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I don't want to waste my time convincing someone who is not open minded to my views so all I am going to say is there is no reason why someone should have the right to owning a gun. No reason. Put it in the hands of the law enforcers. If you don't trust them, then that is a bigger issue in and of itself.
I would understand your argument if you had at least a decent reason why we shouldn't make owning guns illegal but so far all i've heard from you is oh they're killing a bunch of people but not that many and it is our right and you can't take it away.
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If the government is killing innocent people, citizens easily have the power to impeach the president, and make a change. Changing the phycology and mental state of all American citizens isn't so much. Plus come on, you cant compare government causing casualties vs citizens. How many citizens and gang wars are larger scale and happen more often then wars? Come on man.
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"you have any better ideas? Do you want to give it to your little brother? "
Ya, leave responsible gun owners alone. My little brother is one of them, he's 37 and has never harmed a fly, is a store manager at a local building supply, and has just purchased a house. He's actually a perfect candidate, not only to protect his new property, but his wife as well.
"If the government is killing innocent people, citizens easily have the power to impeach the president, and make a change."
That's a false statement. What did the citizens do about Hitler? Mao, Stalin, etc. All of these country leaders killed innocent, unarmed citizens, and they couldn't just "impeach" them. Your statement is not logical.
"Changing the phycology and mental state of all American citizens isn't so much. Plus come on, you cant compare government causing casualties vs citizens. How many citizens and gang wars are larger scale and happen more often then wars? Come on man."
You may have to reword this part, I don't follow, the statements seem incoherent, I could be wrong, I did smoke a bud a while ago.
Scientific method: noun; a method of procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses.
The highest form of ignorance is when you reject something you don't know anything about.
Wayne Dyer
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there are numerous reasons, I'm not sure why you don't know them already
hunting, sport shooting, protection, collecting, but I don't need to give a reason because of the constitution, which isn't the case in other countries that have to prove they have a reason. Besides I don't have the burden of proof here, those who agree with the topic do.
if you think the U.S. should make owning guns illegal the only thing you have said is you don't want teachers to have them in school.
"I don't want to waste my time convincing someone who is not open minded to my views so all I am going to say is there is no reason why someone should have the right to owning a gun. No reason. "
is that the sort of "decent reason " you are talking about?
Oh Lord, please don't let me be misunderstood"
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But may as well legalize weed and cocaine and the purge may as well be a thing in that case lol. I still see no reason they should exist, its just a dangerous thing to legalize for fun you know? There are many other ways to have fun. Or, would you accept illegal ownership of guns, but there are areas for hunting and sport shooting? That way people from both sides of the argument meet in the middle and it satisfies us both?
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What would making guns illegal look like?
How would you get rid of them and what would you to do those who don't comply?
Are you aware of the police protests over the people they have killed?
How do you explain the states with very lax gun laws and very low murder rates?
54% of US counties in 2014 had zero murders
https://crimeresearch.org/2017/04/number-murders-county-54-us-counties-2014-zero-murders-69-1-murder/Breaking down the most dangerous counties in Figure 2 shows over half the murders occur in just 2% of the counties, 37% in just the worst 1% of the counties.
so over half of the counties in all of the U.S. had no murders, if guns are the problem how can that be possible? The number of guns is going up but murders are going down, doesn't seem logical does it.
When you look at individual counties with a high number of murders, you find large areas with few murders. Take Los Angeles County, with 526 murders in 2014, the most of any county in the US. The county has virtually no murders in the northwestern part of the county. There was only one murder each in Beverly Hills, Hawthorne, and Van Nuys. Clearly, different parts of the county face very different risks of murder.
Oh Lord, please don't let me be misunderstood"
The Animals
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Remarkably you print off a list that's truly staggering with the amount of deaths on it and you're delighted that there is a slight decline in the rates , incidentally i dispute that
You claimed yesterday New York has achieved startling reductions through good policing so your theory's seems to be that police should waste time and resources stoping people with guns from comitting crime , now sorry my friend that's just insane.
