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If the Christian God is good, why did he kill so many people? Does this make him evil?
in Religion

By PoguePogue 517 Pts
First let's start with the definition that we need.
Good- something that is morally right
The Bible states he created good and evil so they sort of even eachother out so let's look at God's actions. 
I hope we all can agree that killing innocent people is wrong. If we can, why did he do it?
Here are some of the times he killed people (credit to http://dwindlinginunbelief.blogspot.com/2010/04/drunk-with-blood-gods-killings-in-bible.html): 
Killing EventReferenceBible's NumberEstimate
1The Flood of NoahGen 7:2320,000,000
2Abraham's war to rescue LotGen 14:17-191,000
3Sodom and GomorrahGen 19:242,000
4Lot's wifeGen 19:2611
5While they were sore, Dinah's brethren slew all the malesGen 34:1-31Judith 9:2-321,000
6Er for being wicked in the sight of the LordGen 38:711
7Onan for spilling his seedGen 38:1011
8A seven year worldwide famineGen 41:25-5470,000
9There will be blood: The first plague of EgyptEx 7:15-27 , Wis 11:7-810,000
10The seventh plague: hailEx 9:25300,000
11Firstborn Egyptian childrenEx 12:29-30500,000
12The Lord took off their chariot wheelsEx 14:8-266005,000
13AmalekitesEx 17:131,000
14Who is on the Lord's side?: Forcing friends and family to kill each otherEx 32:27-283,0003,000
15Aaron's golden calfEx 32:351,000
16God burns Aaron's sons to death for offering "strange fire"Lev 10:1-322
17A blasphemer is stoned to deathLev 24:10-2311
18When the people complained, God burned them to deathNum 11:1100
19While the flesh was still between their teeth, the Lord smote them will a very great plagueNum 11:3310,000
20Ten scouts are killed for their honest reportNum 14:35-4510110
21A man gathering sticks on the Sabbath day is stoned to deathNum 15:32-3511
22Korah, his companions, and their families are buried aliveNum 16:2739
23God burns 250 people to death for burning incenseNum 16:35250250
24God kills 14,700 for complaining about God's killingsNum 16:4914,70014,700
25The massacre of the AradiesNum 21:1-23,000
26God sent serpents to bite people for complaining about the lack of food and waterNum 21:6100
27Phineas's double murder: A killing to end God's killingNum 25:1-1124,00224,002
28The Midianite massacre: Have ye saved all the women alive?Num 31:1-356200,000
29God slowly killed the Israelite armyDt 2:14-16500,000
30God the giant killerDt 2:21-225,000
31God hardens King Sihon's heart so all his people can be killedDt 2:33-3415,000
32Og and all the men women, and children in 60 citiesDt 3:6160,000
33The Jericho massacreJos 6:211,000
34Achan and his familyJos 7:10-2615
35The Ai massacreJos 8:1-2512,00012,000
36God stops the sun so Joshua can get his killing done in the daylightJos 10:10-115,000
37Five kings killed and hung on treesJos 10:26510,000
38Joshua utterly destroyed all that breathed as the Lord commandedJos 10:28-4277,000
39The genocide of twenty cities: There was not any left to breatheJos 11:8-12220,000
40The Anakim: some more giant killingJos 11:20-215,000
41The Lord delivered the Canaanites and PerizzitesJg 1:410,00010,000
42The Jerusalem massacreJg 1:81,000
43Five massacres, a wedding, and God-proof iron chariotsJg 1:9-255,000
44The Lord delivered ChushanrishathaimJg 3:7-1011,000
45Ehud delivers a message from GodJg 3:15-2211
46God delivers 10,000 lusty MoabitesJg 3:28-2910,00010,000
47Shamgar killed 600 Philistines with an ox goadJg 3:31600600
48Barak and God massacre the CanaanitesJg 4:15-161,000
49Jael pounds a tent stake through a sleeping man's skullJg 4:18-2211
50Gideon's story: The Lord set every man's sword against his fellowJg 7:22120,000120,000
BaconToeswith_all_humilityGeorge_HorseZombieguy1987Agility_Dude
I could either have the future pass me or l could create it. 

“We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid.” - Benjamin Franklin  So flat Earthers, man-made climate change deniers, and just science deniers.

I friended myself! 
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Arguments

  • I think it's good to kill good people in Christianity as you ensure they go to heaven and don't live to screw up their karma and end in hell. Killing people currently toy in negative karma is evil for the inverse reason.

    Yeah, I don't entirely understand Christianity.
    BaconToesMr_BombasticGeorge_HorserefugeeZombieguy1987
    Be tomorrow's hero, not today's idol.
  • PoguePogue 517 Pts
    edited April 14
    I think it's good to kill good people in Christianity as you ensure they go to heaven and don't live to screw up their karma and end in hell. Killing people currently toy in negative karma is evil for the inverse reason.

    Yeah, I don't entirely understand Christianity.
    I also don't "understand" it. 

    @with_all_humility What is fallacious (what fallacy) about the opening argument? 
    I could either have the future pass me or l could create it. 

    “We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid.” - Benjamin Franklin  So flat Earthers, man-made climate change deniers, and just science deniers.

    I friended myself! 
  • The fact is, have you considered the actions of the people leading up to such events. In the events of the flood, the people except for Noah were blasphemous and distasteful in the eyes of God, and to a point, so God did not kill them just because, it was because they refused to accept him and his blessings, and would not have changed their views. God does everything for a purpose, and it is important to know the context of the situation before making a judgement that every killing was wrong. 
    EvidenceMr_Bombastic
    A good debate is not judged by bias, but in the context of the debate, where objectivity is key and rationale prevalent. 


  • PoguePogue 517 Pts
    The fact is, have you considered the actions of the people leading up to such events. In the events of the flood, the people except for Noah were blasphemous and distasteful in the eyes of God, and to a point, so God did not kill them just because, it was because they refused to accept him and his blessings, and would not have changed their views. God does everything for a purpose, and it is important to know the context of the situation before making a judgement that every killing was wrong. 
    Yes. 
    Blessing? What blessing?
    I think everyone does something for a purpose. If everything he does is justified and ok, why did he kill 14,700 killed for complaining about God's killings? What about when he killed 250 people for burning incense? How about when he 50,070 killed for looking into the ark of the Lord? Just because God deems it distasteful doesn't mean it is!
    I could either have the future pass me or l could create it. 

    “We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid.” - Benjamin Franklin  So flat Earthers, man-made climate change deniers, and just science deniers.

    I friended myself! 
  • Pogue said:
    The fact is, have you considered the actions of the people leading up to such events. In the events of the flood, the people except for Noah were blasphemous and distasteful in the eyes of God, and to a point, so God did not kill them just because, it was because they refused to accept him and his blessings, and would not have changed their views. God does everything for a purpose, and it is important to know the context of the situation before making a judgement that every killing was wrong. 
    Yes. 
    Blessing? What blessing?
    I think everyone does something for a purpose. If everything he does is justified and ok, why did he kill 14,700 killed for complaining about God's killings? What about when he killed 250 people for burning incense? How about when he 50,070 killed for looking into the ark of the Lord? Just because God deems it distasteful doesn't mean it is!
    God has a plan that he sets out for ourselves to complete and fulfill, and in the instance with the flood, the people had disregarded God in every way/shape/form, but keep in mind, God promised that he would never cause such a flood or worldwide disaster. Besides, we can not call God's actions wrong because God is a divine being and we are natural creatures. We are not in a position to judge God's actions, and there are multiple instances in the Bible were Jesus rebukes people for judging God's actions, perhaps notably in Working on Sundays, the Curing in the Temple, and the Wedding Feast parable. 

    Also, you should use Biblical terms and not some estimate, because the estimate could be whatever I want it to be, whereas the Bible gives clear cut answers. 
    A good debate is not judged by bias, but in the context of the debate, where objectivity is key and rationale prevalent. 


  • PoguePogue 517 Pts
    Pogue said:
    The fact is, have you considered the actions of the people leading up to such events. In the events of the flood, the people except for Noah were blasphemous and distasteful in the eyes of God, and to a point, so God did not kill them just because, it was because they refused to accept him and his blessings, and would not have changed their views. God does everything for a purpose, and it is important to know the context of the situation before making a judgement that every killing was wrong. 
    Yes. 
    Blessing? What blessing?
    I think everyone does something for a purpose. If everything he does is justified and ok, why did he kill 14,700 killed for complaining about God's killings? What about when he killed 250 people for burning incense? How about when he 50,070 killed for looking into the ark of the Lord? Just because God deems it distasteful doesn't mean it is!
    God has a plan that he sets out for ourselves to complete and fulfill, and in the instance with the flood, the people had disregarded God in every way/shape/form, but keep in mind, God promised that he would never cause such a flood or worldwide disaster. Besides, we can not call God's actions wrong because God is a divine being and we are natural creatures. We are not in a position to judge God's actions, and there are multiple instances in the Bible were Jesus rebukes people for judging God's actions, perhaps notably in Working on Sundays, the Curing in the Temple, and the Wedding Feast parable. 

    Also, you should use Biblical terms and not some estimate, because the estimate could be whatever I want it to be, whereas the Bible gives clear cut answers. 
    Why can't we judge his actions? If anything stands up to criticism, it is likely true. God made us this way anyway. The chart uses estimates if the Bible did not say how many were killed.
    I could either have the future pass me or l could create it. 

    “We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid.” - Benjamin Franklin  So flat Earthers, man-made climate change deniers, and just science deniers.

    I friended myself! 
  • edited April 16
    @Pogue

    I don't believe to ask why God did something is wrong, that is seeking to understand.  But to judge God would be considered blasphemy.  Most people believe the word blasphemy to mean taking the Lord's name in vain, using His name as a curse word.  However, blasphemy has a much deep definition as well, when you judge or deem God's commandments to be unfitting for you or mankind.  You have elevated yourself to His level or higher, this is also considered blasphemy.  Sometimes we want to believe that the Bible is democratic like our modern society, however, it is far from being a democracy, it is more of an autocracy.

    So, one is to show reverence in addressing God and His judgments, commandments, and actions.  Just so you know why some pushback on certain terminology.  It's not to say we are to have a "blind" faith as well, to have a blind faith in God is just as wrong.
    WilliamSchulz
  • I think it's good to kill good people in Christianity as you ensure they go to heaven and don't live to screw up their karma and end in hell. Killing people currently toy in negative karma is evil for the inverse reason.

    Yeah, I don't entirely understand Christianity.
    Actually, those recorded events took place under Old Testament times, not during the New Testament.  There was a purpose for this, but I just want to quickly point out the events cited above have nothing to do with Christianity.  It is the same God, but as I wll explain in a separate post there was a reason for this.  
  • The premise is:

    First, let's start with the definition that we need.
    Good- something that is morally right
    The Bible states he created good and evil so they sort of even each other out so let's look at God's actions. 
    I hope we all can agree that killing innocent people is wrong. If we can, why did he do it?

    We need to further define what is moral if the definition is simply something that is good.  Then you don't have morality, you have subjectivity. Because what is good for one person may not be good for another.  Morality is a guiding principle that resulting in objective goodness.  To have objective goodness a moral must be timeless (transcending),  demands accountability, precedes humanity and is value adding to human life.  If we remove any one of the four criteria, you no longer have a moral. [1]

    Transcending: First, goodness entails a moral authority which crosses all times, places, and cultures. Must have a standard. People groups can’t make up their own values. Instead, value applies to all people regardless of what anyone thinks about it.  That’s what philosophers mean by “mind-independent.” The Nazis can’t be justified in doing what they did no matter how many people agreed with it.  Instead, goodness must extend beyond the individual mind or community consensus to be the standard by which ALL people and cultures are compared. The value inherent in objective goodness must transcend humanity in this way.

    Preceding:  Second, goodness cannot have been invented by the first humans. After all, any values established by man can be later undone by men. [2] It would be absurd to think the first humans could come up with whatever value system they wanted because they were first on the scene.  It doesn’t take much effort to see the advantage of lying or stealing as virtues. No, that isn’t an option available to us. Goodness wasn’t invented. It was already there. (Consider Romans 1.28-29)
    • Romans 1.28-29:  And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting; being filled with all unrighteousness, sexual immorality, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil-mindedness; they are whisperers, backbiters, haters of God, violent, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, undiscerning, untrustworthy, unloving, unforgiving, unmerciful; who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them
    Holding Accountable:  Third, there is no objective goodness if evil goes unpunished. In other words, where there’s no justice, there’s no injustice. When people are allowed to do bad things without any consequences, there is no justice. Objective goodness demands justice. But there’s not always justice in this world. 

    • In a purely natural world with no accountability for all people, there’s no justice for all people. If there’s no justice for all people, there’s no justice at all. If that’s not good, then goodness must include universal human accountability and chaos may ensue 

    Value Giving:  Fourth, objective goodness must include the intrinsic value inherent in all human life.  By intrinsic, I mean they all have equal worth just for being part of the species and not for any act, experience, or attribute they have or lack.  It would make no sense to violate the rights of a human being if they aren’t valued in the first place. Evil and suffering experienced by humans only makes sense if the species has worth beyond itself and that their value is an objective fact of reality

    The second argument - The Bible states he created good and evil so they sort of even each other out so let's look at God's actions. 

    This premise is based on King James Version of Isaiah 45.7, where it states..."I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things."  Many would like for the word evil in this verse to mean 

    1. profoundly immoral and malevolent.
      "his evil deeds" · 
      synonyms: wicked · bad · wrong · morally wrong · wrongful · immoral · sinful [3]

    However, there is evidence to the contrary.  More modern versions of Isaiah have translated the verse as...

    We can also examine the original Hebrew meaning from a lexicon. 

