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Post Argument Now Debate Details +
Arguments
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  Entity Sentiment Detection: notion of punishment    second question   universe   title fit  
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  Considerate: 93%  
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You say ......Are you asking if the universe is deterministic?
My reply .....I’m asking what people like you and others think so maybe a dialogue can take place
You say ......That is what I understand from your second question... And how does the notion of punishment in the title fit in this?
My reply .....Well if the nature of the Universe is indeed deterministic each and every one of us in in the grip of rigid and inexorable laws , so are not free.......therefore why punish them for “ crimes” if everything is preordained?
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  Avg. Grade Level: 6.6  
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  Entity Sentiment Detection: notion of punishment    title fit   reply   second question  
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So, even if quantum mechanics says that the Universe is essentially a large random number generator and local hidden variables governing the product of the generator cannot be established, it is still better to assume that there are global hidden variables taking care of the generator's work. This is the only way to reconcile quantum mechanics with other branches of physics, science in general, philosophy and logic.
As for the punishment question, I will go with Milton Friedman's half-joking statement: "Nobody deserves anything". "Deserve" is a human concept which does not reflect the objective reality. In addition, punishment is pretty useless: you do not teach anyone anything by punishing them for something they have already done. Rehabilitation, on the other hand, is productive: if your goal is to discourage someone from repeating the same mistake they made in the future, then you should make them understand why this is a mistake and how to avoid it. Otherwise, if we are to punish people for things they do that they did not know were wrong at the time, then we accomplish nothing other than create the fear of uncertainty in the society, as people can never know what they will be punished for tomorrow.
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If determinism applies to everything in the Universe do you believe it applies to our actions?
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  Entity Sentiment Detection: determinism    Universe   actions    
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Do we ever deserve to be punished? Yes, some more so than others.
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Absolutely. The chemical reactions in our bodies define how we act completely, and the ability to make choices is an illusion, because every choice is already predetermined. Even the fact that I wrote this comment was already predetermined in the past.
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I agree , each and every one of us is in the grip of rigid and inexorable natural laws , the illusion of free will for most is comforting
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  Entity Sentiment Detection: inexorable natural laws    illusion of free will   grip   nbsp  
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Does the state of the Universe at any particular moment in time plus the laws of nature , together necessitate what will happen in the future?
The state of the universe is in constant flux. So even combined with the laws of nature in one particular moment I don't believe that it will necessarily determine the future.
As for your other question absolutely s person should be punished if that person does something in contrary to the laws of a civalized society.
The laws of nature can be punitive.
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  Entity Sentiment Detection: particular moment    laws of nature   s person   state of the Universe  
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You say ....
The state of the universe is in constant flux. So even combined with the laws of nature in one particular moment I don't believe that it will necessarily determine the future.
My reply ....Well if our actions are not determined and they are in a state of constant flux as in we are part of the Universe that’s in constant flux how then are we responsible for our actions?
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  Entity Sentiment Detection: particular moment    laws of nature   constant flux   state of the universe  
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Just because the universe is in constant flux does not stop natural consequences from occurring. Nor does it negate personal responsibility for ones actions.
I just don"t see any proof that our actions are predetermined. I think by claiming that your actions are predetermined is a phylosophy to allows are person to say "it's not my fault it's the universes" or "i was prdetermined to do it".
It would be nice if I could blame all my bad choices in life on pre-determination but I can't and i could not except that excuse from anyone else.
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You say ......
Just because the universe is in constant flux does not stop natural consequences from occurring.
My reply .....If the Universe is in constant flux so are we how can we be responsible for something we have no control over ?
You say ..... Nor does it negate personal responsibility for ones actions.
My reply ....Why not if we have no control over them?
You say .......I just don"t see any proof that our actions are predetermined.
My reply .....Did you pick your parents? Your environment? Your genetics? How can you be in any way responsible for how you are if you had no choice in the matter?
You say .....I think by claiming that your actions are predetermined is a phylosophy to allows are person to say "it's not my fault it's the universes" or "i was prdetermined to do it".
My reply .....What’s wring with stating a truth? The Universe is governed by the laws of nature we fall under those laws
You say .....It would be nice if I could blame all my bad choices in life on pre-determination but I can't and i could not except that excuse from anyone else.