The figures for New York are fabricated as i proved , in my country zero gun deaths , zero accidents why ? Because guns are not permitted no guns no gun deaths , pretty obvious really isn't it .
Even our police don't carry guns .
Americans seem to take pride in the fact that they have the highest rate of mass shootings in the world children getting shot at school and it’s not a problem , what sort of a sick society needs security guards at school and actually thinks arming teachers is a “ brilliant strategy “?
Here is the rest of the Wiki list you left out Gun violence in the United States results in tens of thousands of deaths and injuries annually.[1] In 2013, there were 73,505 nonfatal firearm injuries (23.2 injuries per 100,000 persons),[2][3]and 33,636 deaths due to "injury by firearms" (10.6 deaths per 100,000 persons).[4] These deaths consisted of 11,208 homicides,[5] 21,175 suicides,[4]505 deaths due to accidental or negligent discharge of a firearm, and 281 deaths due to firearms use with "undetermined intent".[4] The ownership and control of guns are among the most widely debated issues in the country.
In 2012, there were 8,855 total firearm-related homicides in the US, with 6,371 of those attributed to handguns.[6] In 2012, 64% of all gun-related deaths in the U.S. were suicides.[7] In 2010, there were 19,392 firearm-related suicides, and 11,078 firearm-related homicides in the U.S.[8] In 2010, 358 murders were reported involving a rifle while 6,009 were reported involving a handgun; another 1,939 were reported with an unspecified type of firearm.[9]
Firearms were used to kill 13,286 people in the U.S. in 2015, excluding suicide.[10] Approximately 1.4 million people have been killed using firearms in the U.S. between 1968 and 2011. This number includes all deaths resulting from a firearm, including suicides, homicides, and accidents.[10]
Compared to 22 other high-income nations, the U.S. gun-related murder rate is 25 times higher.[11] Although it has half the population of the other 22 nations combined, the U.S. had 82 percent of all gun deaths, 90 percent of all women killed with guns, 91 percent of children under 14 and 92 percent of young people between ages 15 and 24 killed with guns.[11]
Gun violence is most common in poor urban areas and frequently associated with gang violence, often involving male juveniles or young adult males.[12][13]Although mass shootings have been covered extensively in the media, mass shootings in the US account for a small fraction of gun-related deaths[14] and the frequency of these events steadily declined between 1994 and 2007, rising between 2007 and 2013.[15][16]
Legislation at the federal, state, and local levels has attempted to address gun violence through a variety of methods, including restricting firearms purchases by youths and other "at-risk" populations, setting waiting periods for firearm purchases, establishing gun buyback programs, law enforcement and policing strategies, stiff sentencing of gun law violators, education programs for parents and children, and community-outreach programs. Despite widespread concern about the impacts of gun violence on public health, Congress has prohibited the Centers for Disease Control (CDC) from conducting research that advocates in favor of gun control.[17] The CDC has interpreted this ban to extend to all research on gun violence prevention, and so has not funded any research on this subject since 1996.[18]
What a
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So look I proposed a solution and you totally ignored it. If you think us owning guns is not a problem at all, what do you think we should do to reduce gun related incidents? Don't bring up the NYC solution because the reason why stop and frisk doesn't and can't exist today is because it caused racial profiling. More black individuals were searched than there were black people in the city.
To me, its more than just crime. I don't feel comfortable seeing people casually walking into Walmart with 2 guns strapped to them. Makes the US look like a F***ing joke. Are people so insecure that they need to carry guns everywhere they go? Or even in their house. Buy a better security system. Can't afford it? Get a job and move to a city/neighborhood where you are safe.
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Secondly, why should I have to depend on the boys in blue to defend me? What happens if the boys in blue are turned against me, which is a valid point you still have not adressed from above? At my house, we have a dog, and a shotgun. If someone is breaking in my house or trying to harm my family, the 10-15 minutes we have to wait for the boys in blue to show up could mean the life of my 2 week old daughter.