    7451.  רַע raʿ, rah; from 7489; bad or (as noun) evil (nat. or mor.):—adversity, affliction, bad, calamity, + displease (-ure), distress, evil ([-favouredness], man, thing), + exceedingly, × great, grief (-vous), harm, heavy, hurt (-ful), ill (favoured). + mark, mischief (-vous), misery, naught (-ty), noisome, + not please, sad (-ly), sore, sorrow, trouble, vex, wicked (-ly, -ness, one), worse (-st), wretchedness, wrong. [4]

    Notice how the "Evil" connotation carries either a natural event or an evil man/thing. If we go a little further in-depth and evaluate the sense of the word we find...


    Two things to be noted from the Bible Sense Lexicon: 1) the sense of the word is an event resulting in loss or misfortune. 2) Looking to the arrow we find Isa 31.2 has the same Hebrew word with the same sense.




    Notice from both Isa 32.1 and 45.7 both verses have the same Hebrew word רַע raʿrah; and they both carry the same sense of the word.  One is interpreted as a calamity and the other a disaster.  If we look at the entire verse of Ish 31.2 we find the word evildoer or doer of evil.  

    Isaiah 31.2"  Yet He also is wise and will bring disaster, and will not call back His words, but will arise against the house of evildoers, and against the help of those who work iniquity.[5]



    Now we can see how רַע raʿrah; is used to mean a natural event/misfortune and רָעַע râʿaʿ, raw-ah´; is a doer of evil.  Now let's evaluate the sense of the word.

     

    Here we can see the Hebrew word that denotes one who does evil.  So, the only logical conclusion is Isa 45.7 does not carry the idea that God is a creator of evil or a doer of evil as thought of in our modern English definition and usage of the word evil.

    Evil can be thought of as the absence of good, just as darkness is the absence of light.  Let's evaluate some verses that testify to God's goodness. 

    • Genesis 1:31  And God saw everything that he had made, and behold, it was very good. And there was evening and there was morning, the sixth day.
    • Psalm 100:5  For the LORD is good; his steadfast love endures forever, and his faithfulness to all generations.
    • Luke 18:19  And Jesus said to him, "Why do you call me good? No one is good except God alone.
    • Romans 12:2  Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that by testing you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect.

    A verse that testifies to God not being associated with evilness, sin, or wrongdoings.

    • Psalms 5:4  For You are not a God who takes pleasure in wickedness, Nor shall evil dwell with You.
    Recall that there is no morality without accountability.  Just as in modern times, why have a law if the law is not going to be enforced?  Here are some verses that speak to God hold mankind accountable.  
    • Ecclesiastes 12:14:  For God will bring every work into judgment, Including every secret thing, Whether good or evil.
    • Amos 5:14-15:  Seek good and not evil, that you may live; So, the LORD God of hosts will be with you, as you have spoken.  Hate evil, love good; Establish justice in the gate. It may be that the LORD God of hosts Will be gracious to the remnant of Joseph.
    • Romans 13:4:  For he is God's minister to you for goodBut if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God's minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil.
    • James 1:13-14:  Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone.  But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed.
    • 1Peter 3:17:  For it is better if it is the will of God, to suffer for doing good than for doing evil.
    • Romans 6:23:  For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

    The book of Hebrews reveals that Old Testament events served as a Copy for the Shadows of things to come.  In other words, physical Israel served as a copy of what happens in the Spiritual realm or what is know as Spiritual Israel in the Christian age (shadow). 

    • Hebrews 8.2-7: a minister in the holy places, in the true tent that the Lord set up, not man. For every high priest is appointed to offer gifts and sacrifices; thus it is necessary for this priest also to have something to offer. Now if he were on earth, he would not be a priest at all, since there are priests who offer gifts according to the law. They serve a copy and shadow of the heavenly things. For when Moses was about to erect the tent, he was instructed by God, saying, “See that you make everything according to the pattern that was shown you on the mountain.” But as it is, Christ has obtained a ministry that is as much more excellent than the old as the covenant he mediates is better, since it is enacted on better promises. For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion to look for a second.[6] 

    Taking the totality of what we've revealed to this point we know God is not evil, the events recorded in the Old Testament are there for our learning so we may understand how our physical actions impact our spiritual wellbeing.  We also know that morals must entail accountability, be of a standard that transcends all of humanity, precedes humanity and have an intrinsic value for human life.  Eliminating anyone factor leaves mankind with an unstable opinion that relies on one's own perspective and may result in a conundrum of what might be good for one, may not be good for another.  

    I will stop my rebuttal of the premise for now and address the events state below from the author of the source material in the premise.  The author claims the examples to be the hardest to answer in proving God as not being an immoral entity. I will not have time rebut all 50 events listed, but to prove that all the events can be refuted as not being immoral acts of God, you can send me a message and let me know which event(s) you would perfer to be argued.  

    Author's List: Such examples are bears mauling 42 children, Jephthah sacrificing his daughter, God killing King David's child to punish David, God inflicting thousands if not millions of civilians with tumors, Moses' army killing women and children, etc.[7]


    [1] http://pleaseconvinceme.com/2017/debating-atheists-arrival-of-evil/ ;
    [2] Gregory Koukl, The Story of Reality, p73 
    [3] https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/evil
    [4]  Strong, J. (2009). A Concise Dictionary of the Words in the Greek Testament and The Hebrew Bible (Vol. 2, p. 109). Bellingham, WA: Logos Bible Software.
    [5]The New King James Version. (1982). (Is 31:2). Nashville: Thomas Nelson.
    [6] The Holy Bible: English Standard Version. (2016). (Heb 8:2–7). Wheaton: Standard Bible Society.
    [7] http://dwindlinginunbelief.blogspot.com/2010/04/drunk-with-blood-gods-killings-in-bible.html  
    WilliamSchulzEvidenceSuperSith89
  • In the events of the flood, the people except for Noah were blasphemous and distasteful in the eyes of God, and to a point, so God did not kill them just because, it was because they refused to accept him and his blessings, and would not have changed their views. God does everything for a purpose, and it is important to know the context of the situation before making a judgement that every killing was wrong. 
    Oh Jesus(haha, I am blasphemous), if they didn't accept God when he** showed himself** to them, why would we be accepting him**?(btw, still waiting for evidence on God).
    I swear to God*, if he** pops up anytime in my life time, and I am deemed mentally sane, I would believe in him(i mean, who wouldn't?)

    *assuming he/she/it/they/per/ve/xe/ze/ey exists.
    **Other pronouns apply too, she/it/they/per/ve/xe/ze/ey

    i fart cows
  • BaconToes said:
    In the events of the flood, the people except for Noah were blasphemous and distasteful in the eyes of God, and to a point, so God did not kill them just because, it was because they refused to accept him and his blessings, and would not have changed their views. God does everything for a purpose, and it is important to know the context of the situation before making a judgement that every killing was wrong. 
    Oh Jesus(haha, I am blasphemous), if they didn't accept God when he** showed himself** to them, why would we be accepting him**?(btw, still waiting for evidence on God).
    I swear to God*, if he** pops up anytime in my life time, and I am deemed mentally sane, I would believe in him(i mean, who wouldn't?)

    *assuming he/she/it/they/per/ve/xe/ze/ey exists.
    **Other pronouns apply too, she/it/they/per/ve/xe/ze/ey

    You will be waiting as long as I will be to see a dust of the earth become a living organism.   :grin:

    Also, I'm not sure if I buy Shulz's argument either, he is making an assumption that people rejected God during the time of Noah.  However, the Bible actually teach to the contrary.  

    The Bible is divided into three time periods of Law instituted by God.  The Patriarchal Dispensation, The Mosaic Dispensation, and Christian Age.  The Bible never clearly states what the requirements of the Patriarchal Law were during that time period.  We have the recorded law given to Moses as well as what some call the law of the prophets (which was the same requirements as the Mosaic Law) and the New Testament Law.  Nothing is revealed for the period before the time of the flood.


    As for the destruction of civilization during the time of Noah we are told. Gen 6:3  And the LORD said, "My Spirit shall not strive with man forever, for he is indeed flesh; yet his days shall be one hundred and twenty years."  To be of the flesh is to be corrupt/immoral/sinner consider the following verses. 
    • 1Corinthians 15:50  Now this I say, brethren, that flesh, and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption.
    • Rom 8:8  So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God
    • Rom 8:13  For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.
    Notice God gave man a period of 100 years to stop their wickedness. Durning this period Peter tells us, Noah, preached to those of the time to get the wicked to repent of their wicked ways.
    • 1 Peter 2.19-20:  by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison, 20 who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water. [1]
    • I. God’s resolution not always to strive with man by his Spirit. The Spirit then strove by Noah’s preaching (1 Pt. 3:19, 20) and by inward checks, but it was in vain with the most of men; therefore, says God, He shall not always strive [2]

    Gen 6:5 Verse 5 records the consequence of v. 1–4: the Lord “saw” and condemned the unprecedented corruption of the human family. Here is an intentional mimicry of the sons of God, who “saw” that the daughters of men were “beautiful” (tôb, “good”; 6:2). The wording in vv. 2 and 5 contrasts this deplorable scene with the pristine setting of creation. God “saw” his creation and evaluated his handiwork as “very good” (tôb mĕʾōd, 1:31), but here the sons of God have taken the “good” (“beautiful”) and defiled it. This is reinforced by the play between man’s “great (rabbâ) wickedness” (v. 5) and human “increase in number” (lārōb; v. 2). It serves as a sad commentary on the divine command at creation to “increase in number” (rābû, 1:28). The blessing of reproduction is realized in v. 2 by the grace of God, but humanity has distorted God’s plan and reaped along with their progeny a harvest of sin.

    Verse 5, therefore, accentuates the decadence of the period: “how great man’s wickedness,” “every inclination,” and “only evil all the time.” Whereas human society deems these violent gibbōrîm as “men of renown,” God’s response is repulsion at their wickedness. So monstrous becomes the sin of Noah’s generation that the gravest of measures is the only proper response from heaven. The recurring phrase “on the earth” (vv. 5–7) anticipates the necessary purging of the now-polluted land by the waters of the flood (v. 13), and it also is reminiscent of the ground stained by Abel’s blood, which resulted in Cain’s life as a vagabond “on the earth” (4:12). But there would be no mercy for the murdering gibbōrîm as there had been for evil Cain.

    Wickedness is an inner compulsion that dominates their thoughts and is not just overt action; they plot evil as a matter of lifestyle. Our phrase “inclination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil” is similar to God’s utterance after the flood (8:21), where sin is attributed to humanity from his youth. The flood does not change the essential sinful character of the human heart, but it does exact justice and rescue the lone remnant of a blessed lineage.[3]

    The evidence given in the scriptures is that the world was destroyed due to the corruptness or the unrighteousness of mankind.  There's no evidence that God destroyed the world just because man rejected Him.

    There has only been two recorded laws or testaments given to mankind.  The Mosaic and Christ's/New Testament Law; the book Hebrews states the first was made obsolete.  

    • Heb 8:13:  In that, He says, "A NEW COVENANT," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.
    In the book of Romans, it states the Gentiles were under a different law, separate and apart from the Law of Moses.
    • Rom 2:12-16:  For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law, and as many as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law (for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified; for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves, their thoughts accusing or else excusing them)  in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel.

    This speaks to the moral conscience that is imprinted in every human's brain since the casting out of Adam and Eve from the garden.  There are studies that conclude babies as young as 3 months old can distinguish good from evil. [4]


    I believe the evidence points to the reason God destroyed the inhabitants of the world as a result of the Genesis flood is that mankind at the time violated the natural moral law spoken of in Romans 2 and revealed in phycology studies today with infants.  Thus rendering William Schulz conclusions to be invalid.  



    [1]  The New King James Version. (1982). (1 Pe 3:19–22). Nashville: Thomas Nelson.

    [2]  Henry, M. (1994). Matthew Henry’s commentary on the whole Bible: complete and unabridged in one volume (p. 22). Peabody: Hendrickson.

    [3]  Mathews, K. A. (1996). Genesis 1-11:26 (Vol. 1A, pp. 340–341). Nashville: Broadman & Holman Publishers.

    [4] https://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/are-babies-born-good-165443013/  



    Evidence
  • Elisha Is Jeered, the Maulling of 42 Boys

    2 Kings 2.23-24

    v23 From there Elisha went up to Bethel. As he was walking along the road, some boys came out of the town and jeered at him. “Get out of here, baldly!” they said. “Get out of here, baldly!” v24 He turned around, looked at them and called down a curse on them in the name of the Lord. Then two bears came out of the woods and mauled forty-two of the boys.

    A little bit of context so you can understand more of what going on here.  One of the Godliest prophets of the Bible was Elijah, he was such a good servant of God's, that Jehovah told him he would not suffer death. Elijah is one of two men who perhaps never died not that they were immortal, God just took them to paradise (and that's a maybe), we're not told exactly where God took them to. It was not heaven, because Christ tells us in the NT no man has ever been to heaven. Paradise is referred to being part of Hades the unseen realm of the dead. (Read Luke 16.19-31 from more on Hades.) The first man was Enoch, who was a descendant of Adam through Adam's son Seth. We don't know anything about Enoch other than Genesis 5.24: And Enoch walked with God; and he was not, for God took him. That's it that's all we're told about Enoch.  We are not really told why God took Elijah either, in 2 Kings 2.11 is says "Then it happened, as they continued on and talked, that suddenly a chariot of fire appeared with horses of fire and separated the two of them"[1]

    You're probably starting to wonder what does this have to with bears and boys.  Well, Elisha was Elijah's successor to be a prophet of the Lord. Picking up in 2 Kings 2.13-14: And he took up the cloak of Elijah that had fallen from him and went back and stood on the bank of the Jordan. Then he took the cloak of Elijah that had fallen from him and struck the water, saying, “Where is the Lord, the God of Elijah?” And when he had struck the water, the water was parted to the one side and to the other, and Elisha went over. What this tells Elisha is that while Elijah is gone, God is not, He is still with him. The prophets who witness the whole scene understand that Elijah’s spirit, the spirit of zeal and power, now rests on Elisha. In v16-18 Apparently there was still some doubt about whether Elisha could really replace Elijah, though it seems that he has at least laid claim to the status once reserved for Elijah among the company of the prophets

    2 Kings 2.19-22 A second miracle reveals Elisha’s prominence to the men of Jericho. The city’s water supply is bad, which renders the land as “unproductive” or barren. Elisha purifies the water while performing a ritual involving salt. Use of salt most likely symbolized a break with the past, such as was declared when offerings were made holy by the rubbing of salt (Lev 2.13; Num 18.19; Eze 43.24). The fact that Elisha declares the water healed because of God’s word indicates that no magic has occurred. Rather, the prophet has demonstrated the importance of the event through the use of a symbolic act and has then relayed a message concerning God’s will on the matter. Two groups have now seen evidence of Elisha’s special status.

