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For the record Scott Kolbaba also wrote a case study on the miracle and worked at the Mayo Clinic also. The doctor's note is by Harold D Adolph, who was one of her doctor's. He wrote an article about the miracle along with another one of her doctors, Mark D Williams in 1999. So yes, these are real.
The video contains an interview with Barbara Cummiskey Snyder. She is interviewed by former investigative reporter for the Chicago Tribune, Lee Stobel, who wrote a book on miracles.
I have not made up stuff. Her miracle account is well known and well documented. You are being dishonest and once again making up a conspiracy theory rather than addressing the evidence put before you.
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There is no credible evidence to support the existence of supernatural healings. Any apparent healing that occurs through supernatural means can be explained by other factors, such as the placebo effect, misdiagnosis, coincidence, or fraud.
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I will repeat them for your convenience:
1. "Her doctor is telling the story that he did not witness himself, just based on her words - and that is what convinces you that divine intervention took place here, rather than, say, an act of witchhood? Would a witch not conjure a fancy story like this in order to gain acknowledgment of the local church and hide her witchy nature?"
2. "If I tell you, for instance, of my (real) dream where I found myself in the realm of the Spider Queen Lolth who told me that I must live a fun and exciting life that she can enjoy watching, lest I end up in her horrifying realm under my death - will you conclude that I am the chosen of the evil goddess? Why or why not?"
I have not talked about any "conspiracy theories", I have not made any of the 7 claims you listed, and I have not claimed that "X was not a miracle" about anything you mentioned. Not only do you refuse to answer my simple and direct questions, but you also keep putting words in my mouth and question positions that you attribute to me, yet that I do not hold and have never expressed.
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Guess what. Of coarse he’s not going to answer your questions. And also guess what. That news paper clip is a made up fraud. And guess what else. All the sites he posted are spams and the doctors don’t exist and the ones that do leed to spoof sites.
And also guess what. Just sayin is a total fraud troll who goes on other debating sites.
And also guess what. Just like all the other trolls that have done the same thing here before by repeating over and over and not responding he is a bout to be kicked off . A little birds told me that and I’m giving it a week before that peace of dog mess gets the boot.
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You can read Barbara Cummiskey's own account in her own words at http://nebula.wsimg.com/26f08202c2c1c87f2521b6bf967dcdaf?AccessKeyId=B72A5E64E6835B2F4367&disposition=0&alloworigin=1 pages 62-64.
You can read about her testimony for yourself. Here are just two books available on Amazon:
The Case for Miracles: A Journalist Investigates Evidence for the Supernatural
andMiracles Today
In Miracles Today, her story is told in the introduction, so you won't have to read far.You can read her story in Christianity Today, Dec. 16, 1983:
One Who Took up Her Bed and Walked
You can watch her story on youtube:
If you would rather listen to a podcast, then you can listen here:
https://podtail.com/en/podcast/life-money-and-hope-with-chris-brown/episode-46-miracles-still-happen/
The only other debate site that I ever post is kialo - and that site isn't set up as this one is. On that, it is more organizing a debate with bullet points and topics. I don't think I have posted there for 6 months, not that I think it matters.
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If it bothers you that her doctor is telling her story, then here it is in her own words:
http://nebula.wsimg.com/26f08202c2c1c87f2521b6bf967dcdaf?AccessKeyId=B72A5E64E6835B2F4367&disposition=0&alloworigin=1 pages 62-64.
I believe her story is credible because her doctor's validate her medical condition before and after her miracle. There are at least 4 doctor's on record:
Dr. Harold Adolph - her surgeon
Dr Thomas Marshall - internal organ doctor
Dr. Donal Edwards
Dr Scott Kolbaba
This is from Thomas Marshall's account immediately after the miracle:
All four doctor's have Mayo Clinic experience. That's not too shabby. Does your witchdoctor have Mayo Clinic experience and 4 award winning doctor's to back up her claims? Now if you are calling her story a fake, you would have to believe that Cummiskey is lying, her 30 plus doctors were lying, her live in nursing assistant was lying, the Chicago Tribune was lying, ABC's That's Incredible show producers were lying, her medical records were altered, her family was lying, her church was lying, and numerous others were lying. It seems much more likely that they all are telling the truth, and that you are the one mistaken.
After your Spider Queen dream where you able to walk for the first time in 7 years without atrophy? Or did you suddenly see when you had been blind for years? Cause that would really help your claim. And that is what happened to Cummiskey. Does your Spider Queen have 17 years of medical records to verify her story? Barbara Cummiskey does. Does your Spider Queen have staffs at 3 different hospitals that corroborate her story? Barbara Cummiskey has several Mayo Clinic doctor's who vouch for her account. Cummiskey's claim is backed up by her doctor's, her medical records, and the testimony of numerous people who know her. Does your Spider Queen have that kind of evidence to support your claim that you are her chosen?