To you, a man with two guns may look like a joke, but to a criminal, he's not one to be f_cked with... Guaranteed if a mass shooter was in Walmart, he'd think twice about opening fire if he saw the man with two pistols on his side first.
Scientific method: noun; a method of procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses.
The highest form of ignorance is when you reject something you don't know anything about.
Wayne Dyer
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yes guns are fun, but you conveniently left out the protection part, some people hunt to provide food for their families, context matters.
Guns are already legal, you aren't making any sense.
When seconds count the police are only minutes away, think about it.
I guess you've forgotten the guy with the AK who shot all those people on the beach
how about the Cumbria Shootings?
Toronto shooting
correlation does not imply causation.
A gilded cage is very safe, perhaps go back and actually do some work and read what has already been written. I have no desire to go round and round with you because you have read all the posts. You "feel" I don't care about your feelings neither do facts.
What's the top 2 preventable cause of death in the U.S.? Here's a hint one kills 480,000 per year.
Oh Lord, please don't let me be misunderstood"
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they are just going to ignore the facts presented to them, that has been the case all a long. They ignore and can't explain why one of the states that has the loosest laws has the lowest murder rate, while the state with very strict laws has the most murder rates. I'm pretty much done with this, they can't dispute anything I have said, they don't even try, they just regurgitate the same stuff and express their feelings boohoo. By there logic because so many people are killed by car accidents, cars should be banned and everyone should be forced to take public transit. Yes we should do more to combat crime and we can. Like enforce laws and not give bail to people running terrorist camps in Texas.
this site was good for a short while but given the level of discourse, the inability and no attempt to address my points, challenges and proof just isn't worth my time. I'll probably go back to debateart.com at least there if someone thinks I am wrong they will try to explain it rather than telling me about their feelings and reposting the same crap I've already torn apart. These A.D.D. keyboard warriors have short and limited entertainment value.
Oh Lord, please don't let me be misunderstood"
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What is an acceptable number of murders, if I can reduce the number of murders by around 2/3rds to 4100, would that be acceptable?
Oh Lord, please don't let me be misunderstood"
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which country to you live in?
Oh Lord, please don't let me be misunderstood"
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2. If you can afford a gun and ammo, you can afford a better security system. No need for the gun. Am i wrong?
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Stats show trends that's really about all you can say about them in this context, because they can be manipulated and can be affected by many factors not directly related, known and unknow.
Oh Lord, please don't let me be misunderstood"
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I understand your point of view, guns=bad yet you have not offered any proof removing them would have any statistical reduction in murders more than what we are already seeing. If you think people should just accept your word for it, you are in the wrong place I'm afraid. At least Joseph tried to show some proof.
Oh Lord, please don't let me be misunderstood"
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Oh Lord, please don't let me be misunderstood"
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I’m not playing that game , let’s just say I’m European but with dual citizenship
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Such a place would be extremely important to examine to see how they have done this. What a wondrous and Utopian place this must be, why not share this miracle with the rest of us? I could very well change my whole stance if I can learn how they have made such an epic achievement.
Oh Lord, please don't let me be misunderstood"
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Such a place would be extremely important to examine to see how they have done this. What a wondrous and Utopian place this must be, why not share this miracle with the rest of us?
My reply .... So you admit a gun free society and one free of gun crime is miraculous and Utopian , yet you keep stating its not a problem ?
Ouch , you’ve just admitted how dysfunctional America is
**
I could very well change my whole stance if I can learn how they have made such an epic achievement.**
No you couldn’t as you deny such society’s can even exist
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My bottom line is this, I am trying to reason with you but you are not listening to me. Let me ask you this. If banning guns isn't a good solution, then what will be? Remaining how the laws and what were doing today clearly isnt working, so what would be your suggestion?
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Oh Lord, please don't let me be misunderstood"
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Talking about a solution is a different topic all together, I've already explained this to you, please make a thread about it and we can have a nice fruitful conversation about it i think. In this particular thread and topic the burden of proof lyes on those who believe the U.S. should make owning guns illegal. I'd very much enjoy discussing possible ways murder can be reduced, but that requires it's own thread, this one is becoming hijacked as they say.