    2 Kings 2.23–25 With the ascent to Bethel the journey of Elisha is taken a step further. He is now retracing the steps both he and Elijah took earlier in the chapter and we see a third, less respectful group learns of Elisha’s power. Some young boys from Bethel come out of the town to mock and jeer at the prophet. These boys parallel the soldiers in 1 Kings 1.9–12 who order Elijah to come with them, for both groups seem to lack respect for the prophets’ authority and position. The specific insult cast at Elijah is, “Go up, you baldhead! Go up, you baldhead!” Elijah was said to be a very harry man (2 Kings 1.8); so this phrase may refer to some physical marking Elisha took on or to a literal baldness, since artificial baldness was legislated against in Israel (Deuteronomy 14.1), making Elisha’s condition was a natural one.  Either way, the insult was directed specifically at Elisha as a prophet and therefore at the Lord whom he represented. The "jeering" or rude attitude of “Go on up!” may be a reference to Elijah’s translation, with the sense of “Go away like Elijah,” perhaps spoken in “scornful disbelief.”

    Elisha pronounces a swift curse on the group of boys, and bears maul forty-two of the boys. This punishment comes as a punishment of the Lord, in whose name the curse was offered (look at Leviticus 26:21–22). The youths were typical of a nation that, “Mocked God’s messengers, despised his words and scoffed at his prophets” (2 Chronicles 36:16). Some commentators think this story was originally meant “to frighten the young into respect for their reverend elders,” while others believe the account is legendary and represents the worst notions of certain prophetic circles. Others believe that the account demonstrates Elisha’s “effective use of the name of Yahweh” and his role as new “father” of the prophets. It is also true that the scornful have discovered Elisha is no more to be trifled with than Elijah was. Three groups of characters are now aware of Elisha’s prominence. Others have yet to learn this fact, however, so further miracles may be required.

    This final story in the chapter raises some serious questions which are not answered by the author. The death of forty-two boys is hardly to be seen as a characteristic prophetic activity. Suffice it to say that, like the events of Elijah and the soldiers of Ahaziah, this incident is characterized by excess.  Like in 2 Samuel 6.6-7, a man is killed instantly for trying to catch the arc of the covenant when it starts to fall off the cart. 

    Concluding to ridicule a sacred prophet of God’s must have been rewarded by the harshest of punishments. Because in ridiculing the representative of Jehovah’s was in essence to mock and ridicule Jehovah Himself.  The incident is also reminder of 1 Kings 13:20–24 and 20:35–36.

    I know this was long but wanted to thoroughly explain the reason for events that unfolded. 

     

     

    [1] The New King James Version. (1982). (2 Ki 2:11). Nashville: Thomas Nelson.

    Evidence
  • MayCaesarMayCaesar 565 Pts
    edited May 7
    You could take a step further and ask a more fundamental question: "Why did God make humans mortal in the first place? How does death of a human make the world a better place?"

    The only logical explanation is that human death serves some important purpose. And in some situations human death is more precious to the God than human life. There is no way out of the necessity to make a definitive conclusion: the God wants people to die. And at this point in the argument, I have to question the reasoning behind worshiping a god who may want you dead. Would one ever love a human that wants them dead? Especially if that human had the power to prevent their death? Sounds strange.
  • MayCaesar said:
    You could take a step further and ask a more fundamental question: "Why did God make humans mortal in the first place? How does death of a human make the world a better place?"

    The only logical explanation is that human death serves some important purpose. And in some situations human death is more precious to the God than human life. There is no way out of the necessity to make a definitive conclusion: the God wants people to die. And at this point in the argument, I have to question the reasoning behind worshiping a god who may want you dead. Would one ever love a human that wants them dead? Especially if that human had the power to prevent their death? Sounds strange.
    While you are correct that death serves an important purpose, that does not mean that God wants people to die. I am certain that God won't come to your house and murder you, rather God allows you to live your life, and you can either die by natural or man-made causes. A God that actively wanted you dead could have pulled the cord a while ago, but it is his mercy that keeps us in existence.
    Evidence
    A good debate is not judged by bias, but in the context of the debate, where objectivity is key and rationale prevalent. 


  • BaconToesBaconToes 189 Pts
    While you are correct that death serves an important purpose, that does not mean that God wants people to die. I am certain that God won't come to your house and murder you, rather God allows you to live your life, and you can either die by natural or man-made causes. A God that actively wanted you dead could have pulled the cord a while ago, but it is his mercy that keeps us in existence.
    Mercy, huh
    https://list25.com/25-depressing-statistics-about-the-world-we-live-in/
    As a note, I would not be refuting any bible verses since I am not educated about the Bible.
    i fart cows
  • EvidenceEvidence 789 Pts
    BaconToes said:
    While you are correct that death serves an important purpose, that does not mean that God wants people to die. I am certain that God won't come to your house and murder you, rather God allows you to live your life, and you can either die by natural or man-made causes. A God that actively wanted you dead could have pulled the cord a while ago, but it is his mercy that keeps us in existence.
    Mercy, huh
    https://list25.com/25-depressing-statistics-about-the-world-we-live-in/
    As a note, I would not be refuting any bible verses since I am not educated about the Bible.

    @BaconToes Nor are you educated on world events either. Your "25 depressing list", did you know that billions of $$$ are spent a DAY to keep 20 of them rolling as they are. And the five wastefulness and pollution, well that's to keep those who could do something about it from noticing the 20 atrocities.

    You really should educate yourself on the Bible, so you could think twice before posting such poorly chosen evidence as you did against God.
  • EvidenceEvidence 789 Pts
    Pogue said:
    First let's start with the definition that we need.
    Good- something that is morally right
    The Bible states he created good and evil so they sort of even eachother out so let's look at God's actions. 
    I hope we all can agree that killing innocent people is wrong. If we can, why did he do it?
    Here are some of the times he killed people (credit to http://dwindlinginunbelief.blogspot.com/2010/04/drunk-with-blood-gods-killings-in-bible.html): 
    Killing EventReferenceBible's NumberEstimate
    1The Flood of NoahGen 7:2320,000,000
    2Abraham's war to rescue LotGen 14:17-191,000
    3Sodom and GomorrahGen 19:242,000
    4Lot's wifeGen 19:2611
    5While they were sore, Dinah's brethren slew all the malesGen 34:1-31Judith 9:2-321,000
    6Er for being wicked in the sight of the LordGen 38:711
    7Onan for spilling his seedGen 38:1011
    8A seven year worldwide famineGen 41:25-5470,000
    9There will be blood: The first plague of EgyptEx 7:15-27 , Wis 11:7-810,000
    10The seventh plague: hailEx 9:25300,000
    11Firstborn Egyptian childrenEx 12:29-30500,000
    12The Lord took off their chariot wheelsEx 14:8-266005,000
    13AmalekitesEx 17:131,000
    14Who is on the Lord's side?: Forcing friends and family to kill each otherEx 32:27-283,0003,000
    15Aaron's golden calfEx 32:351,000
    16God burns Aaron's sons to death for offering "strange fire"Lev 10:1-322
    17A blasphemer is stoned to deathLev 24:10-2311
    18When the people complained, God burned them to deathNum 11:1100
    19While the flesh was still between their teeth, the Lord smote them will a very great plagueNum 11:3310,000
    20Ten scouts are killed for their honest reportNum 14:35-4510110
    21A man gathering sticks on the Sabbath day is stoned to deathNum 15:32-3511
    22Korah, his companions, and their families are buried aliveNum 16:2739
    23God burns 250 people to death for burning incenseNum 16:35250250
    24God kills 14,700 for complaining about God's killingsNum 16:4914,70014,700
    25The massacre of the AradiesNum 21:1-23,000
    26God sent serpents to bite people for complaining about the lack of food and waterNum 21:6100
    27Phineas's double murder: A killing to end God's killingNum 25:1-1124,00224,002
    28The Midianite massacre: Have ye saved all the women alive?Num 31:1-356200,000
    29God slowly killed the Israelite armyDt 2:14-16500,000
    30God the giant killerDt 2:21-225,000
    31God hardens King Sihon's heart so all his people can be killedDt 2:33-3415,000
    32Og and all the men women, and children in 60 citiesDt 3:6160,000
    33The Jericho massacreJos 6:211,000
    34Achan and his familyJos 7:10-2615
    35The Ai massacreJos 8:1-2512,00012,000
    36God stops the sun so Joshua can get his killing done in the daylightJos 10:10-115,000
    37Five kings killed and hung on treesJos 10:26510,000
    38Joshua utterly destroyed all that breathed as the Lord commandedJos 10:28-4277,000
    39The genocide of twenty cities: There was not any left to breatheJos 11:8-12220,000
    40The Anakim: some more giant killingJos 11:20-215,000
    41The Lord delivered the Canaanites and PerizzitesJg 1:410,00010,000
    42The Jerusalem massacreJg 1:81,000
    43Five massacres, a wedding, and God-proof iron chariotsJg 1:9-255,000
    44The Lord delivered ChushanrishathaimJg 3:7-1011,000
    45Ehud delivers a message from GodJg 3:15-2211
    46God delivers 10,000 lusty MoabitesJg 3:28-2910,00010,000
    47Shamgar killed 600 Philistines with an ox goadJg 3:31600600
    48Barak and God massacre the CanaanitesJg 4:15-161,000
    49Jael pounds a tent stake through a sleeping man's skullJg 4:18-2211
    50Gideon's story: The Lord set every man's sword against his fellowJg 7:22120,000120,000

    @Pogue what, #3 Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities only 2,000? Is that an LGBT estimate? They wish!
  • pocopoco 88 Pts
    @Pogue1st of all your premise of, "The Bible states he created good and evil so they sort of even eachother out so let's look at God's actions."  that assumption is incorrect. 

    Your other assumption of, "I hope we all can agree that killing innocent people is wrong."  Were these people you call innocent, actually innocent?
    By virtue of the story of Noah, it tells us there wasn't any other people on earth that were good other than Noah's family.  Since you're using the bible as our reference material, we must assume that the bible is correct re this.  So, there were no innocent people.

    & looking at another example purely by chance of, Judges 4:18-22, where does it state that God influenced Jael to drive the nail into the other guy's head?

    B4 you start accusing, you should 1stly, make sure your arguments are valid, which they are definitely not.
    with_all_humilityEvidence
  • Pogue said:
    First let's start with the definition that we need.
    Good- something that is morally right
    The Bible states he created good and evil so they sort of even eachother out so let's look at God's actions. 
    I hope we all can agree that killing innocent people is wrong. If we can, why did he do it?
    Here are some of the times he killed people (credit to http://dwindlinginunbelief.blogspot.com/2010/04/drunk-with-blood-gods-killings-in-bible.html): 
    Killing EventReferenceBible's NumberEstimate
    1The Flood of NoahGen 7:2320,000,000
    2Abraham's war to rescue LotGen 14:17-191,000
    3Sodom and GomorrahGen 19:242,000
    4Lot's wifeGen 19:2611
    5While they were sore, Dinah's brethren slew all the malesGen 34:1-31Judith 9:2-321,000
    6Er for being wicked in the sight of the LordGen 38:711
    7Onan for spilling his seedGen 38:1011
    8A seven year worldwide famineGen 41:25-5470,000
    9There will be blood: The first plague of EgyptEx 7:15-27 , Wis 11:7-810,000
    10The seventh plague: hailEx 9:25300,000
    11Firstborn Egyptian childrenEx 12:29-30500,000
    12The Lord took off their chariot wheelsEx 14:8-266005,000
    13AmalekitesEx 17:131,000
    14Who is on the Lord's side?: Forcing friends and family to kill each otherEx 32:27-283,0003,000
    15Aaron's golden calfEx 32:351,000
    16God burns Aaron's sons to death for offering "strange fire"Lev 10:1-322
    17A blasphemer is stoned to deathLev 24:10-2311
    18When the people complained, God burned them to deathNum 11:1100
    19While the flesh was still between their teeth, the Lord smote them will a very great plagueNum 11:3310,000
    20Ten scouts are killed for their honest reportNum 14:35-4510110
    21A man gathering sticks on the Sabbath day is stoned to deathNum 15:32-3511
    22Korah, his companions, and their families are buried aliveNum 16:2739
    23God burns 250 people to death for burning incenseNum 16:35250250
    24God kills 14,700 for complaining about God's killingsNum 16:4914,70014,700
    25The massacre of the AradiesNum 21:1-23,000
    26God sent serpents to bite people for complaining about the lack of food and waterNum 21:6100
    27Phineas's double murder: A killing to end God's killingNum 25:1-1124,00224,002
    28The Midianite massacre: Have ye saved all the women alive?Num 31:1-356200,000
    29God slowly killed the Israelite armyDt 2:14-16500,000
    30God the giant killerDt 2:21-225,000
    31God hardens King Sihon's heart so all his people can be killedDt 2:33-3415,000
    32Og and all the men women, and children in 60 citiesDt 3:6160,000
    33The Jericho massacreJos 6:211,000
    34Achan and his familyJos 7:10-2615
    35The Ai massacreJos 8:1-2512,00012,000
    36God stops the sun so Joshua can get his killing done in the daylightJos 10:10-115,000
    37Five kings killed and hung on treesJos 10:26510,000
    38Joshua utterly destroyed all that breathed as the Lord commandedJos 10:28-4277,000
    39The genocide of twenty cities: There was not any left to breatheJos 11:8-12220,000
    40The Anakim: some more giant killingJos 11:20-215,000
    41The Lord delivered the Canaanites and PerizzitesJg 1:410,00010,000
    42The Jerusalem massacreJg 1:81,000
    43Five massacres, a wedding, and God-proof iron chariotsJg 1:9-255,000
    44The Lord delivered ChushanrishathaimJg 3:7-1011,000
    45Ehud delivers a message from GodJg 3:15-2211
    46God delivers 10,000 lusty MoabitesJg 3:28-2910,00010,000
    47Shamgar killed 600 Philistines with an ox goadJg 3:31600600
    48Barak and God massacre the CanaanitesJg 4:15-161,000
    49Jael pounds a tent stake through a sleeping man's skullJg 4:18-2211
    50Gideon's story: The Lord set every man's sword against his fellowJg 7:22120,000120,000
    It is good when God kills bad people.  It'd be good if I did it too, but it's illegal.  But just because it's illegal doesn't mean its bad.
  • VaulkVaulk 563 Pts
    Strange how the OP formally acknowledges that God is the authority on what is Good and Evil...then proceeds to label people as "Innocent" by a subjective standard through today's eyes and reapplies this standard to the actions of a Supernatural being that occurred thousands of years ago.

