they were for the most part, not the most studied people with regards of later authors/historians as we know. the message was more important than being precise re some incidentals they may have gotten wrong. As far a credibility goes, as stated b4, the authors' job was to relay what was important in God's view, not where a city was exactly, if you catch my drift. & God's message was re His plan & our spiritual life."
"My question to you is, why could God not have used evolution to get mankind to a certain ...... maturity so-to-speak? He then may have infused man with a soul to make him special & in His image. Would the ancient authors want to write about something they could not possibly fathom?
"I think God's inspired words were delivered with relation to the times, & literal comprehension. There is nothing in the OT to say otherwise. An Adam & Eve is certainly something they could have understood. the message for that entire story was how sin/evil entered this world, & how serious God treated sin."
Did Jesus even exist? I have seen no records of his existence in any way other than in religious texts.
I call the bible fallible because he advocates the golden rule while at the same time hypocritically doing the opposite with the appendix.
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https://www.biblestudytools.com/kjv/2-thessalonians/2-11.html
Scientific method: noun; a method of procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses.
The highest form of ignorance is when you reject something you don't know anything about.
Wayne Dyer
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Could you then explain to me which denomination of Christianity you are so that we can be on the same page with your beliefs? I apologize if you think that I'm creating a Strawman of your ideas I'm not trying.
"No, there is no burden of proof on me for that. That's just like me asking you to prove loyalty. If that were possible, then we'd all follow that SOP to determine who is loyal or not. What one needs to believe in things that require faith, like God, love, loyalty & many other daily aspects of life that we consider as 100% certain, but in reality they are only considered that bc of the faith we possess in them for reliability. So we have faith in them bc of the evidence we have been presented with b4 we start having faith that we can believe they are true."
Theoretically the burden of proof wouldn't be on you. It wouldn't be on anyone. However, in the same way that Steven Crowder for instance makes "Change my mind" videos where the burden of proof is on the people sitting down to argue, I created this discussion to have the burden of proof on my opposition because I find that the arguments become irrational when the burden is shifted.
The idea that God wants belief in faith and not in proof is suspicious. I understand how (at least) the Catholic church works. It draws people into their doctrine through bribery and then indoctrinates the followers. You get exposed to the idea of god so much that you start believing in it without any evidence. Children get forced into the doctrine young before their age of reason. That's what happened to me. It's how the church survives. It doesn't want belief in proof because if it did the church would fall apart. No one ever gives any evidence for god in masses because they don't want followers thinking critically about their beliefs.
"I'm not here to preach or even convince anyone there is God that chooses not to believe. That's your business. My position is to argue from the standpoint that taking things out of context, or a purely literal interpretation of the bible in all aspects can only lead to incorrect assumptions about God ..... such as what you have presented."
This is what I am looking for however. I have strived to think as critically as I can an want to know the truth. I want to have correct beliefs because they will in turn give me correct actions besed on those beliefs. That's why anyone has beliefs.
You have helped me in this rebuttal understand your position a bit, and thank you for that. I hope to read the entire bible in the future as I have not read much to understand the ideas because even though I don't think that god exists I think that it's produced some of the best philosophical ideas in history, such as the golden rule which I believe we should all adhere to.
"That's the problem with assuming things. Measurements need to be precise, overall messages for the ages need to be understood ..... for the ages."
However we understand that people have all sorts of biases and are quite fallible, so we can not have a clear message of what actually happened which is one of my problems with christian apologists. I disprove one thing and they make the excuse that their interpretation was not the correct one. The political biases could be as bad as when people portrayed the George Zimmerman case as a white man shooting a black man while in actuality it was a Hispanic man getting brutally beaten so he pulled out his gun and shot the attacking black man out of self defense. The consequences of this twisting of the story were massive.
"I stated b4, that when humans became mature or reason or whatever enough ...... Other animals evidently never reached that point."
That statement can never be proven or disproved, so I'll ignore it. That doesn't mean the I concede however.
I don't believe that sin exists, I'm just explaining how what people think of as sin works. It's all about practicality. Sure my idea would indicate selfishness, but it's a way to be (ironically) selfishly unselfish. This is just naturally how we evolved. It is in our subconscious.