I believe there are many things the U.S. can and should have done long ago to combat the crime/murder rate, but alas that's a different subject.
Oh Lord, please don't let me be misunderstood"
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But you claim that any country without gun crime is Utopia yet you say there’s no problem in the US with guns or gun accidents , crimes or suicides , so you admit it it guns should be banned in the US as you did say countries without gun crimes are Utopia or are you denying this now ?
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You keep saying you destroyed my arguments , but haven’t because you cannot .
You admit countries without gun deaths , accidents and suicides are “ Utopian “ bit of a Freudian slip there on your part or do you wish to deny you stated this as well ?
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Oh Lord, please don't let me be misunderstood"
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Oh Lord, please don't let me be misunderstood"
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Provide me a country that has no guns and no murders (3rd time I've asked)
@Joeseph said " in my country zero gun deaths , zero accidents why ? Because guns are not permitted no guns no gun deaths , pretty obvious really isn't it ."
if you can't prove it then you are wrong and it's not true plain and simple, you made that statement and I'm calling b.s. on it.
Oh Lord, please don't let me be misunderstood"
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very well, even though you have not once answered any question I have asked of you, or addressed any challenge or point I poised to you, I shall go back and read all your posts
first post of your was on Aug 23 I shall paraphrase to make it manageable, if you believe I have taken what you said out of context lmk and I'll address it.
1 you believe banning guns out weighs any negatives and is for the greater good, you mention other countries and then talk about teachers.
2 next post is you talk about other countries again, you ask me to convince you, though the burden is not mine to do so, then you tell me how you feel angry and bring up schools again
3 you explain why you use teachers and talk about big business
4 you admit that NYC had some success but were doubtful it could work else where. you ask me to justify having a gun, again the burden is not mine
5 you attempt to force me to justify again, you feel I'm selfish, still not my burden
6 you ask if there are alternative solutions
7 talk about drugs and, see no reason guns should exist, its just a dangerous thing to legalize for fun
8 this is an ask for justification again, and more feelings
9 security system instead of a gun
10 an ask for alternative solution
11 emotional post
12 very cool truck I wish I could afford, security, some stats on odds of being robbed
13 claim that Joseph has done all the work so nothing more can be added, an ask again for alternative solutions
14 asking for alternatives
I have explained this several times. If you believe the U.S. should make owning guns illegal then you must prove it. I don't have to justify or offer any alternatives. If you are making that claim then you are trying to change what is legal and if you are going to make or support such a claim you must have proof to back that up. Of all your posts you have not done so, you've expressed your feelings and touched on some things tangent or irrelevant to the issue. I have listened to you, you haven't really said anything. Not once have you answered a question I have asked you. Not once have you provided context or proof of your claims. Yet you accuse me of not listening to you.......hhmmm want to rethink that?
Oh Lord, please don't let me be misunderstood"
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The latest figures put the total number of Law Enforcement Officers in the U.S. at 421, 459 while the total population of the U.S. is somewhere around 325.7 Million people. So that's about one police officer for every 772 U.S. Citizens. Average U.S. police response time is Seven minutes but can be higher depending on your location as well as other factors. So assuming that we're talking about the result of all Citizens being defenseless against a Criminal armed with a Gun...what do we do against an armed Criminal wielding a Firearm when we have none ourselves and our protectors are an average of seven minutes out? Adding to the fact that most violent Crimes committed with a firearm are within low income areas (Poor) then we also have to account for the fact that the people that will be the most heavily affected by the Gun ban will be the poor...what do we do about that?
So I'm ready, I'll accept any and all arguments within logic and rationale standards that at least in theory would solve the issue of the resulting void created by a Gun Ban, the void being Criminals still have guns but Citizens are left without any. In return I'll concede that a Gun Ban would be awesome and effective.