My reply ....That’s your choice you believe you have free will while I believe such a thing is illusory
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  Considerate: 93%  
  Substantial: 100%  
  Spelling & Grammar: 96%  
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@ZeusAres42
My question had a bit tagged on underneath the heading regarding what I’m getting at ........
If the nature of the Universe is deterministic each and every one of us in in the grip of rigid and inexorable laws , so are not free.......therefore why punish them for “ crimes” if everything is preordained?
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  Entity Sentiment Detection: nature of the Universe    inexorable laws   question   bit  
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I understand that. The point I am trying to make is that even if our universe is deterministic that still doesn't change the fact that we humans have the freedom of choice to be able to make decisions albeit that freedom of choice would have also been predetermined if that make sense? The will may not be exactly free but the man is.
With that being said, I also generally ascribe to the idea that the universe is deterministically indeterministic.
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  Entity Sentiment Detection: make sense    freedom of choice   nature of the Universe   point  
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Also, predestination does it necessarily mean no free will.
I think punishment is arbitrary without moral constants(good and Bad) There is no moral constants without God.
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  Entity Sentiment Detection: whole life    free will   moral constants   choices  
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You say .....I understand that. The point I am trying to make is that even if our universe is deterministic that still doesn't change the fact that we humans have the freedom of choice to be able to make decisions albeit that freedom of choice would have also been predetermined if that make sense
My reply .....If each and every one of us is in the grip of inexorable natural laws that includes the particles out of which we are made how can they and we do anything other than what they in fact do?
You say ..... The will may not be exactly free but the man is.
My reply ....If the will is not free then you agree we have no free will , what do you mean “the man is”?
You say .....With that being said, I also generally ascribe to the idea that the universe is deterministically indeterministic.
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  Entity Sentiment Detection: free will    freedom of choice   senseMy reply   grip of inexorable natural laws  
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You say .....Do you feel that you have no control over your decisions?
My reply ....I feel I’d but I think it’s illusory
You say .....This may seem odd.. Is it not obvious that you have been making choices your whole life?
My reply .....We make choices but it seems they are predetermined
You say .....Also, predestination does it necessarily mean no free will.
My reply .....I don’t believe in god
You say ......I think punishment is arbitrary without moral constants(good and Bad) There is no moral constants without God.
My reply .....We have the law of the land which is used to dish out punishment.Which god makes moral constants?
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  Entity Sentiment Detection: whole life    free will   reply   law of the land  
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I agee with you that we start out not in control of our lives or living situations. As we grow and mature, barring any mental health is a issues not allowing for reasonable thought, inevitably the choices we make are what determines how our life turns out.
I do believe that you are born with certain personality traits that even with the most ideal molding won't change those traits. So in a way you could say they are predetermined.
It still does not change the fact that each person makes decisions in their lives that determines whether or not they break laws that requires punishment.
If Natural law is really what you want to discus it would help to know which theory of Natural Law you prescibe to.
Also would help to know which theory of determination you prescrbe to.
There is not one univeral therory on either. Many of both prescribe to the thought of God or a supreme diety controlling the outcomes. You have already stated you don't believe in God, so which of the therories are you committed to?
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  Entity Sentiment Detection: control of our lives    personality traits   mental health   theory of Natural Law  
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  Considerate: 77%  
  Substantial: 49%  
  Spelling & Grammar: 100%  
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  Avg. Grade Level: 7.9  
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  Entity Sentiment Detection: sin    Jesus   sinner   sins  
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  Considerate: 94%  
  Substantial: 95%  
  Spelling & Grammar: 91%  
  Sentiment: Neutral  
  Avg. Grade Level: 11.32  
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You say .......
My reply ....Yes
You say ......There's no choice to be made. You seem to be simultaneously taking both the position that everything is predetermined and that we control our actions.
My reply .....Choice about what ? Where did I say we control our actions? I’m asking if free will is illusory why is anyone punished for that they had no control over?
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  Entity Sentiment Detection: predeterminedMy reply    line of reasoning   free will   control  
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  Spelling & Grammar: 88%  
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  Avg. Grade Level: 7.08  
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  Entity Sentiment Detection: free will    inexorable laws   control   nbsp  
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You say .....You suggest there's a choice to be made on whether or not to mete out punishment
My reply .....I’m asking the why as in why do they deserve to be punished , how do I know the thoughts of others even if they are predetermined thus the why if indeed it’s decided to punish?