"Please google secular historians/writers that have written about Jesus & His movement."
Such as these?
https://www.indy100.com/article/historians-are-questioning-if-jesus-ever-existed-at-all-7801396
Sure. The golden rule is to treat others the way you want to be treated. No one would want an organ placed in their bodies that could potentially have life threatening effects. God still has put these organs in our bodies though. Therefore, he goes against the golden rule. He advocates the golden rule through the ten commandments. Therefore, he is a hypocrite. The point here is that let's just say that god exists for a second. If god is killing many people every year with this likely intentionally placed organ, then should he deserve to be loved? Should he deserve to even be believed in? Especially considering that Christianity is a doctrine that often demands that you believe in.
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The artificial selection of the foxes not only changed the ears, but also the aggressive behavior, which was what I was trying to say. Maybe I wasn't clear on that. This is a huge difference. Adaptation is evolution actually, because evolution and adaptation are both based on the idea that animals will change according to their environment to best survive in it. With this example the dogs wouldn't be two different species yet, however with enough changes they would. Neanderthals look quite similar to us and we consider us and them two different species. It all depends on what constitutes different species, which is up for debate, but I'm sure that we can agree that us and a virus are two different species, which both have their common ancestor at probably around 1-3 billion years ago, lots of time to change from a microbe to us. Remember, I'm not saying that natural selection goes at the same rate as artificial selection, not even close. However, over dozens if not hundreds of generations you will see a change in species, sometimes becoming different species in the process.
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I don't think that the dome that surrounds the earth would be the heavens. I do think that there is probably something keeping us from space, but not the heavens.
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Scientific method: noun; a method of procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses.
The highest form of ignorance is when you reject something you don't know anything about.
Wayne Dyer
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Scientific method: noun; a method of procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses.
The highest form of ignorance is when you reject something you don't know anything about.
Wayne Dyer
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I hope to read the entire bible in the future as I have not read much to understand the ideas because even though I don't think that god exists I think that it's produced some of the best philosophical ideas in history, such as the golden rule which I believe we should all adhere to.
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Scientific method: noun; a method of procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses.
The highest form of ignorance is when you reject something you don't know anything about.
Wayne Dyer
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Evidence
I do agree that the bible has some amazing philosophical ideas in it. I used to believe in that theory of how the moon was formed, but now I have realized that because flat earth theory is most likely correct, and now I believe it to be, that the moon must have been formed another way.
Yes, maybe it was created? Or maybe it just evolved?
Since we can't use the Bible because it was written by man, I guess the only way of knowing is landing on it and observing it first hand!?
Wait, you're 14years old?
What's your IQ if I may ask?
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@poco
Of course we don't mind, the more the merrier, it is how I learned so much, debating is where it's at! Come on buddy, join us!
So let's look at some basic addition and subtraction first:
1 + 1 - 1 = 1
1 - 1 + 1 = 1
In both cases I used different orders to complete the equation and both of which resulted in 1. We can do this with any set of numbers. Here is another example:
2 + 4 - 3 = 3
4 - 3 + 2 = 3
This is a basic law of addition. You can rearrange the numbers as long as you don't change the operations attached to them, like you cannot modify the phrase " - 4" But let's see what happens when we use infinity in these equations. We will be using the letter "I" for infinity here.
I + 1 - I = 0
Infinity plus one is still infinity, and then minus itself equals 0. But then:
I - I + 1 = 1
Infinity minus infinity is 0, and then plus 1 is 1. Infinity breaks this law of addition I mentioned, so it cannot exist. But let's say that god is a very high number, so very powerful. My question is how do you get to the conclusion that infinity is conscious?
God is Infinite, not infinity. Infinite is without borders, thus all things are in Infinite/God.
Infinite is Mind/Spirit, we have Infinite as our mind also, given to us, "breathed into the body made of dust" and to prove our mind is Infinite, we test it.