    If you're going to acknowledge God as the supreme authority on what is Good and what is Evil...then you cannot in the same breath determine those he deemed as "Wicked" or "Evil" are actually "Innocent".
    with_all_humilityethang5
    "If there's no such thing as a stupid question then what kind of questions do stupid people ask"?

    "There's going to be a special place in Hell for people who spread lies through the veil of logical fallacies disguised as rational argument".

    "Oh, you don't like my sarcasm?  Well I don't much appreciate your stupid".


  • Indeed, and in his next breath he will call God evil.  
    If God has determined that something or someone is evil, or if God has determined that some evil should be destroyed, or even if God determines to destroy something that is innocent and good, it cannot be said that God is evil.  All that God does is good.  If someone wants to judge God for what God has done, whether they understand or not why God has done it, they're barking up the wrong tree.
    with_all_humilityEvidenceVaulkErfisflat
  • It seems the Christian god is the one being discussed, so I will stick to that god only unless otherwise specified. To start with, God is the rule maker. They do not have to abide by their own rules. What they set as good or evil for us is not something that applies to them. Even if it did, they know things that we do not and make their decisions based on what they know. For example: Killing an innocent person seems evil to us, but if you kill an innocent before they endure more pain and hardship than they can personally bare and they go to heaven, then it's actually mercy.
  • EvidenceEvidence 789 Pts
    It seems the Christian god is the one being discussed, so I will stick to that god only unless otherwise specified. To start with, God is the rule maker. They do not have to abide by their own rules. What they set as good or evil for us is not something that applies to them. Even if it did, they know things that we do not and make their decisions based on what they know. For example: Killing an innocent person seems evil to us, but if you kill an innocent before they endure more pain and hardship than they can personally bare and they go to heaven, then it's actually mercy.
     @LogicVault said: To start with, God is the rule maker. They do not have to abide by their own rules.

    Who is "they"?
  • @Evidence

    The "They" could be the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.  Who is the "Us" in Genesis 1.26 "Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth."
  • @Evidence
    "Who is "they"?" The god being referred to. People typically assume it's a male, but I refuse to assume the gender of a fictional character.
  • @with_all_humility
    The people who wrote the scripture would have been more accurate if they said "Let us make God in our image, according to our likeness; claim it created the fish of the sea, the birds of the air, and the cattle, all the earth and every creeping thing that creeps on the earth."
  • edited June 30
    @LogicVault

    How orginal...so, you've elevated yourself to the level of a Diety.  
  • @Evidence
    "Who is "they"?" The god being referred to. People typically assume it's a male, but I refuse to assume the gender of a fictional character.
    LogicVault, you can refuse all that you want, but whether in Hebrew, Armaic or Greek the word for God is always in the masculine form.  
  • LogicVaultLogicVault 100 Pts
    edited June 30
    @with_all_humility
    "you can refuse all that you want, but whether in Hebrew, Armaic or Greek the word for God is always in the masculine form." That's because men wrote it and are usually more powerful than women.

    "How orginal...so, you've elevated yourself to the level of a Diety." No, the point is that people made God up. They created the character and claimed it's image is similar to ours. Therefore, man created God in their image.
  • @with_all_humility
    "That's because men wrote it and are usually more powerful than women."  

    How do you account for the book of Ester (about a woman who saved her Jewish nation), and Debra was one of the Judges (ruler) over is all of Israel (Judges 4.4).  Both women, including Ruth are women who are recorded as God fearing women that either ruled over the Nation of Israel or played an important role in biblical history.   


    "No, the point is that people made God up. They created the character and claimed it's image is similar to ours. Therefore, man created God in their image."  

    I understood the point you were trying to make.  Your evidence for such a claim is what?  There are 10 of thousands of ancient manuscripts that testify to scriptures (as well as achelogical evidence), you've dismissed all of this evidence based on what? 

  • edited July 1


  • EvidenceEvidence 789 Pts
    edited July 2
    @Evidence

    The "They" could be the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.  Who is the "Us" in Genesis 1.26 "Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth."

    @with_all_humility also what do you think my brother @Erfisflat, since I value your opinion a lot!

    In order my brother, we must put things in order - which the Bible explains who was there "with God" in and from the very beginning. Not Gods beginning for He is Infinite and Eternal, .. but 'a beginning' with God, which started when He beget/created His son Word!

    John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

    The same we see in the image that God created man in, "Adam represents God's image here on earth, so putting the above verses in the proper perspective as an image, we can read that "in the beginning was Eve, and Eve was with Adam, and before Adam beget woman just as God beget His son Word, Eve was Adam; his rib, .. just as the son Word was God before he was begotten!"

    John 1:2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. 

    Colossians 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
    16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. 17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. 18 And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence.

    Next, God creates the Heaven and the Earth through and for His son Word:

    Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

    Between here and the next verse, we see that something happened to the earth, 

    Genesis 1:2 Now the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was on the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters.

    We see that the earth is in darkness and chaos, no life was found there, .. just as it happened again in Noah's time, and as it is happening again in these last days.

    Why? Because as we see in John 1:4, it was void of the Word of God, or no longer abiding by Gods rules and laws which illuminate lawlessness, wickedness that the earth was now in.

    John 1:4 In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.

    Next, God brings order/light back on the earth by His words "Let there be!", and separates chaos from order or darkness from light.

    Genesis 1:3 Then God said, “Let there be light”; and there was light. 4 And God saw the light, that it was good; and God divided the light from the darkness. 5 God called the light Day, and the darkness He called Night.

    Next we see that even though God put the earth back into the light/order, His Word/rules and laws are no longer ruling the earth, so God creates two heavens between His Heaven which is His Throne, and the earth, .. an atmosphere/air which He also calls heaven;

    Genesis 1:6 Then God said, “Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.” 7 Thus God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament; and it was so. 8 And God called the firmament heaven.

    Next we see God through His Word creating vegetation and trees:

    Gen 1:11 Then God said, “Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb that yields seed, and the fruit tree that yields fruit according to its kind, whose seed is in itself, on the earth”; and it was so.

    .. because Gods presence is still here, the vegetation did not need artificial light yet like our sun or the moon, .. so before God removes His presencre, that's what He does next, and puts them in the firmament of the heaven between His Heaven where His Throne is, and the air:

    Gen 1:16 Then God made two great lights: the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night. He made the stars also. 17 God set them in the firmament of the heavens to give light on the earth, 18 and to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness. And God saw that it was good.

    Next, God turns to His son Word and says:

    Gen 1:26 Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.” 27 So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him;

    Gen 2:7 And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.

    God called man Adam, and like Himself, God seen that it's not good that man should be alone:

    Gen 2:18 And the Lord God said, “It is not good that man should be alone; I will make him a helper comparable to him.” 19 Out of the ground the Lord God formed every beast of the field and every bird of the air, and brought them to Adam to see what he would call them. 20 So Adam gave names to all cattle, to the birds of the air, and to every beast of the field. But for Adam there was not found a helper comparable to him.

    After Adam checked and named all the animals he didn't find them comparable:

    Gen 2: 20 .. But for Adam there was not found a helper comparable to him.

    21 And the Lord God caused a deep sleep to fall on Adam, and he slept; and He took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh in its place. 22 Then the rib which the Lord God had taken from man He [h]made into a woman, and He brought her to the man.

    This fulfills Gen 1:27 where it says: .. male and female He created them.

    So you see, there are no three-gods but One God, as in the image Adam. The there is the His Holy Spirit searching out from the Infinite Wisdom of God to help us, and then there is His son Word, .. who:

    John 1:14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.

    Neither is the Holy Spirit whom Jesus sent to help us, nor is Gods son Word aka Jesus Christ some man deified gods that make up our Infinite and Eternal Creator, and Heavenly Father. There is only One Possible Infinite God.
    The Trinity gods were created by the mock Christian Religion along with thousands of their denominations. It is time that Believers go back following Jesus Christ who is the Way, the Truth and the Life, .. and get out of the Babylon of all Religions created by the RCC and called the derogatory name "Christian"!
    Keep the Bible and the God of the Bible, along with our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, and only drop the name Christian, and the gods that represents Christianity!
    Erfisflat
  • ErfisflatErfisflat 1603 Pts
    Evidence said:
    @Evidence

    The "They" could be the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.  Who is the "Us" in Genesis 1.26 "Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth."

    @with_all_humility also what do you think my brother @Erfisflat, since I value your opinion a lot!

    In order my brother, we must put things in order - which the Bible explains who was there "with God" in and from the very beginning. Not Gods beginning for He is Infinite and Eternal, .. but 'a beginning' with God, which started when He beget/created His son Word!

    John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

    The same we see in the image that God created man in, "Adam represents God's image here on earth, so putting the above verses in the proper perspective as an image, we can read that "in the beginning was Eve, and Eve was with Adam, and before Adam beget woman just as God beget His son Word, Eve was Adam; his rib, .. just as the son Word was God before he was begotten!"

    John 1:2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. 

    Colossians 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
    16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. 17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. 18 And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence.

    Next, God creates the Heaven and the Earth through and for His son Word:

    Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

    Between here and the next verse, we see that something happened to the earth, 

    Genesis 1:2 Now the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was on the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters.

    We see that the earth is in darkness and chaos, no life was found there, .. just as it happened again in Noah's time, and as it is happening again in these last days.

    Why? Because as we see in John 1:4, it was void of the Word of God, or no longer abiding by Gods rules and laws which illuminate lawlessness, wickedness that the earth was now in.

    John 1:4 In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.

    Next, God brings order/light back on the earth by His words "Let there be!", and separates chaos from order or darkness from light.

    Genesis 1:3 Then God said, “Let there be light”; and there was light. 4 And God saw the light, that it was good; and God divided the light from the darkness. 5 God called the light Day, and the darkness He called Night.

    Next we see that even though God put the earth back into the light/order, His Word/rules and laws are no longer ruling the earth, so God creates two heavens between His Heaven which is His Throne, and the earth, .. an atmosphere/air which He also calls heaven;

    Genesis 1:6 Then God said, “Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.” 7 Thus God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament; and it was so. 8 And God called the firmament heaven.

    Next we see God through His Word creating vegetation and trees:

    Gen 1:11 Then God said, “Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb that yields seed, and the fruit tree that yields fruit according to its kind, whose seed is in itself, on the earth”; and it was so.

    .. because Gods presence is still here, the vegetation did not need artificial light yet like our sun or the moon, .. so before God removes His presencre, that's what He does next, and puts them in the firmament of the heaven between His Heaven where His Throne is, and the air:

    Gen 1:16 Then God made two great lights: the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night. He made the stars also. 17 God set them in the firmament of the heavens to give light on the earth, 18 and to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness. And God saw that it was good.

    Next, God turns to His son Word and says:

    Gen 1:26 Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.” 27 So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him;

    Gen 2:7 And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.

    God called man Adam, and like Himself, God seen that it's not good that man should be alone:

    Gen 2:18 And the Lord God said, “It is not good that man should be alone; I will make him a helper comparable to him.” 19 Out of the ground the Lord God formed every beast of the field and every bird of the air, and brought them to Adam to see what he would call them. 20 So Adam gave names to all cattle, to the birds of the air, and to every beast of the field. But for Adam there was not found a helper comparable to him.

    After Adam checked and named all the animals he didn't find them comparable:

    Gen 2: 20 .. But for Adam there was not found a helper comparable to him.

    21 And the Lord God caused a deep sleep to fall on Adam, and he slept; and He took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh in its place. 22 Then the rib which the Lord God had taken from man He [h]made into a woman, and He brought her to the man.

    This fulfills Gen 1:27 where it says: .. male and female He created them.

    So you see, there are no three-gods but One God, as in the image Adam. The there is the His Holy Spirit searching out from the Infinite Wisdom of God to help us, and then there is His son Word, .. who:

    John 1:14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.

    Neither is the Holy Spirit whom Jesus sent to help us, nor is Gods son Word aka Jesus Christ some man deified gods that make up our Infinite and Eternal Creator, and Heavenly Father. There is only One Possible Infinite God.
    The Trinity gods were created by the mock Christian Religion along with thousands of their denominations. It is time that Believers go back following Jesus Christ who is the Way, the Truth and the Life, .. and get out of the Babylon of all Religions created by the RCC and called the derogatory name "Christian"!
    Keep the Bible and the God of the Bible, along with our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, and only drop the name Christian, and the gods that represents Christianity!
    That's pretty much a spot on interpretation of what that says,  yes.
    Pseudoscience: noun; a collection of beliefs or practices mistakenly regarded as being based on scientific method.