"There's going to be a special place in Hell for people who spread lies through the veil of logical fallacies disguised as rational argument".
"Oh, you don't like my sarcasm? Well I don't much appreciate your stup!d".
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You say .......I will gladly admit it when you tell me about one,
My reply ..........No you won't you will totally deny it as you do with all stats as you and your fellow gun nuts claim all comparisons are "unfair "
You say .........I've said that twice now. Why do you have such difficultly understanding what I say?
My reply ............,Oh belive me I understand perfectly what you've said but you know this as you totally ignore anything that doesn't fit your NRA mindset
You say ......
How can I help you understand what I write?
My reply .......... But you don't even know what you're saying half the time as simple concepts and ideas baffle you as in you think spoons should be banned if guns are banned as Americans may murder , maim and threaten each other with .............Dessert spoons
You say .......
What can I do to make it easier for you?
My reply ........It's yourself you need to make things easiier for I can only correct you ,your failure to comprehend is hardly my fault as I cannot uderstand for you that's something you have to do for yourself
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in other words you feel the ban should be done because of the numbers your presented. saying I want is the same as I feel.
Oh Lord, please don't let me be misunderstood"
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since 3d guns will be even easier and better soon, anyone with a machine shop can make one, police and military "loose" or have their weapons stolen, what then? a quick search on youtube or google and you can learn all sorts of different construction methods. With that said, are current laws and penalties adequately enforced? We have a pretty good idea of why murders happen, do you think those "reasons" are being addressed adequately? Gun murders account for about 64% of over all murders, that means there's still a lot of murders happening. I can't wrap my mind around why anyone would care how someone is murdered, in the end a murdered person is dead regardless of the methods. If the reason is addressed and people don't want to murder wouldn't that be better? Removing guns could reduce the portion of murders caused by them, but it won't reduce it to zero as those w/o a gun would just choose a different method. So the over all number would still be pretty high. Removing guns does nothing to address people's desire to kill others or themselves. If you remove or minimize that desire the problem solves itself and would increase over all happiness. Stopping someone from committing suicide is fine and all, but they are still dealing with feelings and we've essentially done nothing to actually help that person, we've just remove one way for them to kill themselves.
Oh Lord, please don't let me be misunderstood"
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ak 47 receiver videos on youtube, it's just bent sheet metal, very easy, guy cast an ar15 lower from melted beer cans and milled the rest to spec, made a brass one out of melted down shell casings. Once alternative materials like resins become strong enough it will just be a matter of pouring a mold and waiting, you can't put the genie back in the bottle.
Oh Lord, please don't let me be misunderstood"
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I don't pretend to know of a way to get all the guns away from criminals nor do I honestly believe that it's possible to prevent them from getting them. I do see that there are a number of people here who think the Ban ought to be in place so for those people...what do we do here? Throw me some ideas.
"There's going to be a special place in Hell for people who spread lies through the veil of logical fallacies disguised as rational argument".
"Oh, you don't like my sarcasm? Well I don't much appreciate your stup!d".
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Check the news, realize that people like you wanting guns for "fun" are the reason stuff like this is happening in Jacksonville.
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Its always interesting to hear Americans worrying about criminals having guns and why it worries them so much, a lot of European countries do not permit their citizens to carry guns yet criminals have them illegally and use them mainly on other criminals , do you assume criminals are going to start targeting the ordinary Joe if guns were illegal ?
I think the whole gun argument is cultural Europeans cannot comprehend the reasoning behind Americans constant denial of a problem with the issue , yet the idea of cirizens carrying guns is terrifying to us
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Oh Lord, please don't let me be misunderstood"
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I have been attacked exactly once in my life, and the police was nowhere to be found. The reality of the world is that you are very unlikely get attacked at the central square with police officers walking around; the criminals are not fools and they will attack people in a dark corner where there is no help to be found. What the police really provides is retaliative tools, as well as saving people from static situations such as being taken a hostage - but police cannot do anything about actually preventing immediate violence.
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