I can think of innumerable numbers of sci-fi BB-universes, and they can all be multiplying and expanding at the same time, yet I know my mind is still Infinite. I could keep putting gazillion expanding universes in my mind, as complex as anyone could make it, yet again my mind remains Infinite. Never runs out of room, because?
Because Infinite is borderless.
I find this easy to see/understand, because I don't visualize my Infinite mind from what we've been taught that's in my brains memory, which is from a finite/created perspective, which is how you started explaining 'Infinite' as infinity, right? Instead I see/understand these things with my Infinite God given mind.
poco - So my next problem is what evidence do you have for all of these claims? Is it the bible?
The Lord is hidden in plain sight in this verse, because understanding is of/by the mind, which is Infinite. The information is another thing, now that is in the brain, in the brains memory. Now that can get overloaded really quick. For some more quicker than for others.
If you're interested, I can give you a good demonstration between Infinite-mind and our brain. Have you ever programmed a robot, .. if you have, you would know how difficult it is, how much information that needs to be put in just for it to keep balance, like what the Honda ASIMO can do, .. hop on one leg and so on, takes millions of lines of info to have ASIMO do what it can do. if you're interested, I can show how this relates to brain vs. the mind.
poco - Because I can give you an example in which the bible was wrong, so how would the bible be credible? If there is one incorrect piece of information in the bible, then there couldn't be an infallible creator to write the bible. So in this case, the christian god couldn't exist.
Just remember this, that we were created in Gods image. So we are "like God, our Creator".
Can God make a mistake?
No.
But here is something else that He has, which we also have, .. empathy.
Genesis 8:20 Then Noah built an altar to the Lord, and took of every clean animal and of every clean bird, and offered burnt offerings on the altar.
21 And the Lord smelled a soothing aroma. Then the Lord said in His heart,
“I will never again curse the ground for man’s sake, although the imagination[a] of man’s heart is evil from his youth;
nor will I again destroy every living thing as I have done.
If it's mentioned, you better believe that it is important! Like it says that "all the books in the world couldn't contain all the things Jesus said", .. so I always wondered why did Mathew, Mark, Luke and John mention the same events? Now I know, just like us parents when either we, or our kids are going on a trip, we tell them over and over regarding their safety, the important things.
poco - We have even seen some evidence pointing away from the idea of creationist intelligent design. For example, let's look at the appendix, a tiny organ on the side of the colon that serves no major purpose. It ruptures in so many people's bodies, it even ruptured in my mother's. Why would an intelligent creator add that to our bodies? And there are many other examples.
Yes, and some people break a leg jumping off from a few steps of stairs. We need everything God put into us, and everything has it's useful purpose. Evolutionist hate Gods creation, which is why they degrade man to an animal, an ape. Why do you think "organ donation" was invented, money for one, and the other is to try to come off as if they were smarter than God, like the six-million-dollar Man, .. we can make him better, stronger, etc. I strongly feel, from all that I've seen and heard with my eyes and ears that there is no need for organ transplant. It's either a lie that you need a transplant, and you get one anyways, just like when they tell you have cancer and need chemo, it's either the cancer that will kill you, or chemo and or radiation treatment.
You have it backwards; it is us who are ignorant and can't fathom, or unable to see lies. The "ancients" even the fisherman and sheepherders would never have fallen for the moon landing, or the globe-earth.
Why not evolution? Because that would take God millions and billions of years longer to achieve, and would NEVER turn out as He wanted it to. We would have millions and millions of horrible mutations dying at all times before evolution could get even one right.
Evolution doesn't happen, and cannot happen, .. even evolutionists admit it.
The rest, I will try to answer later my friend.
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https://www.news-medical.net/news/2007/10/08/30907.aspx
Scientific method: noun; a method of procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses.
The highest form of ignorance is when you reject something you don't know anything about.
Wayne Dyer
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So that proves a flat earth? If we don't know everything, perhaps you're wrong?
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https://www.google.com/amp/s/beyondhorizons.eu/2016/08/03/pic-de-finestrelles-pic-gaspard-ecrins-443-km/amp/
Perhaps I'm wrong, but you've neglected to show how.
Scientific method: noun; a method of procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses.