    Scientific method: noun; a method of procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses.

    https://www.gofundme.com/mwmvf-is-the-earth-flat

    The highest form of ignorance is when you reject something you don't know anything about.

    Wayne Dyer
  • EvidenceEvidence 789 Pts
    Erfisflat said:
    Evidence said:
    @Evidence

    The "They" could be the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.  Who is the "Us" in Genesis 1.26 "Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth."

    @with_all_humility also what do you think my brother @Erfisflat, since I value your opinion a lot!

    In order my brother, we must put things in order - which the Bible explains who was there "with God" in and from the very beginning. Not Gods beginning for He is Infinite and Eternal, .. but 'a beginning' with God, which started when He beget/created His son Word!

    John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

    The same we see in the image that God created man in, "Adam represents God's image here on earth, so putting the above verses in the proper perspective as an image, we can read that "in the beginning was Eve, and Eve was with Adam, and before Adam beget woman just as God beget His son Word, Eve was Adam; his rib, .. just as the son Word was God before he was begotten!"

    John 1:2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. 

    Colossians 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
    16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. 17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. 18 And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence.

    Next, God creates the Heaven and the Earth through and for His son Word:

    Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

    Between here and the next verse, we see that something happened to the earth, 

    Genesis 1:2 Now the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was on the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters.

    We see that the earth is in darkness and chaos, no life was found there, .. just as it happened again in Noah's time, and as it is happening again in these last days.

    Why? Because as we see in John 1:4, it was void of the Word of God, or no longer abiding by Gods rules and laws which illuminate lawlessness, wickedness that the earth was now in.

    John 1:4 In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.

    Next, God brings order/light back on the earth by His words "Let there be!", and separates chaos from order or darkness from light.

    Genesis 1:3 Then God said, “Let there be light”; and there was light. 4 And God saw the light, that it was good; and God divided the light from the darkness. 5 God called the light Day, and the darkness He called Night.

    Next we see that even though God put the earth back into the light/order, His Word/rules and laws are no longer ruling the earth, so God creates two heavens between His Heaven which is His Throne, and the earth, .. an atmosphere/air which He also calls heaven;

    Genesis 1:6 Then God said, “Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.” 7 Thus God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament; and it was so. 8 And God called the firmament heaven.

    Next we see God through His Word creating vegetation and trees:

    Gen 1:11 Then God said, “Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb that yields seed, and the fruit tree that yields fruit according to its kind, whose seed is in itself, on the earth”; and it was so.

    .. because Gods presence is still here, the vegetation did not need artificial light yet like our sun or the moon, .. so before God removes His presencre, that's what He does next, and puts them in the firmament of the heaven between His Heaven where His Throne is, and the air:

    Gen 1:16 Then God made two great lights: the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night. He made the stars also. 17 God set them in the firmament of the heavens to give light on the earth, 18 and to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness. And God saw that it was good.

    Next, God turns to His son Word and says:

    Gen 1:26 Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.” 27 So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him;

    Gen 2:7 And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.

    God called man Adam, and like Himself, God seen that it's not good that man should be alone:

    Gen 2:18 And the Lord God said, “It is not good that man should be alone; I will make him a helper comparable to him.” 19 Out of the ground the Lord God formed every beast of the field and every bird of the air, and brought them to Adam to see what he would call them. 20 So Adam gave names to all cattle, to the birds of the air, and to every beast of the field. But for Adam there was not found a helper comparable to him.

    After Adam checked and named all the animals he didn't find them comparable:

    Gen 2: 20 .. But for Adam there was not found a helper comparable to him.

    21 And the Lord God caused a deep sleep to fall on Adam, and he slept; and He took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh in its place. 22 Then the rib which the Lord God had taken from man He [h]made into a woman, and He brought her to the man.

    This fulfills Gen 1:27 where it says: .. male and female He created them.

    So you see, there are no three-gods but One God, as in the image Adam. The there is the His Holy Spirit searching out from the Infinite Wisdom of God to help us, and then there is His son Word, .. who:

    John 1:14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.

    Neither is the Holy Spirit whom Jesus sent to help us, nor is Gods son Word aka Jesus Christ some man deified gods that make up our Infinite and Eternal Creator, and Heavenly Father. There is only One Possible Infinite God.
    The Trinity gods were created by the mock Christian Religion along with thousands of their denominations. It is time that Believers go back following Jesus Christ who is the Way, the Truth and the Life, .. and get out of the Babylon of all Religions created by the RCC and called the derogatory name "Christian"!
    Keep the Bible and the God of the Bible, along with our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, and only drop the name Christian, and the gods that represents Christianity!
    That's pretty much a spot on interpretation of what that says,  yes.

    @Erfisflat Thanks buddy, it's all coming together now, especially with the New Flat Earth Revelation, where planets, gravity man being an ape and all the other bs is no longer in the equation. 
    Erfisflat
  • ErfisflatErfisflat 1603 Pts
    Evidence said:
    Erfisflat said:
    Evidence said:
    @Evidence

    The "They" could be the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.  Who is the "Us" in Genesis 1.26 "Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth."

    @with_all_humility also what do you think my brother @Erfisflat, since I value your opinion a lot!

    In order my brother, we must put things in order - which the Bible explains who was there "with God" in and from the very beginning. Not Gods beginning for He is Infinite and Eternal, .. but 'a beginning' with God, which started when He beget/created His son Word!

    John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

    The same we see in the image that God created man in, "Adam represents God's image here on earth, so putting the above verses in the proper perspective as an image, we can read that "in the beginning was Eve, and Eve was with Adam, and before Adam beget woman just as God beget His son Word, Eve was Adam; his rib, .. just as the son Word was God before he was begotten!"

    John 1:2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. 

    Colossians 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
    16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. 17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. 18 And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence.

    Next, God creates the Heaven and the Earth through and for His son Word:

    Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

    Between here and the next verse, we see that something happened to the earth, 

    Genesis 1:2 Now the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was on the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters.

    We see that the earth is in darkness and chaos, no life was found there, .. just as it happened again in Noah's time, and as it is happening again in these last days.

    Why? Because as we see in John 1:4, it was void of the Word of God, or no longer abiding by Gods rules and laws which illuminate lawlessness, wickedness that the earth was now in.

    John 1:4 In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.

    Next, God brings order/light back on the earth by His words "Let there be!", and separates chaos from order or darkness from light.

    Genesis 1:3 Then God said, “Let there be light”; and there was light. 4 And God saw the light, that it was good; and God divided the light from the darkness. 5 God called the light Day, and the darkness He called Night.

    Next we see that even though God put the earth back into the light/order, His Word/rules and laws are no longer ruling the earth, so God creates two heavens between His Heaven which is His Throne, and the earth, .. an atmosphere/air which He also calls heaven;

    Genesis 1:6 Then God said, “Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.” 7 Thus God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament; and it was so. 8 And God called the firmament heaven.

    Next we see God through His Word creating vegetation and trees:

    Gen 1:11 Then God said, “Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb that yields seed, and the fruit tree that yields fruit according to its kind, whose seed is in itself, on the earth”; and it was so.

    .. because Gods presence is still here, the vegetation did not need artificial light yet like our sun or the moon, .. so before God removes His presencre, that's what He does next, and puts them in the firmament of the heaven between His Heaven where His Throne is, and the air:

    Gen 1:16 Then God made two great lights: the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night. He made the stars also. 17 God set them in the firmament of the heavens to give light on the earth, 18 and to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness. And God saw that it was good.

    Next, God turns to His son Word and says:

    Gen 1:26 Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.” 27 So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him;

    Gen 2:7 And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.

    God called man Adam, and like Himself, God seen that it's not good that man should be alone:

    Gen 2:18 And the Lord God said, “It is not good that man should be alone; I will make him a helper comparable to him.” 19 Out of the ground the Lord God formed every beast of the field and every bird of the air, and brought them to Adam to see what he would call them. 20 So Adam gave names to all cattle, to the birds of the air, and to every beast of the field. But for Adam there was not found a helper comparable to him.

    After Adam checked and named all the animals he didn't find them comparable:

    Gen 2: 20 .. But for Adam there was not found a helper comparable to him.

    21 And the Lord God caused a deep sleep to fall on Adam, and he slept; and He took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh in its place. 22 Then the rib which the Lord God had taken from man He [h]made into a woman, and He brought her to the man.

    This fulfills Gen 1:27 where it says: .. male and female He created them.

    So you see, there are no three-gods but One God, as in the image Adam. The there is the His Holy Spirit searching out from the Infinite Wisdom of God to help us, and then there is His son Word, .. who:

    John 1:14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.

    Neither is the Holy Spirit whom Jesus sent to help us, nor is Gods son Word aka Jesus Christ some man deified gods that make up our Infinite and Eternal Creator, and Heavenly Father. There is only One Possible Infinite God.
    The Trinity gods were created by the mock Christian Religion along with thousands of their denominations. It is time that Believers go back following Jesus Christ who is the Way, the Truth and the Life, .. and get out of the Babylon of all Religions created by the RCC and called the derogatory name "Christian"!
    Keep the Bible and the God of the Bible, along with our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, and only drop the name Christian, and the gods that represents Christianity!
    That's pretty much a spot on interpretation of what that says,  yes.

    @Erfisflat Thanks buddy, it's all coming together now, especially with the New Flat Earth Revelation, where planets, gravity man being an ape and all the other bs is no longer in the equation. 
    Does the Bible say anything about this great awakening? For future references.
    Pseudoscience: noun; a collection of beliefs or practices mistakenly regarded as being based on scientific method.

    Scientific method: noun; a method of procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses.

    https://www.gofundme.com/mwmvf-is-the-earth-flat

    The highest form of ignorance is when you reject something you don't know anything about.

    Wayne Dyer
  • @Erfisflat ;

    I don't have an issue with most of your assessment.  Perhaps though to further explain I might politely add...

    "So you see, there are no three-gods but One God, as in the image Adam. Then there is the His Holy Spirit searching out from the Infinite Wisdom of God to help us, and then there is His son Word, .. who:
    John 1:14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth."

    I agree that there are not three-gods (a polytheistic theology) in the Bible, but we do have what some have called a Godhead.

    The Godhead (the Trinity) is a complex bit of scripture, many of authors over several millennia have written extensively on the subject trying to describe how the Father, the Son, and the Spirit are One, but yet three separate entities.  The Bible is vague on the subject and has only revealed a few passages concerning the concept. The best description I know of to describe what the Godhead is comprised of three distinct personalities, but oneness in thought and mind.  I other words there is One God, One Christ, and One Spirit as illustrated in Eph 4.4-6 by Paul.

    Eph 4:4-6 
     There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling; one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

    The one body is in reference to Christ Chruch or the New Testament Chruch.  You already pointed out John 1, we also see the mentioning of the Godhead in 1 John 5.6-12

    We also have a physical manifestation of the Godhead in recorded in Mat 3.16-17 and Lk 3.21-22; when Jesus is baptized by John the Baptist.  Witnesses here is the voice of God from the heavens, the Holy Spirit descending down upon Jesus.  

    "The Trinity gods were created by the mock Christian Religion along with thousands of their denominations. It is time that Believers go back following Jesus Christ who is the Way, the Truth and the Life, .. and get out of the Babylon of all Religions created by the RCC and called the derogatory name "Christian"!

    Just as stated in Eph 4.4-6 there is only one church, Christ's church and those are the followers of the Apostles' doctrine.  It is the one faith, there are no denominations spoken of in the Bible and I agree that they are all perversions man-made doctrines that have twisted the scriptures in some shape, form or fashion.  The RCC was the first denomination created several hundred years after the apostles established Christ church and recorded the New Testament.  

    "Keep the Bible and the God of the Bible, along with our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, and only drop the name Christian, and the gods that represents Christianity!"

    I don't believe one needs to drop the name Christian since it is used to refer to a follower of Christ and Apostles' doctine...However, there are many who profess to be Christians but they are followers of false doctrines.  Many need not fool themselves but instead examine themselves and ensure they are keeping Christ Law.  For it was at the sermon of the mount that He spoke...

    Mat 7:21-23  "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.  Many will say to Me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?'  And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!'

    Good stuff, I'm not up on the Flat Earth Theory, so I'll have to add that to my list of things to read about.  

  • LogicVaultLogicVault 100 Pts
    @with_all_humility
    There may be stories about woman and might have been women in power, but men wrote the stories and men USUALLY have more power.

    "There are 10 of thousands of ancient manuscripts that testify to scriptures" Still stories written by man.

    "as well as achelogical evidence" Show me a single piece of evidence that proves a god exists.

    "you've dismissed all of this evidence based on what?" Based on the fact none of it PROVES a god exists.
  • SonofasonSonofason 96 Pts
    Trump got elected...isn't that alone sufficient proof to convince everyone that God exists?
  • ErfisflatErfisflat 1603 Pts
    @Erfisflat ;

    I don't have an issue with most of your assessment.  Perhaps though to further explain I might politely add...

    "So you see, there are no three-gods but One God, as in the image Adam. Then there is the His Holy Spirit searching out from the Infinite Wisdom of God to help us, and then there is His son Word, .. who:
    John 1:14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth."

    I agree that there are not three-gods (a polytheistic theology) in the Bible, but we do have what some have called a Godhead.

    The Godhead (the Trinity) is a complex bit of scripture, many of authors over several millennia have written extensively on the subject trying to describe how the Father, the Son, and the Spirit are One, but yet three separate entities.  The Bible is vague on the subject and has only revealed a few passages concerning the concept. The best description I know of to describe what the Godhead is comprised of three distinct personalities, but oneness in thought and mind.  I other words there is One God, One Christ, and One Spirit as illustrated in Eph 4.4-6 by Paul.