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  Spelling & Grammar: 87%  
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  Entity Sentiment Detection: punishmentMy reply    thoughts of others   Dee   choice  
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You say .....
My reply ......But I do not still know the minds of other even if their decisions are predetermined
You say .......The script is already written. You will punish someone or not punish them, be punished or not be punished, according to the script.
My reply ....Yes correct, but is punishment warranted and why?
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  Entity Sentiment Detection: script.My reply    reply   decision   actions  
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You say .....If everything is predetermined, there is no punishment, there is only the script.
My reply....Right .....doing 20 years in jail is not punishment as it’s only the script ....oh dear
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A person's crimes dictate their punishment. To suggest or insuate a person's actions should not be held accountable is defined as a state of lawlesness and immorality.
This type of argument surveys morality.
People define ethics as a standard for moral behaviour.
Standards are themselves derived from the aspect of conscience.
Everyone has the same sense of right and wrong however, how a person's conscience is effected by individual choices is different.
This is not generally understood.
The lieng left ( lacking morality they lie) suggest morality is a construct except, internal motivation determines a respect for moral decision making.
Everyone feels as if a decision is either right or wrong, sub-consciouslly.
The word of God the Bible makes it clear you can sear your conscience.
Most people's conscience is seared. I have no idea how people can play video games dismembering a person and not think they are insane for feeling nothing.thats psychotic behaviour that falls under and is classified UNDER the DSM-IV as psychotic derangement and decencitized behaviours.
This demonstrates an imperative.
1.The human conscience dictates the awareness of right and wrong
as a faculty of reasoning and rationalizing behaviour as right or wrong.
2. The mind is effected by the conscience when confronted with a moral considerations
Think of it this way. In the most simple terms. If morality were an idea who could understand it, if it does not effect the mind or emotions of a person who isn't intrinsically aware of right and wrong.
You can get into an argument about nature vs nurture, which is an absurd argument.
Psychologically, people are effected by behaviour so there has to be something that innately effects how someone feels about behaviour or a cause for their feelings , thoughts, etc.
Since the sense of right and wrong has an emotional cause, it can not be based solely on reason.
To suggest morality is a construct and suggest nurture, is an absurd fallacy.
Someone can not be nurtered to have a particular sense of behaviour if they lack a sense of behaviour in the foremost sense of lacking any conscienable understanding of morality.
Human beings are naturally rational, and rationalize right and wrong based on a mind that has the capacity for understanding right and wrong. So many people commonly agree about moral issues because a moral sense of right and wrong is natural however, people controversially agree because they are evil and therefore deserve punishment for violating their conscience and what is moral.
Jesus the God of creation gave everyone a conscience. Your conscious mind is aware of right and wrong, it's why your asking the question.
Jesus is God and Lord.
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  Entity Sentiment Detection: sense of right    psychotic behaviour   sentences people   person's crimes  
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Punishment can be justified pragmatically: it can be useful to hold each other responsible ... but where it is not useful it makes no sense. Because nobody actually deserves it.
2. But we're not the Ultimate Cause of Ourselves.
3. Therefore, Libertarian Free Will does not exist.
1. If Consciousness is real then illusionism is false.
2. Consciousness is real.
3. Therefore, illusionism is false.
1. With regards to consciousness, either (a) Radical emergence is true, (b) Dualism is true or (c) Panpsychism is true.
3. (a) and (b) are false.
4. Therefore, Panpsychism is true.
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2. But we're not the Ultimate Cause of Ourselves.
3. Therefore, Libertarian Free Will does not exist.
1. If Consciousness is real then illusionism is false.
2. Consciousness is real.
3. Therefore, illusionism is false.
1. With regards to consciousness, either (a) Radical emergence is true, (b) Dualism is true or (c) Panpsychism is true.
3. (a) and (b) are false.
4. Therefore, Panpsychism is true.
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2. But we're not the Ultimate Cause of Ourselves.
3. Therefore, Libertarian Free Will does not exist.
1. If Consciousness is real then illusionism is false.
2. Consciousness is real.
3. Therefore, illusionism is false.
1. With regards to consciousness, either (a) Radical emergence is true, (b) Dualism is true or (c) Panpsychism is true.
3. (a) and (b) are false.