The highest form of ignorance is when you reject something you don't know anything about.
Wayne Dyer
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For one thing, you could start by stop calling NASA liars
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Scientific method: noun; a method of procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses.
The highest form of ignorance is when you reject something you don't know anything about.
Wayne Dyer
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- cont.
@poco said: Let's look at the idea of creationism, which talks about how every living thing in the world was created exactly as it is, never evolving or changing over time. But this is blatantly wrong if you look at Darwinian evolution. Let's look at the evolution of humans:
Have you ever seen a Great Dane and a miniature poodle? They both started out as dogs, and ended with dogs. Where do you find that: "every living thing in the world was created exactly as it is", .. God loves diversity, ;.. it is Satan that want's us all to be like robots, .. mindless animals, apes.
From every human starting with Adam and Eve is all different, every snow flake, every tree and every leaf on the tree, look around you, the miracle is finding two things identical, not finding things different.
poco - We have found skulls of apes changing into us over millions of years. We have even seen evolution for ourselves. Take a look at the peppered moth, a white moth with black spots. This coloring helped it to camouflage. But in the industrial revolution for about 20 years, there was so much pollution that the trees were covered with soot. The moths turned black, but then when people stopped polluting the air so much, the soot cleared away and the moths turned back to normal.
My brother, if anyone "found skulls of apes changing into us over millions of years", and you can show me this, I will forsake everything I know and believe, and become just another mindless robot, or any animal of your choosing, even an ape.
There is a huge MK-Ultra going on, especially over the past 120 some years,
also this:
Yes, animals, bugs adapt, so do we humans. Like my wife who grew up in 90 - 100% humidity (especially when it rained in the Philippines) adapted to 12% humidity and almost no rain (here in Phoenix).
Yes, .. it explains why Jesus used parables, to keep the Pharisees and Teachers of the Law confused, for they acted all pompous as if they knew it all. So Jesus just threw them into a bit of confusion with parables, which he later explained to his simple fisherman as you said.
Jesus was around "from the beginning of all creation", for it was through him; the Word that God created everything through and by. But you will never find in the Bible that he was God.
God is One, He alone is our Savior, .. through Christ (John 3:16)
Again, Jesus was not God, just as the Fiery Angel in Exodus that God used to talk with Moses was not God. The Christian Religion created by the RCC under Constantine deified the man Jesus into their sun-god;
poco - So I looked into some of your ideas in the debate "is space real?" and I have a question. Can you show me that NASA is wrong about everything because I think that if the government is spending so much money on this, and if no one in half a century in the government has gone out and supported you claim it is most probably wrong.
NASA, starting with "operation Paperclip" took over our government, they don't really ask for funds, (only superficially) they simply take it and fund themselves.
Who says no one in the government sounded the alarm on this NASATANIC organization? If the message in this next video don't reach the depth of your soul
.. and wake you up, only God could through prayers of the saints, those who are still followers of "the Way" (not the Trinitary, or Christian denominations using the same name!)
Space, you know, that imaginary expanding Spacetime Vacuum where all them Tatooine-like planets spin and twirl is a trademark of NASA. They own 'space', just as "They" own Antarctica. If any country wants to go into NASA's imaginary space, they have to follow NASA guidelines, .. instructions like when they should use the Green-screen, and when and how to film in the space-pool to reduce the bubbles that occasionally roll out of the cult uniform they call "Space Suits", .. and so on.
Look at this next video, especially (time 8:35)
MK-Ultra programming us by saying: "NASA having some fierce competition", which leads to the justification of NASA robbing us of more money, which should eventually end our American way of life.
poco - I apologize I haven't gotten the time to watch the video you posted but I will when I get the chance. Also, can you tell me more about the idea of flat earth, mud fossils, and giants? And finally, the idea of god being space intrigues me. Could you show me some websites/videos/books that could help me learn this? That would be great.
Infinite/God is not 'space' instead He is the Ground of being, the Ground of creation. But 'space' is what we call the area between two or more objects in different mediums.
Thank you, and may God bless you with spiritual insight.
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What do you think of my last post to you?