    Eph 4:4-6 
     There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling; one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

    The one body is in reference to Christ Chruch or the New Testament Chruch.  You already pointed out John 1, we also see the mentioning of the Godhead in 1 John 5.6-12

    We also have a physical manifestation of the Godhead in recorded in Mat 3.16-17 and Lk 3.21-22; when Jesus is baptized by John the Baptist.  Witnesses here is the voice of God from the heavens, the Holy Spirit descending down upon Jesus.  

    "The Trinity gods were created by the mock Christian Religion along with thousands of their denominations. It is time that Believers go back following Jesus Christ who is the Way, the Truth and the Life, .. and get out of the Babylon of all Religions created by the RCC and called the derogatory name "Christian"!

    Just as stated in Eph 4.4-6 there is only one church, Christ's church and those are the followers of the Apostles' doctrine.  It is the one faith, there are no denominations spoken of in the Bible and I agree that they are all perversions man-made doctrines that have twisted the scriptures in some shape, form or fashion.  The RCC was the first denomination created several hundred years after the apostles established Christ church and recorded the New Testament.  

    "Keep the Bible and the God of the Bible, along with our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, and only drop the name Christian, and the gods that represents Christianity!"

    I don't believe one needs to drop the name Christian since it is used to refer to a follower of Christ and Apostles' doctine...However, there are many who profess to be Christians but they are followers of false doctrines.  Many need not fool themselves but instead examine themselves and ensure they are keeping Christ Law.  For it was at the sermon of the mount that He spoke...

    Mat 7:21-23  "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.  Many will say to Me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?'  And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!'

    Good stuff, I'm not up on the Flat Earth Theory, so I'll have to add that to my list of things to read about.  

    I think most of this was meant to be directed @evidence, except the flat earth. I know very little of the Bible. There are a few discussions about our reality earth currently that anyone is welcome to read and join in.
    Pseudoscience: noun; a collection of beliefs or practices mistakenly regarded as being based on scientific method.

    Scientific method: noun; a method of procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses.

    https://www.gofundme.com/mwmvf-is-the-earth-flat

    The highest form of ignorance is when you reject something you don't know anything about.

    Wayne Dyer
  • EvidenceEvidence 789 Pts
    Erfisflat 

    I don't have an issue with most of your assessment.  Perhaps though to further explain I might politely add...

    "So you see, there are no three-gods but One God, as in the image Adam. Then there is the His Holy Spirit searching out from the Infinite Wisdom of God to help us, and then there is His son Word, .. who:
    John 1:14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth."

    I agree that there are not three-gods (a polytheistic theology) in the Bible, but we do have what some have called a Godhead.

    The Godhead (the Trinity) is a complex bit of scripture, many of authors over several millennia have written extensively on the subject trying to describe how the Father, the Son, and the Spirit are One, but yet three separate entities.  The Bible is vague on the subject and has only revealed a few passages concerning the concept. The best description I know of to describe what the Godhead is comprised of three distinct personalities, but oneness in thought and mind.  I other words there is One God, One Christ, and One Spirit as illustrated in Eph 4.4-6 by Paul.

    Eph 4:4-6 
     There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling; one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

    The one body is in reference to Christ Chruch or the New Testament Chruch.  You already pointed out John 1, we also see the mentioning of the Godhead in 1 John 5.6-12

    We also have a physical manifestation of the Godhead in recorded in Mat 3.16-17 and Lk 3.21-22; when Jesus is baptized by John the Baptist.  Witnesses here is the voice of God from the heavens, the Holy Spirit descending down upon Jesus.  

    "The Trinity gods were created by the mock Christian Religion along with thousands of their denominations. It is time that Believers go back following Jesus Christ who is the Way, the Truth and the Life, .. and get out of the Babylon of all Religions created by the RCC and called the derogatory name "Christian"!

    Just as stated in Eph 4.4-6 there is only one church, Christ's church and those are the followers of the Apostles' doctrine.  It is the one faith, there are no denominations spoken of in the Bible and I agree that they are all perversions man-made doctrines that have twisted the scriptures in some shape, form or fashion.  The RCC was the first denomination created several hundred years after the apostles established Christ church and recorded the New Testament.  

    "Keep the Bible and the God of the Bible, along with our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, and only drop the name Christian, and the gods that represents Christianity!"


    Thank you @with_all_humility, in the past 20 years, this is as close as ANYONE under the title Christian has come to in agreeing with me. (and I believe you were responding to my post, not @Erfisflat, right? It's OK, I don't mind, it's an honor actually, because Erfisflat got evidence, .. (pun intended)

    with-all-humility said: I agree that there are not three-gods (a polytheistic theology) in the Bible, but we do have what some have called a Godhead.

    The Godhead (the Trinity) is a complex bit of scripture, many of authors over several millennia have written extensively on the subject trying to describe how the Father, the Son, and the Spirit are One, but yet three separate entities.  The Bible is vague on the subject and has only revealed a few passages concerning the concept. The best description I know of to describe what the Godhead is comprised of three distinct personalities, but oneness in thought and mind.  I other words there is One God, One Christ, and One Spirit as illustrated in Eph 4.4-6 by Paul.

    Yes, as you said that the Trinity doctrine is very complex, but to understand God, and His plan for us through Christ is not. God is not a god of confusion, .. remember?
    To say: Father, the son and Spirit are One, .. capital 'O', as in "the same person" we are adding to the Bible,

    John 14:28 You have heard Me say to you, ‘I am going away and coming back to you.’ If you loved Me, you would rejoice because I said, ‘I am going to the Father,’ for My Father is greater than I.

    If Christ is the Godhead (as the Trinity tries to make him out to be: God), how is the Father greater than him?
    Now please brother, read Ephesians 4 again, only this time, try outside of this Trinity doctrine, which is exactly what it say it is, a man made doctrine, which we are warned about!

    Ephesians 4:1 I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you to walk worthy of the calling with which you were called, 2 with all lowliness and gentleness, with longsuffering, bearing with one another in love, 3 endeavoring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. 4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling; 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6 one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

    There is one body - the Church as you also said (but I tell you it is NOT the "Christian Church"!)
    There is one Spirit - which is the one Jesus Himself was taught by, who comes from who? The Father, right? Please read the following carefully, because I KNOW how indoctrination works, and even after all these years it "rings" in my ears, .. like that little devil sitting there on my shoulder whispering in my ears.
    There is one Lord - raised up as the King of kings and Lord of lords, Jesus Christ.
    There is one faith - as taught by Gods Holy Spirit through Christ-John 14:44
    There is one baptism - in the name of Jesus Christ, and NOT three like in the Trinity-, like one baptism in the father, one in the son and one in the spirit which was always the mighty Mary that Christians pray to.
    Now verse 6 puts everything in perspective: ".. one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all."

    1 Timothy 6:3 "If anyone teaches otherwise and does not consent to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which accords with godliness, 4 he is proud, knowing nothing, but is obsessed with disputes and arguments over words, from which come envy, strife, reviling, evil suspicions, 5 useless wranglings of men of corrupt minds and destitute of the truth, who suppose that godliness is a means of gain. From such withdraw yourself."

    John 14:44 Then Jesus cried out and said, “He who believes in Me, believes not in Me but in Him who sent Me. 45 And he who sees Me sees Him who sent Me.

    This is how we should walk (which I fail in miserably), and talk, that whoever sees/hears us, should be seeing/hearing God in us. Jesus made this clear throughout those three and a half years he was preaching and teaching! No matter how hard the Jews tried to convict him of blasphemy (which is for anyone comparing himself as an equal with God, which is exactly what the Trinity does) .. yet he kept denying and correcting them on it.

    "Look!" said the Jews, .. "he makes himself equal with God! What more proof do we need, kill him!"
    What did Jesus say (paraphrasing): "Whoa there, I said I am the son of God. If you want to accuse, accuse David (whom they held in very high esteem) who said "you are gods"

    Psalm 82:1 God stands in the congregation of the mighty;
    He judges among the gods.
    .. 5 They do not know, nor do they understand;
    They walk about in darkness;
    All the foundations of the earth are unstable.

    6 I said, “You are gods,
    And all of you are children of the Most High.
    7 But you shall die like men,
    And fall like one of the princes.”

    OK, so what does "Godhead" really mean?

    Godhead
    noun
    noun
    1. God.
      • divine nature.
      • informal
        an adored, admired, or influential person; an idol.
    Remember that after 1,700 years of "Christian Rule" any reference to God, His son Word aka Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit is interpreted through "Christian Doctrine" The Godhead is not God, but, someone representing God, in this case it's Jesus Christ who the Father deified, or raised above all principalities and powers. "All knee shall bow to him", "If you seen me, you seen the Father" etc. Just like the Fiery Angel God spoke through to Moses, he did not confuse the Angel with God, Moses knew that God was in him.  Same with Joseph who the Pharaoh placed second Only to himself, but people knew he was not Pharaoh.

    John 12:49 For I have not spoken on My own authority; but the Father who sent Me gave Me a command, what I should say and what I should speak. 50 And I know that His command is everlasting life. Therefore, whatever I speak, just as the Father has told Me, so I speak.”

    There is NO authority above God, no matter what form He choses to communicate to us through.


    With-all-humility - The one body is in reference to Christ Chruch or the New Testament Chruch.  You already pointed out John 1, we also see the mentioning of the Godhead in 1 John 5.6-12

    1 John 5:7 For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one.   This was added by the Trinitarians.

    A Warning - to the RCC who created a mock version of the road which Early Believers (NOT Christians) walked on which they called; "the Way" which our Creator God established by sending His son Word aka Jesus Christ into the world John 3:16, .. John 14:6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me."

    Revelation 22:18 For I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book; 19 and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the Book of Life, from the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.


    The proper version would be:
    1 John 5:6 This Son of God is Yeshua Christ, who came by water and blood. He didn’t come with water only, but with water and with blood. The Spirit is the one who verifies this, because the Spirit is the truth. 7 There are three witnesses: 8 the Spirit, the water, and the blood. These three witnesses agree. NOG-version

    with-all-humility - I don't believe one needs to drop the name Christian since it is used to refer to a follower of Christ and Apostles' doctine...However, there are many who profess to be Christians but they are followers of false doctrines.  Many need not fool themselves but instead examine themselves and ensure they are keeping Christ Law.  For it was at the sermon of the mount that He spoke...


    <continued in next post>
  • EvidenceEvidence 789 Pts
    @Erfisflat ;
    Evidence

    <continued from previous post>

    "The Trinity gods were created by the mock Christian Religion along with thousands of their denominations. It is time that Believers go back following Jesus Christ who is the Way, the Truth and the Life, .. and get out of the Babylon of all Religions created by the RCC and called the derogatory name "Christian"!

    Just as stated in Eph 4.4-6 there is only one church, Christ's church and those are the followers of the Apostles' doctrine.  It is the one faith, there are no denominations spoken of in the Bible and I agree that they are all perversions man-made doctrines that have twisted the scriptures in some shape, form or fashion.  The RCC was the first denomination created several hundred years after the apostles established Christ church and recorded the New Testament.  

    "Keep the Bible and the God of the Bible, along with our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, and only drop the name Christian, and the gods that represents Christianity!"

    I don't believe one needs to drop the name Christian since it is used to refer to a follower of Christ and Apostles' doctine...However, there are many who profess to be Christians but they are followers of false doctrines.  Many need not fool themselves but instead examine themselves and ensure they are keeping Christ Law.  For it was at the sermon of the mount that He spoke...

    Mat 7:21-23  "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.  Many will say to Me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?'  And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!'

    Good stuff, I'm not up on the Flat Earth Theory, so I'll have to add that to my list of things to read about.  


    NOT CHRISTIAN - or any other “Religion” get out while there is time!!!

    Exodus 20:3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

    The RCC under the pagan gods worshipping Emperor Constantine is the founder of the plural multi-gods Christian Religion and the Trinity-Doctrine.

    Get out of her my people, Christ is calling you back to before the history of this bloody Christian Religion, to “the Way”, for Jesus said: “I am the Way, the Truth and the Life” NOT the “Christian Religion” and its tens of thousands of its denominations.

    Acts 11:26 And when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church, and taught much people. And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch.

    The Believers were first CALLED Christian in Antioch by the Gentiles, as a soft mockery, teasing, similar to how we refer to some people as “Goodie Two Shoes”.

    -The definition of a goody two shoes is a person who always does everything right and always follows the rules, so much so that it becomes annoying.

    Look, in Acts 11:26 it was the Gentiles who mock-called the Believers “Christian”, but in the Bible we see that they never referred to themselves as Christians, but followers of “The Way”!

    Acts 19:3 And about that time there arose a great commotion about “the Way”.


    Here we see King Agrippa mocking Paul:

    Acts 26:28 Then Agrippa said unto Paul, Almost thou persuadest me to be a Christian.

    (I can almost hear the laughter in the court!)

    And here we see how insulting and annoying it started to become to the Early Believers, or Disciples, those who were of “the Way”:

    1 Peter 4:16 Yet if any man suffer as a Christian, let him not be ashamed; but let him glorify God on this behalf.

    No True Believer who follows The Way would suffer for being called: “Hey you, .. Follower of the Way!”, .. but being mocked as a “Goodie Two Shoes aka Christian” can get really annoying.


    Paul persecuted "The Way", .. NOT the RCC Christians. The RCC under Constantine (who worshipped pagan gods) started a new version of "the Way" by naming his new Religion the mock name "Christian" and eventually killed all the Believers who opposed his Trinity-gods! Look:

    Acts 9:2 and asked letters from him to the synagogues of Damascus, so that if he found any who were of "the Way", whether men or women, he might bring them bound to Jerusalem.

    Acts 16:17, Acts 18:25,26 Acts 19:9, Acts 29:23, Acts 24:14,22 Romans 3:17 talks about “the Way”, and how “the Way” will be perverted!”