4. Therefore, Panpsychism is true.
  Considerate: 100%  
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Our beliefs are *part* of the causal stream of the unknown future. You're excluding it. Fatalism and determinism are different things ... and you're reacting to determinism as if it's fatalism: it isn't. The future is predetermined, yes, but it *isn't* predetermined *in spite of what we believe*. What we believe *is part of* what determines the future and, regardless of the fact that we have no choice over what we believe, it is still the case that we are deluded if we think it *isn't* part of what determines the future. X may be predetermined to happen but it's not predetermined to happen "no matter what." In other words, it's not predetermined to happen *in spite* of the previous events ... it's predetermined to happen *because of* the previous events.
If one is just a character with a certain destiny within a prewritten story ... that doesn't mean that one will reach one's destiny, at the final page of the story, *without* all the necessary actions that one does on the previous pages.
The future is predetermined but unknown. Unknown and there to be discovered. Don't you want to discover whether you're the sort of person to lose false beliefs rather than keep them? Persuasion is real whether it's voluntary or involuntary.
2. But we're not the Ultimate Cause of Ourselves.
3. Therefore, Libertarian Free Will does not exist.
1. If Consciousness is real then illusionism is false.
2. Consciousness is real.
3. Therefore, illusionism is false.
1. With regards to consciousness, either (a) Radical emergence is true, (b) Dualism is true or (c) Panpsychism is true.
3. (a) and (b) are false.
4. Therefore, Panpsychism is true.
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If X is an event in the future then X is not predetermined to happen "no matter what" *in spite* of previous events, and regardless of what we do, X is, instead, *because of* previous events, including what we do.
It's just that what we do is also predetermined by previous events, prior to actions, which we have zero control over. So we ultimately have zero control over our actions ... but this isn't fatalism. With fatalism our actions would be treated as if they weren't even part of the causal stream of the universe ... that X would happen *in spite* of what we do. But our actions *are* part of the causal stream of the universe. And it's *because* of what we do ... it's just that what we do is because of prior stuff that we have zero control over. There is a difference: for example ... imagine that I am holding a ball now ibut in the future I am determined to drop it. It's not as if I will drop it even if I don't let go. It's just that I will have no choice in my letting go, at some point, because it's already prewritten. The ball won't be dropped by itself. My actions matter and have meaning. So do my beliefs. There's just no control over my actions or beliefs.
2. But we're not the Ultimate Cause of Ourselves.
3. Therefore, Libertarian Free Will does not exist.
1. If Consciousness is real then illusionism is false.
2. Consciousness is real.
3. Therefore, illusionism is false.
1. With regards to consciousness, either (a) Radical emergence is true, (b) Dualism is true or (c) Panpsychism is true.
3. (a) and (b) are false.
4. Therefore, Panpsychism is true.
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  Entity Sentiment Detection: free will    freedom of choice   grip of inexorable natural laws   senseMy reply  
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2. But we're not the Ultimate Cause of Ourselves.
3. Therefore, Libertarian Free Will does not exist.
1. If Consciousness is real then illusionism is false.
2. Consciousness is real.
3. Therefore, illusionism is false.
1. With regards to consciousness, either (a) Radical emergence is true, (b) Dualism is true or (c) Panpsychism is true.
3. (a) and (b) are false.
4. Therefore, Panpsychism is true.
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  Spelling & Grammar: 100%  
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  Entity Sentiment Detection: punishment    people      
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That doesn't follow from the fact that there's no free will.
People clearly punish each other. The point is that people can't deserve to be punished without free will.
2. But we're not the Ultimate Cause of Ourselves.
3. Therefore, Libertarian Free Will does not exist.
1. If Consciousness is real then illusionism is false.
2. Consciousness is real.
3. Therefore, illusionism is false.
1. With regards to consciousness, either (a) Radical emergence is true, (b) Dualism is true or (c) Panpsychism is true.
3. (a) and (b) are false.
4. Therefore, Panpsychism is true.
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  Sentiment: Neutral  
  Avg. Grade Level: 7.88  
  Sources: 0  
  Entity Sentiment Detection: free will    point   fact   People  
  Relevant (Beta): 97%  
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  Considerate: 100%  
  Substantial: 100%  
  Sentiment: Negative  
  Avg. Grade Level:   
  Sources:   
  Relevant (Beta): 100%  
  Learn More About Debra