Erfisflat
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Scientific method: noun; a method of procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses.
The highest form of ignorance is when you reject something you don't know anything about.
Wayne Dyer
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Scientific method: noun; a method of procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses.
The highest form of ignorance is when you reject something you don't know anything about.
Wayne Dyer
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I'm actually 13 years old, but I will be turning 14 in 1 month. I'm not sure what my IQ is now, because I was tested when I was 6 and IQ values change depending on your age, but at that time it was according to my parents 132.
@Erfisflat, @Evidence, @Poco, @Judaism:
There has been a mixup here. What everyone was quoting Poco on was my first post by me that Poco was doing a response on. There were a couple as Poco said that were his, but most were mine.
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Have you ever seen a Great Dane and a miniature poodle? They both started out as dogs, and ended with dogs. Where do you find that: "every living thing in the world was created exactly as it is", .. God loves diversity, ;.. it is Satan that want's us all to be like robots, .. mindless animals, apes.
From every human starting with Adam and Eve is all different, every snow flake, every tree and every leaf on the tree, look around you, the miracle is finding two things identical, not finding things different.
poco - We have found skulls of apes changing into us over millions of years. We have even seen evolution for ourselves. Take a look at the peppered moth, a white moth with black spots. This coloring helped it to camouflage. But in the industrial revolution for about 20 years, there was so much pollution that the trees were covered with soot. The moths turned black, but then when people stopped polluting the air so much, the soot cleared away and the moths turned back to normal.
My brother, if anyone "found skulls of apes changing into us over millions of years", and you can show me this, I will forsake everything I know and believe, and become just another mindless robot, or any animal of your choosing, even an ape.
There is a huge MK-Ultra going on, especially over the past 120 some years,
Yes, .. it explains why Jesus used parables, to keep the Pharisees and Teachers of the Law confused, for they acted all pompous as if they knew it all. So Jesus just threw them into a bit of confusion with parables, which he later explained to his simple fisherman as you said.
God is One, He alone is our Savior, .. through Christ (John 3:16)
Again, Jesus was not God, just as the Fiery Angel in Exodus that God used to talk with Moses was not God. The Christian Religion created by the RCC under Constantine deified the man Jesus into their sun-god;
NASA, starting with "operation Paperclip" took over our government, they don't really ask for funds, (only superficially) they simply take it and fund themselves.
Who says no one in the government sounded the alarm on this NASATANIC organization? If the message in this next video don't reach the depth of your soul
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Scientific method: noun; a method of procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses.
The highest form of ignorance is when you reject something you don't know anything about.
Wayne Dyer
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@Judaism
Sorry, I almost missed this post of yours, thanks for reminding me!
After the fall of man, every human born of woman was born into sin, or corruption. Read what happened to Eve, to Adam and to the earth as whole, we are all fallen creatures destined for death.
Now God did provide another "way" back to life, which is through Christ. John 3:16
Remember what Jesus said: "I am the Way, the Truth and the Life, and no one comes to the Father (into Heaven) except through me!", so if you want to 'live', there is a New, incorruptibly body waiting for us all, but where and how you will spend eternity in it is the big question? Choose life my brother, choose life, and it is NOT in your flag that you fly, .. quite the opposite.
Judaism - Again, the shedding of blood was only used for unintentional sins. Therefore, you should believe that Jesus died for your "unintentional sins," because that's the only time a sacrifice was offered.
Hmm, .. unintentional!? So if I lie, steal and cheat, I'm not doing it intentionally? First was eye-for-an-eye, tooth-for-a-tooth, but God seen that if this went on any longer, all of His People would be blind, toothless cripples.
So maybe burning up perfect sheep, or doves, ..paying good money for sacrifices that they can't get anything out of will help them? But no, they made a business out of that too: Here brother, I'll give you a blemished sheep for two perfect doves, .. you can always eat the sheep!
Or it was: "Get your lambs here, two for the price of one where the blemish is barely noticeable after the whitewash! Get your sheep here!"