    Please, .. GET OUT MY PEOPLE, OF THE CHRISTIAN RELIGION, and leave her Illuminati Triune-gods, back to "The Way" .. the Truth and the Life!!! There is but one God, the Infinite and Eternal One, who had a son He named Word aka Jesus Christ. There can not be anything beside Infinite.

    John 14:6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me."


    Satan created another way, through Religions and their own doctrines, and the biggest is the RCC created Christian Religion

    2 Peter 2:15 They have forsaken ‘the right way’ and gone astray, following ‘the way of Balaam’ (RCC Christian) the son of Beor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness;

    Be Holy, Not Christian - follow the Way, and not the plural-gods Christian Religion

    2 Corinthians 6:11 O Corinthians! We have spoken openly to you, our heart is wide open. 12 You are not restricted by us, but you are restricted by your own affections. 13 Now in return for the same (I speak as to children), you also be open. 

    14 Do not be unequally yoked together with unbelievers. For what fellowship has righteousness with lawlessness? And what communion has light with darkness? 15 And what accord has Christ with Belial? Or what part has a believer with an unbeliever? 16 And what agreement has the temple of God with idols? For you are the temple of the living God. As God has said:

    “I will dwell in them, And walk among them. I will be their God, And they shall be My people.”


    Take a look at any Christian Forums, they keep deleting my posts, and Ban me if I continue to show proof against the Trinity-gods Doctrine.
    Here is one Warning example:

    Warning!
    Your post quoted below was recently reported for staff review. Our staff reviewed the reported post in the thread. (..)

    After careful review our moderating team has reached consensus that a warning is being issued as your post made was in violation of the following CF rule:

    Blasphemy and Contempt of Christianity:
    It is considered blasphemy to insult or mock Christianity or any part of the Trinity-Father (God), Son (Jesus) and the Holy Spirit. Honest debate about the nature of God and Christian Theology is allowed, but derogatory remarks are not. Contemptuous remarks regarding Christianity or Christian practices are not allowed.

    Statement of Purpose and Off-Topic:
    Read and abide by each forum's Statement of Purpose; Statement of Purpose threads are sticky threads located at the top of the forum's page. Not all forums have a Statement of Purpose thread. Start threads that are relevant to that forum's stated purpose. Submit replies that are relevant to the topic of discussion.

    From the CF rules page: Notes:
    Unorthodox Christian theology may only be discussed in the Controversial Christian Theology forum. These unorthodox topics do not directly oppose the Nicene Creed, but are not considered to be orthodox on CF. These unorthodox topics may not contradict the Nicene Creed. Non-Trinitarianism may only be discussed in the Outreach category forums. Gnosticism may not be discussed in any CF forums. The Controversial Christian Theology forum is open to Christian members only (faith groups list).

    Staff removed your post from this thread for SOP violation; and contempt of Christianity; mocking the Trinity. Non-Trinitarianism may only be discussed in the Outreach category forums; as noted above.

    This is your 1st active warning.

    Please be aware that each unexpired warning accumulates one point each. Three points worth of unexpired warnings on your record will result in a one month sitewide ban from CF. Four points on your record will result in a three month sitewide ban from CF.

    Please take some time to review our Sitewide Rules before making any further posts. You should also review the Moderation Protocol for Christian Forums.

    If you would like to have this warning reviewed by an Administrator, please open an appeal in the Support Area.

    As you can see that the very Foundation of the Christian Religion is the Trinity Doctrine and Not-Jesus Christ.
    It is considered derogatory, blasphemy and contempt to speak against the Trinity, even though the atheists, witches, warlocks are allowed to Post Debates that mock any part of the Bible, God, the Holy Spirit and His son Jesus Christ, but any comment (which included proof as I have) against this man-made doctrine is strictly forbidden!


    This is not about the Believers who, as I have been raised Christian, but it's about the Truth. The only thing that Christians have to realize is that Christianity was NOT part of the Early Believers who were of The Way, but made by a very pagan, and many gods worshipping Religion called Catholic, Roman Catholic, and if anyone cares to look into their 1,700 year bloody, torturous, child molesting, women hating, World conquering, greedy perverted  history will quickly find that it is NOT the Holy Spirit that is guiding them, and that the god in Christianity is Lucifer himself.

    There are Christian Denominations who go by the name "the Way", but they are still Christian, and like the JW's, have their own gods that they worship.

    Please look at this video (with a grain of salt as we should every YouTube video)



    God bless you.
  • God instituted the death penalty for a variety of hu,man rights abuses such as torture, murder, and rape.
    Evidence
    https://www.blueletterbible.org/ Feel free to click my signature for Bible study. That's what it's there for!
    http://prewrathrapture.com/
    https://prewrathministries.org/













  • EvidenceEvidence 789 Pts
    God instituted the death penalty for a variety of hu,man rights abuses such as torture, murder, and rape.
    Hello @YeshuaBought
    And then God sent His son Word into the world, so those of us who are with Christ can't kill anyone for any reason. But the Law still stands for those who are not IN Christ, and human rights abuses are dealt with by the Law. Unfortunately, the god of this earth has a very different view of human rights abuses than God gave to Moses.
  • @with_all_humility
    There may be stories about woman and might have been women in power, but men wrote the stories and men USUALLY have more power.

    "There are 10 of thousands of ancient manuscripts that testify to scriptures" Still stories written by man.

    "as well as achelogical evidence" Show me a single piece of evidence that proves a god exists.

    "you've dismissed all of this evidence based on what?" Based on the fact none of it PROVES a god exists.
    Oh yes, here is the typical defense to answer no questions...Give me proof of a spiritual deity.  Well, I will never be able to answer your question to the extent that you will be satisfied.  In fact, the scriptures speak of this...

    1Corithians 2:6-16:

    However, we speak wisdom among those who are mature, yet not the wisdom of this age, nor of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing. But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God ordained before the ages for our glory, which none of the rulers of this age knew; for had they known, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

    But as it is written:

    “Eye has not seen, nor ear heard,

    Nor have entered into the heart of man

    The things which God has prepared for those who love Him.”

    But God has revealed them to us through His Spirit. For the Spirit searches all things, yes, the deep things of God.  For what man knows the things of a man except for the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so, no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God.  Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God.

    These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual.  But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.  But he who is spiritual judges all things, yet he himself is rightly judged by no one.  For “who has known the mind of the Lord that he may instruct Him?” But we have the mind of Christ.


    Evidence
  • @Evidence

    Thanks for the feedback, appreciate your insight into early New Testament followers.  I have never studied the use of the "the Way" and "Christian" from my cursory review I found that Luke first introduces the term "the Way" in reference to Saul and his persecution of believers.  

    Act 9:1-2  Then Saul, still breathing threats and murder against the disciples of the Lord, went to the high priest and asked letters from him to the synagogues of Damascus, so that if he found any who were of the Way, whether men or women, he might bring them bound to Jerusalem.

    Adame Clarke states this about "who were of the Way":  "That is, this religion, for so דרך derec in Hebrew, and ὁδος, hodos, in Hellenistic Greek, are often to be understood. דרך יהוה derec Yehovah, the way of the Lord, implies the whole of the worship due to Him and prescribed by Himself: the way or path in which He wills men to walk, that they may get safely through life, and finally, attain everlasting felicity. The Jewish writers designate the whole doctrine and practice of Christianity by a similar expression, דרך הנוצרים derec hanotsarim, the way, doctrine, or sect of the Christians." [1]

    So according to Clarke, it was the Jews who term the word "the Way" to refer to the those who adopted Christ's and the Apostle's doctrine.  

    According to John Polhill: 

    He states: "Luke appended the interesting note to v. 26 that the term “Christian” was first applied to disciples in Antioch. This may be of more significance than might appear on first sight. The term only occurs in two other places in the New Testament (Acts 26:28; 1 Pet 4:16). In all three instances, it is a term used by outsiders to designate Christians. Evidently, the term was not originally used by Christians of themselves. They preferred terms like “believers, disciples, brothers.” The first extensive usage by a Christian writer to designate fellow believers was by Ignatius, bishop of Antioch, around the turn of the second century. The term (Christianoi) consists of the Greek word for Christ/Messiah (Christos) with the Latin ending ianus, meaning belonging to, identified by. Examples of similar formations are Herodianoi, partisans of Herod, and Augustianoi, the zealotic followers of Nero. The term was often used by Roman writers to designate followers of Christ. The early usage in Antioch is perhaps indicative of two things. For one, it is the sort of term Gentiles would have used and perhaps reflects the success of Antioch’s Gentile mission. Gentiles were dubbing their fellow Gentiles who became followers of Christ “Christians.” Second, it reflects that Christianity was beginning to have an identity of its own and no longer was viewed as a totally Jewish entity. Again, the success among Gentiles would have hastened this process in Antioch.

    How is one to relate the two “Gentile missions” of Acts 10–11, that is, Peter’s and that of the Antioch church? In all likelihood, the two overlapped in time, with the Antioch witness covering several years. On all appearances, the Antioch mission involved much greater numbers (cf. v. 21). And certainly, it was the Antioch church that was the great “Gentile mission” church in sponsoring Paul’s missionary activity. Peter did not follow up his conversion of Cornelius by a personal mission to the Gentiles. All indications are that he continued primarily to witness to the Jews (cf. Gal 2:7). Still, the experience with Cornelius was essential. It convinced the leading apostle of the legitimacy of the Gentile mission, and he, in turn, became its prime advocate with the other apostles and the Jerusalem church (cf. 11:1–18; 15:7–11). In a real sense, it paved the way with the church as a whole for Paul’s mission to the Gentiles." [2]

    While the name Christian did start from those outside the church, I have not found any commentary to insinuate that the term was derogatory.  If that was the case, why would have early church fathers adopt the name by the 2nd century in their writings?  The 2nd century would have been before the establishment of the RCC. The Catholic Church did not exist until 590 AD [3] and split in 1054 AD when a formal split occurred between the Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox churches. Of course, this division remains in effect till this day.

    I agree that the teachings of the RCC do not hold true to that of the New Testament and it is an apostasy to the teachings of Christ and the Apostles doctrine.


    [1] Clarke, Adam. "Commentary on Acts 9:102". "The Adam Clarke Commentary". https://www.studylight.org/commentaries/acc/acts-9.html. 1832.

    [2] Polhill, J. B. (1992). Acts (Vol. 26, pp. 273–274). Nashville: Broadman & Holman Publishers.

    [3] The Moody Handbook of Theology, the official beginning of the Roman Catholic church occurred in 590 CE, with Pope Gregory I

    [4] http://www.biblebelievers.com/jmelton/Catholic.html  



  • @Evidence

    "Yes, as you said that the Trinity doctrine is very complex, but to understand God, and His plan for us through Christ is not. God is not a god of confusion, .. remember?
    • I agree God is not the author of any confusion, what He revealed about the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit is sufficiently explained in the scriptures.

    "To say: Father, the son and Spirit are One, ... capital 'O', as in "the same person" we are adding to the Bible," 
    • Correct, they are not one person, but three, as manifested during Christ baptism in the Jordan.
    "There is NO authority above God, no matter what form He chooses to communicate to us through."
    • This is true, and evident in the scriptures.  Christ often reminded people to not exalt him above the Father who was in heaven.  When asked about the end of time, he replied ""But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, but My Father only." (Mat 24.36)
    "NOG-version"
    • I'm not familiar with this abbreviation.  What translation of the Bible is this you are referencing?



  • EvidenceEvidence 789 Pts
    @Evidence

    Thanks for the feedback, appreciate your insight into early New Testament followers.  I have never studied the use of the "the Way" and "Christian" from my cursory review I found that Luke first introduces the term "the Way" in reference to Saul and his persecution of believers. 


    Thank you for your kind response my friend @with_all_humility ;

    You said: While the name Christian did start from those outside the church, I have not found any commentary to insinuate that the term was derogatory.  If that was the case, why would have early church fathers adopt the name by the 2nd century in their writings?  The 2nd century would have been before the establishment of the RCC. The Catholic Church did not exist until 590 AD [3] and split in 1054 AD when a formal split occurred between the Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox churches. Of course, this division remains in effect till this day.

    Evidence - The history of the Catholic Church begins with Jesus Christ and His teachings (c. 4 BC – c. AD 30), and the Catholic Church is a continuation of the early Christian community established by Jesus. The Church considers its bishops to be the successors to Jesus's apostles and the Church's leader, the Bishop of Rome (also known as the Pope) to be the sole successor to Saint Peter, who ministered in Rome in the first century AD, after his appointment by Jesus as head of the church. By the end of the 2nd century, bishops began congregating in regional synods to resolve doctrinal and policy issues. By the 3rd century, the bishop of Rome began to act as a court of appeals for problems that other bishops could not resolve - Wikipedia

                                                    
    Emperor Constantine I established the rights of the Church in the year 315AD

    Jesus did NOT establish any Christian community, nor does the triune natured "Three-In-One-gods" mentioned in either the O.T. or the New.
    God is One, and according to the Bible He beget a son Word John 1:1-
    The Word became flesh because John 3:16 .. and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth. NOT god #2

    1 John 4:1 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world. 2 By this you know the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God,3 and every spirit that does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God. And this is the spirit of the Antichrist, which you have heard was coming, and is now already in the world.

    It doesn't say we must confess; "Jesus was God".
    As you can see from historical records regarding the RCC, we know who was "already in the world", and they took the derogatory, name calling word; Christian, and implemented their pagan gods into the Bible through a man-made Doctrine called the Trinity. And now for over 1,700 years the Bible, and our Creator along with His son Word have been interpreted and understood through the Christian-Trinity Doctrine.
    Ask anyone on the street in any part of the world as to who Jesus was, or who wrote the N.T. and they will tell you: "Jesus was God in Christianity", and that the N.T. is Christian writings.