Mathew 21:12 Jesus entered the temple courts and drove out all who were buying and selling there. He overturned the tables of the money changers and the benches of those selling doves. 13 “It is written,” he said to them, “‘My house will be called a house of prayer,’ but you are making it ‘a den of robbers.
:דֹּבֵ֣ר צֶ֔דֶק מַגִּ֖יד מֵֽישָׁרִֽים
Judaism - You see, followers of Jesus have a problem, their problem is that they don't understand what a brit is. A brit is an oath. Can G-d go back on His oaths? No. Can we? That depends, though we're not suppose to. What's the cut of the brit? The Brit milah (circumcision of the flesh). That was the seal for all eternity. When talking about the covenant, we usually refer to the one with Avraham, Yitzchak and Yaakov. That's the one, not Solomon or whatnot, and those passages I've shown only prove my point, so far, you've been silent on them, they stand correct, they have not been adequately refuted, and I don't think its possible. Now, I'll cite to you one of many passages which clearly prove the Jewish position:
"So said Adonai, Who gives the sun to illuminate by day, the laws of the moon and the stars to illuminate at night, Who stirs up the sea and its waves roar, HaShem of Hosts is His name. If these laws depart from before Me, says Adonai, so will the seed of Israel cease being a nation before Me for all time. So said Adonai: If the heavens above will be measured and the foundations of the earth below will be fathomed, I too will reject all the seed of Israel because of all they did, says the G-d of Israel." (Jeremiah 31:34-36)
Is that what the above scribble says? Why didn't you show that in the first place?
Look, as Jesus said in
Mathew 5:17 “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.
Can a Jew like you (that's if you have undefiled bloodline), or any Israelite fulfill the law? If you break one (which Eve and Adam did) you break them all, which is why all humanity is dying. The problem is, how do we come clean/pure again, back to God? What do Jews of today say about their salvation, or is it "Eat, drink, for tomorrow we die!"
.. because if that's how the Jews of today feel, then what's the purpose of your argument?
Judaism - Evidence, you seem to believe in the Bible, right? Well, is G-d a ? Because He is if you choose to believe in Jesus, because it is obvious to any person that none of this has yet happened, therefore, G-d hasn't rejected us as a people yet, which explains how He preserved us so well over the centuries against all odds. The reason we were chosen was to be a light to the nations (Isaiah 49:6). You're right, being chosen doesn't mean you're saved, but, like Genesis 4:7, we can work on it.
Galatians 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty by which Christ has made us free, and do not be entangled again with a yoke of bondage. 2 Indeed I, Paul, say to you that if you become circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing. 3 And I testify again to every man who becomes circumcised that he is [b]a debtor to keep the whole law. 4 You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. 5 For we through the Spirit eagerly wait for the hope of righteousness by faith. 6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but faith working through love.
Now honestly my friend, do you think these Jews are "working on it"?
Do you think by putting out their welcome mats, and opening the doors to abomination as the Jews are doing in Israel, especially in cities like Jerusalem mostly known throughout the world for the righteous Jesus teaching there?
Take a look at this, I mean they tell you this is a tranny right? Grew up in Nazareth, Look at (time 0:52) now tell me who else has that very similar look?
But what they don't say is that Gal Gadot is a tranny too.
This is a boy, he even admits it in interviews (if you can read the signs) especially at the Idol-awards. We been fooled, lied to, brainwashed, which includes the biggest lie, Christianity.
I know you're against Christians, but what you, nor Christians know is what exactly is Christian, and which god do they really worship. Look at this video:
Especially (Time 1:30) How would a Believer and a follower of Christ be on one of the biggest pedophile show on television; "Full House", where the Olson Twins were molested right on the show. And how could Kirk Cameron (who by the way may be also a girl) a devout Christian Fundamentalist, approve of her being on that show?
Because they are all Transgender.
You have to look at where a person, or peoples of the nations are heading to see if they are "working on it" or not? And from what I know of Jews, I ask what exactly are they working on?
Why didn't Jerimiah speak out Jesus name? It was hidden from him for obvious reasons. Remember the promise of a Messiah before the Exodus, all the firstborn killed?
Same with when Jesus came, Herod kills all the children.
Mathew 2:6 Then Herod, when he saw that he was deceived by the wise men, was exceedingly angry; and he sent forth and put to death all the male children who were in Bethlehem and in all its districts, from two years old and under, according to the time which he had determined from the wise men. 17 Then was fulfilled what was spoken by Jeremiah the prophet, saying:
18 “A voice was heard in Ramah,
Lamentation, weeping, and great mourning,
Rachel weeping for her children,
Refusing to be comforted,
Because they are no more.”
Mathew 24:36 “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of [f]heaven, but My Father only. 37 But as the days of Noah were, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 38 For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, 39 and did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.
What I meant was that the Kabballah comes off as one explaining what God was trying to say, or do. What He really meant to say. The source is your debate here trying to prove Jesus didn't exist, or at least wasn't who he claimed and shown he was.
Judaism - I;m sorry, but I won't acknowledge you're claim that we don't worship the G-d of Israel, if you think that's the case, I can't help you. You then say that I rely on a bunch of commentaries, I do, because I trust these rabbis were doing their best, but all I ever quoted to you so far, to my memory, was Scripture. You say you can't read or speak in Hebrew - but that's the point, my friend. There is no "better" translation in any language than the original. To know the Bible, one must be required to learn Hebrew. After all, you just admitted, "I agree, if you speak Hebrew, I would loose every time." Yes, you will. Just look at Isaiah 7:14, they say its a virgin, but they don't know the Hebrew, because its really “ha’almah” (הָעַלְמָה)!
Judaism - Just remember what my rabbi taught me about the importance of Hebrew, after all, it is nearly impossible to replicate the grammar structure of Hebrew to English, or any language, meaning, one will produce an entirely different translation than the original. For example, a translation may use many words to describe just one word, or vice-versa; as well as delete and add words to understand a concept. Also, any given word in Hebrew can have many meanings when based on context alone, hence, the impossibility.
If I only knew one language, maybe I would fall for that "impossible to translate into another language", but like I said, I speak three languages, and even though a joke might not come across as intended in one language to the next, the translation still the same.
Judaism - P.S. If you're a "follower of the way," where's your organization? Where do you get your funds from? How many congregants believe in this, or are you only the beginning? I'd like to know where I can further find information on this new sect because I've never heard it before. Thank you.
My organization, ..you can start reading all about it in Mathew, then Mark, Luke and so on. It stated with Jesus picking his 12 Apostles. After his ascension back to Heaven, the Believers referred to themselves as those who followed the Way, or "followers of the Way", and no, it seems I cannot yet convince any Christian, Jew, Muslim or of any Religion to give up their Religion along with their gods, starting with the three, called the Trinity-gods and return to The Way!?
I believe someone from this Forum (or that other Christian Forum I sometime visit) pointed out that there was a Church called the Way, and that they were not trinitarian either. I was all excited, until I contacted them, and had two Ministers come over my house to recruit me. They were not really interested in my opinions, or what I had to show from Scripture, even though they were amazed and would not disagree that what I said was true and proper Bible interpretation, only they were more interested in recruiting me, they said they were already an "established Church for over 70 years and that they were not looking to change any of their Christian Doctrine.
Oh yeah, they gave me their Monthly magazine and told me "this one is free".
So you see, I'm pretty much alone with my little family (Not my siblings, they are hard core Christian, and I won't say any more about that.) So I guess I continue where the Last of the "Followers of the Way" something like 1,700 years ago left off! The rest of my Congregation is waiting for me in Heaven, but I hope to at least start the True Way back to God, outside of Organized Religion.
Are you interested?
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I'm not entirely sure who to attribute this quote to, but I do have an issue with this. Using "reliable scholarly peer reviewed data" is fine and all, but if that data is somehow compromised, and I post a video on the internet explaining how that data is wrong with verifiable, empirical experimentation, why would any research paper be any more valid than this?
Scientific method: noun; a method of procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses.
The highest form of ignorance is when you reject something you don't know anything about.
Wayne Dyer
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@poco So none of these posts were from you?
All this information that I carefully put together and answered were not even on your post? So I've been talking to myself?