    My dear friend, I have fought this doctrine for many, many years, and continue to do so, and I pray you see that this Trinity doctrine is the Foundation that the RCC created Christian Religion. It is what Christianity, with its bloody history was built on, .. and you know that if you question the Trinity, you question Christianity. Now show me where in Scriptures does it say we must protect doctrines made by man, over Gods Word?

    So again, Jesus did not, nor did his Apostles create the Christian Religion with its plural gods doctrine. 

    As for John B. Polhill 
    John B. Polhill is the professor of New Testament at Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, Louisville, Kentucky.

    In other words, Professor Polhill is a "Christian", on top of that a Baptist who considers the man made Trinity Doctrine non-debatable just as 99% of Christians do. But questioning who God is, or who Jesus, or the Holy Spirit is, now that Christians are allowed to debate. But the Trinity, .. well that is considered heretical. Doesn't that in itself ring a bell? Do you know how many Early Believers were burnt at the stake, crucified, tortured to death and beheaded for not accepting the Trinity Doctrine? Entire city streets in three countries in Europe were flowing in blood as the reign of Christianity was being established.

                                        Image result for pic of constantines sword cross
    Constantine's sword


                                                               Image result for pic of constantines sword cross  Constantine's cross

    Image result for pic hungarian nazi red arrow cross Hungarian Nazi "Arrow Cross" 


    Related image
     This was in Hungary, and according to my dad, it was not staged. He would know, he was part of it.

    Image result for pic hungarian nazi red arrow cross
    One Heart - One Will
    "Forward to victory"

    Image result for pic hungarian nazi red arrow cross Rise of the fallen feather (notice Constantine's sword and the cross)


    with_all_humility - I agree that the teachings of the RCC do not hold true to that of the New Testament and it is an apostasy to the teachings of Christ and the Apostles doctrine.

    What you have to realize is that the RCC is the one that created the "Christian Religion", and that to be Christian, you MUST accept the plural gods of Christianity. This is why Christians don't want to accept the JW's as Christian because they don't accept the Trinity-gods. Even though they worship their own made up god with the name: Jehovah-Witness, and Jesus they made into an angel, or some Cherubim.

    Our war is not against flesh and blood, but against principalities ideologies that originate from the Prince of darkness to his Christian Mediums that graduated from Jesuit Schools of Divinity with a degree in Divination,  .. doctrines that pervert the Way, the Truth and the Life.
  • @Evidence

    Thanks for further explaining your position, there have been many apostates of the New Testament doctrine down through the millennia.  As pointed out before there is only one NT church and that is Christ's church or those who hold true to doctrine revealed in the New Testament.   There are an estimated 33,000 denominations in the world today, that means there are 33,000 false organizations calling themselves a church of the Lord.   

    To be a Denomination is to be a religious organization whose congregations are united in their adherence to its beliefs and practices.  In other words, a denomination is a group of churches organized under a central leadership or organization.   Examples:  RCC, Southern Baptist Convention, JW, Methodist and many more.  

    The pattern outlined in the New Testament was to establish local churches that were autonomous.  Not under a centralized governing body of bishops and or clergymen.  Each church was organized with its own local bishops/elders who did not influence another church/congregation.  We do see evidence of the apostles coming together for the Jerusalem Council (Act 15).  This was done by the apostles who existed on this Earth until 100 AD with the passing of John.  Remember that the apostles could bind or lose any requirement after the resurrection of Christ (Mat 16.19).  The authority did not carry over to bishops/elders; Paul gave Timothy and Titus some governing rules concerning this position in 1 Tim 3.1-7 and Tit 1.5-16.

    The organizing of a pope and bishop (which is another name for elder or shepherd) over many congregations is not found in the text and therefore not authorized.  Just as in Moses day (Deu 4.2) it also, holds true for the New Testament age (Rev 22.18) that no one will add to or take away from Gods word and His word is recorded for us today in the form of what we call the Bible.

    So, with that said, I do not believe that the Catholic church was established in 4 BC.  The Lord's church did not become in existence until after his death (Heb 9.16) and resurrection.  The church was found on the day after Pentecost as recorded in Act 2 when Peter first preached to the 3,000.  Ushering in the establishment of the New Testament church or the Lord's church or what the scriptures call Christ's church (Rom 16.16).

    I contend that any group of people who gather together and abided by the New Testament teachings and carry a name for the congregation that is scriptural are disciples of Christ.  We do not see churches named after men, apostles, or bishops.  The carry either geographical name (church or Corinth) or the name of the Lord or God i.e the church of God, the Lord's church, the church of Christ or Christ's church.  There is no mention Baptist, Methodist, Catholic or any other denomination.  

    "So again, Jesus did not, nor did his Apostles create the Christian Religion with its plural gods doctrine."  
    • I agree there is no plurality of gods taught in the Bible.  But there is a hierarchy which is God the Father, the son of God (Christ), and the Holy Spirit.  They are of the oneness of mind and do not contradict one another.  Each One speaks for the other, saying that Christ word and the word of the Holy Spirit are just as authoritative of God's for they each speak on behalf of God.  Thus being of Oneness.  

    "It doesn't say we must confess; "Jesus was God"."
    • We do not confess Christ as God, but we are to confess that Christ is Lord and raised from the dead or the third day and that he is the son of God. 
    • Rom 10:9  that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
    • Php 2:11  and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
    While John B. Polhill is a baptist (and I don't prescribe to the Baptist doctrine) is does not mean his historical account of the use of the word Christian is inaccurate.  There are many other scholars that reference the same recollection.  
  • EvidenceEvidence 789 Pts
    @Evidence

    Thanks for further explaining your position, there have been many apostates of the New Testament doctrine down through the millennia.  As pointed out before there is only one NT church and that is Christ's church or those who hold true to doctrine revealed in the New Testament.   There are an estimated 33,000 denominations in the world today, that means there are 33,000 false organizations calling themselves a church of the Lord.   

    To be a Denomination is to be a religious organization whose congregations are united in their adherence to its beliefs and practices.  In other words, a denomination is a group of churches organized under a central leadership or organization.   Examples:  RCC, Southern Baptist Convention, JW, Methodist and many more.  

    The pattern outlined in the New Testament was to establish local churches that were autonomous.  Not under a centralized governing body of bishops and or clergymen.  Each church was organized with its own local bishops/elders who did not influence another church/congregation.  We do see evidence of the apostles coming together for the Jerusalem Council (Act 15).  This was done by the apostles who existed on this Earth until 100 AD with the passing of John.  Remember that the apostles could bind or lose any requirement after the resurrection of Christ (Mat 16.19).  The authority did not carry over to bishops/elders; Paul gave Timothy and Titus some governing rules concerning this position in 1 Tim 3.1-7 and Tit 1.5-16.

    The organizing of a pope and bishop (which is another name for elder or shepherd) over many congregations is not found in the text and therefore not authorized.  Just as in Moses day (Deu 4.2) it also, holds true for the New Testament age (Rev 22.18) that no one will add to or take away from Gods word and His word is recorded for us today in the form of what we call the Bible.

    So, with that said, I do not believe that the Catholic church was established in 4 BC.  The Lord's church did not become in existence until after his death (Heb 9.16) and resurrection.  The church was found on the day after Pentecost as recorded in Act 2 when Peter first preached to the 3,000.  Ushering in the establishment of the New Testament church or the Lord's church or what the scriptures call Christ's church (Rom 16.16).

    Thanks again my Friend @with_all_humility I agree with everything you said here, and today, it is next to impossible to find a Bible (meaning O.T. and N.T.) believing group who are not "Christian".
    I have searched for 40 years now, I have found really close to the Bible Mennonite type of churches, or like the No Name Congregation, which is what I would refer to myself belonging to, .. this was a non-trinitarian church also known as the "Two by Twos", .. you know, referring to how the Lord sent out the seventy "two by two" which they believe they are remnants of. I went to that church, small congregation 100 max, with no building just renting a space, .. and just like the Quakers and Shakers, and found out that, like the Quakers, and the Amish, or any Christian church, .. the spirit that lead them was NOT Christ, nor the Holy Spirit, but man.

    Old photograph depicting three bearded men seated outdoors on a bench with the man in the center holding a small dog
    Prominent early Two by Twos preachers.
    Left to right: William Gill, William Irvine, George Walker

    What I'm saying is that just because a church is non-trinitarian, and hold the strictest doctrines of the Early Church doesn't mean they are lead by the Holy Spirit. And I tell you this with 100% conviction that No Christian church/congregation/group whatever they want to refer to themselves as, have the Holy Spirit.
    Just because a church teaches Biblical truths, or even strict teachings of Christ and the Apostles, and know the Bible forward and backward does not mean they worship Bible God, or Christ.

    About the RCC .. I just shown you what They Claim, but history shows otherwise. The RCC under Constantine established a New Religion that was dictated by Satan himself, which on the long run he would become God in the hearts and souls of men, .. and the Creator (which is why he had one of his minions a Jesuit Priest George Lemaitre to come up with the Big-Bang theory), which after 1,700 years his plan is coming to fruition. The unifying of all Religions, which of course were created by none other than Satan and his fallen followers.

    @Evidence ;

    I contend that any group of people who gather together and abided by the New Testament teachings and carry a name for the congregation that is scriptural are disciples of Christ.  We do not see churches named after men, apostles, or bishops.  The carry either geographical name (church or Corinth) or the name of the Lord or God i.e the church of God, the Lord's church, the church of Christ or Christ's church.  There is no mention Baptist, Methodist, Catholic or any other denomination.  

    "So again, Jesus did not, nor did his Apostles create the Christian Religion with its plural gods doctrine."  
    • I agree there is no plurality of gods taught in the Bible.  But there is a hierarchy which is God the Father, the son of God (Christ), and the Holy Spirit.  They are of the oneness of mind and do not contradict one another.  Each One speaks for the other, saying that Christ word and the word of the Holy Spirit are just as authoritative of God's for they each speak on behalf of God.  Thus being of Oneness.  

    Again my friend, you speak from Trinity-indoctrination.
    There is NO hierarchy with God. God is One, the Only Possible One, and there is None Besides Him the Infinite and Eternal Mind/Spirit. Unless you can show me how you could put something or someone next to or besides Infinite?

    God beget a son He named Word, through whom He created all things.
    But now that the son Word became flesh, and fulfilled everything that were written in the scroll in Heaven that no one could open,

    Revelation 5:1 And I saw in the right hand of Him who sat on the throne a scroll written inside and on the back, sealed with seven seals. 2 Then I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, “Who is worthy to open the scroll and to loose its seals?” 3 And no one in heaven or on the earth or under the earth was able to open the scroll, or to look at it.

    4 So I wept much, because no one was found worthy to open and read the scroll, or to look at it. 5 But one of the elders said to me, “Do not weep. Behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has prevailed to open the scroll and to loose its seven seals.”


    .. God "raised him above all Angels and all powers and principalities both in Heaven and here on Earth. God did that.
    God can use even me to do His work, .. but I would never be a part of some hierarchy with God. God does not, nor can He share His God-ness, but He can use anyone He chooses to do His work, starting with His son Word, to .. even Pharaoh.

    No one speaks for God, Jesus made it clear that:

    John 8:28 Then Jesus said to them, “When you lift up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am He, and that I do nothing of Myself; but as My Father taught Me, I speak these things.

    Now Trinitarians will try to make this out to be that Jesus is the I Am, as in capitalizing the word "he" and the word "myself", ..  ignoring what is written right after that: ".. I do nothing of Myself; but as My Father taught Me, I speak these things".
    It should be:
    John 8:28 Then Jesus said to them, “When you lift up the son of man, then you will know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father taught me, I speak these things".

    The Holy Spirit is Gods "search engine", just as our spirit in us searches our hearts and minds:

    1 Corinthians 2:10 But God has revealed them to us through His Spirit. For the Spirit searches all things, yes, the deep things of God. 11 For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God.
    12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God.

    So if we interpret the Bible through Christian doctrine, the Spirit of God cannot be in us, instead it's the "spirit of the world" 2.5 billion Christian strong that we'll interpret the Bible through, which is what the Three-gods-in-one teaches.

    @Evidence ;

    I contend that any group of people who gather together and abided by the New Testament teachings and carry a name for the congregation that is scriptural are disciples of Christ.  We do not see churches named after men, apostles, or bishops.  The carry either geographical name (church or Corinth) or the name of the Lord or God i.e the church of God, the Lord's church, the church of Christ or Christ's church.  There is no mention Baptist, Methodist, Catholic or any other denomination.  

    "So again, Jesus did not, nor did his Apostles create the Christian Religion with its plural gods doctrine."  
    • I agree there is no plurality of gods taught in the Bible.  But there is a hierarchy which is God the Father, the son of God (Christ), and the Holy Spirit.  They are of the oneness of mind and do not contradict one another.  Each One speaks for the other, saying that Christ word and the word of the Holy Spirit are just as authoritative of God's for they each speak on behalf of God.  Thus being of Oneness.  

    Yes I agree, "There is no mention Baptist, Methodist, Catholic or any other denomination", so like Christ early Followers, we too just follow the Way, the Truth and the Life.

    There is no Hierarchy either with God, only God. No one instructs God, .. everyone from the Holy Spirit and Gods son now Jesus Christ to the smallest of Angels serves Him, and does His Will, ..  but of course He gave us all Free Will.

    John 12:49 For I have not spoken on My own authority; but the Father who sent me gave me a command, what I should say and what I should speak.

    Speaking on Gods behalf is what Christian do, we Believers are followers of the Way, so we just follow because we know God only want's good for us.
    I trust in my Fathers Infinite Wisdom!

    God bless you.
    etgang5
  • LogicVaultLogicVault 100 Pts
    edited July 14
    @with_all_humility
    "Well, I will never be able to answer your question to the extent that you will be satisfied.  In fact, the scriptures speak of this..." At that point you can just stop. I do not care what your stories say. They were written by humans, not a god. Provide absolute proof that a god exists or you have no grounds to make any claims in regards to religion.
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