And you don't look at videos??? How about the pictures, what, you just put a sticky-note on your screen to block you from seeing them?
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Another thing, are you 'poco' or 'Poco'?
Thanks
Evidence.
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I am not speaking for Erfisflat, don't need to, this is just my opinion.
@poco you do realize that scholarly reviewed researched papers have been reviewed with a "Globe earth created by gravity", "we evolved from a rock to amoeba, and from there to ape" and a scholarly understanding that; "there is no God because we didn't see one" mentality, right?
Also, if you don't watch videos, why cite its creators? Who cares who made it? If it reveals the truth with evidence, who cares?
Maybe the person in the video don't want to be identified because they have some inside information from working for NASA or CERN, .. you know, so they wont end up as "pureed" sausage meat at the supermarket!?
What I'm getting at is, we are just now, after 500 years of TPTB putting globes in our schools and over 100 years of "Video/TV MK programming" (which is most likely why you don't watch any of the videos we post, knowing the power it has to convince) that we live on a spinning Globe that is hurling through an expanding Vacuum space, and that NASA landed on the moon many times, only they lost the tens of thousands of pictures and videos taken from there, and us finding out we been lied to just about everything regarding Evolution and space.
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Scientific method: noun; a method of procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses.
The highest form of ignorance is when you reject something you don't know anything about.
Wayne Dyer
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Also, if you don't watch videos, why cite its creators? Who cares who made it? If it reveals the truth with evidence, who cares?"
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"But why would they lie about space? What's the motive/benefit to them?"
We've been tricked into believing, bit by bit, that we came from nothing. That we're just an insignificant speck in an unfathomably large universe. What if this is a special place? What if it was put here just for us? You've asked for proof of God, this is what the OP addresses. We're on a stationary, geocentric, flat earth, and someone is trying to hide this fact from all of us.
Scientific method: noun; a method of procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses.
The highest form of ignorance is when you reject something you don't know anything about.
Wayne Dyer
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I apologize I haven't gotten the time to watch the video you posted but I will when I get the chance. Also, can you tell me more about the idea of flat earth, mud fossils, and giants? And finally, the idea of god being space intrigues me. Could you show me some websites/videos/books that could help me learn this? That would be great.
I want to thank you for having this discussion and I look forward to hearing what you have to say about the information I brought up because I think this is going to be a very interesting discussion.
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I believe someone from this Forum (or that other Christian Forum I sometime visit) pointed out that there was a Church called the Way, and that they were not trinitarian either. I was all excited, until I contacted them, and had two Ministers come over my house to recruit me. They were not really interested in my opinions, or what I had to show from Scripture, even though they were amazed and would not disagree that what I said was true and proper Bible interpretation, only they were more interested in recruiting me, they said they were already an "established Church for over 70 years and that they were not looking to change any of their Christian Doctrine.
Oh yeah, they gave me their Monthly magazine and told me "this one is free".
So you see, I'm pretty much alone with my little family (Not my siblings, they are hard core Christian, and I won't say any more about that.) So I guess I continue where the Last of the "Followers of the Way" something like 1,700 years ago left off! The rest of my Congregation is waiting for me in Heaven, but I hope to at least start the True Way back to God, outside of Organized Religion."
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  Sources: 0  
  Relevant (Beta): 80%  
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http://www.scs.stanford.edu/~dm/home/papers/remove.pdf
https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2014/nov/25/journal-accepts-paper-requesting-removal-from-mailing-list
Scientific method: noun; a method of procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses.
The highest form of ignorance is when you reject something you don't know anything about.
Wayne Dyer
  Considerate: 88%  
  Substantial: 61%  
  Spelling & Grammar: 89%  
  Sentiment: Positive  
  Avg. Grade Level: 7.56  
  Sources: 2  
  Relevant (Beta): 37%  
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  Considerate: 93%  
  Substantial: 7%  
  Spelling & Grammar: 100%  
  Sentiment: Neutral  
  Avg. Grade Level: 4.22  
  Sources: 1  
  Relevant (Beta): 88%  
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