As I see it Barbara Cummiskey's claim has several things going for it that your spider queen dream doesn't
1) Before hearing God she could not see, could not walk, was on a breathing tube, and food catheter. After hearing God she could walk, could see, could breath, and her intestines worked and her MS was gone.
2) Her story is supported by extensive medical records and the testimony of several credible doctors, all of which claim there is no medical explanation for her recovery.
Now, produce your evidence that Cummiskey's miracle can be reproduced by natural means. I'm still waiting.
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Thats right. Its a story and so is Peter Pan and neither of them have one bit of substance of truth. Not one bit.
And like MayCaeser said and I said you have been found out posting bogus links that lead to spam and scams. The doctors links are spam . But you have not answered either one of us. Because you know very well that what we are saying is 100% true. We both did the research. Now will you stop your persistent lying and deceiving and get the heck off of this site.
No body need worthless lying scum like you around pushing such rubbish and offending honest people who are ill and the hundreds of thousands of people who pray and nothing happens.
Of coarse you will not reply to the specific findings and truth we have uncovered about your meaningless and made up rubbish and you never have.
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Thank you for that. I checked the sites and doctors names that this lying nit posted and they are all frauds or spams. One link to the doctor site captures your details and sends heaps of worthless spams and tries to phish your details, other sites are bloked and the others are all biased editorials put out by extreme religious scammers. This lying nit has totally no scrubbles and will keep on pumping out his rubbish and offending the intelligence and decency of people who are genuinely ill.
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I believe her story is credible because her doctor's validate her medical condition before and after her miracle. There are at least 4 doctor's on record:
Dr. Harold Adolph - her surgeon.........
Dr Harold has the cure fir all of lifes ilnesses in his latest book lets talk about multi millionaire Dr Harold Apdolph and look at his claims where he said people should be more " holyistic".......
While Christians tend to avoid unhealthy practices such as smoking, drinking alcohol, drug use and promiscuity, they often disregard attitudes that can produce illness. Missionary physician Dr. Harold Paul Adolph contends that by adjusting his or her outlook to become a "holystic" one, a person can follow God and life instead of opting for sin and sickness.
Although acknowledging that not every illness is spiritually or psychologically induced, Adolph examines in Holyistic Attitudes how hatred, guilt, fear, and discontent can wreak havoc on a person's body. He explores the results of each attitude with numerous Scripture verses and examples drawn from the Bible, history, and his own experiences in Africa, Asia and America. In each section, Adolph provides a spiritual prescription to help eliminate or improve the attitude and thus revitalize the body.
After looking at what can adversely affect health, Adolph moves on to examine "concepts, thoughts, and dispositions that can strengthen our spiritual health." He points out that developing healthy thoughts is not always easy or immediate, but it can be done with God's help, as many people can testify. Adolph encourages the reader to develop a world view that embraces the God of the Bible--the God who "is willing and able to reach out to us at all times."
Most of all, Adolph challenges each person to find God's plan for his or her life. He asserts, "By striving to make our work and activities God-planned, God-purposed, God-timed and even God-interrupted, our lives will be infused with a sense of God's destiny for us." Though such a goal seems almost unattainable, this book provides practical steps to help each reader along the way to better health.
ROFLMAO ....
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Thank you for admitting that you lost and that I have proved that prayer works. That is in essence what you did when you knowingly lied and said my sources were "frauds or spams". it is obvious that you have no valid argument. Your actions are tantamount to an unconditional surrender.
Anyone following along and unsure of whom to believe, you can either look at the links I provided or do a quick Google search for 'Barbara Cummiskey' for yourself.
I've mentioned the book Miracles Today by Craig Keener. Here he is at Biola University discussing Barbara Cummiskey's miracle:
You can read the account from his book in this PDF sample. pages 6-10 (corresponding to the preface).
https://www.pcabookstore.com/samples/15426.pdf
An excerpt from those pages:
You can see former investigative journalist and author of the Case for Miracles, Lee Strobel, interview Barbara Cummiskey at 40:40 of this video:
Her surgeon, Dr Harold P Adolph tells Barbara Cummiskey's story in his book:
Today's Decisions Tomorrow's Destiny
When you opponent has to blatantly lie about you and your sources you know you have completely and utterly proved your point. I accept your surrender.
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That this guy - the real Dr. David G Evans - ophthalmologist
was actually this guy:
Bishop Evans
I think he even posted the Bishop's church's income. LOL.
Dee, thank you for admitting that Harold P Adolph is a surgeon and that he has written books. That is supplemental evidence to my evidence that he was Barbara Cummiskey's doctor. Thank you.
Some statements from Dr. Harold P Adolph on Barbara Cummiskey
From Miracles Today:
Here is Dr Harold Adolph's signed medical statement that Barbara Cummiskey, after being prayed for, had no signs of MS.
Here is what the doctor said to the Chicago Tribune, 'Instant Recovery from a miracle', May 26, 1983 about the case:(see yellow highlighter)
Thank you for the unintended assist.
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Barbara's doctor certainly is a good source of any information on her medical condition. Is he a good source on the communication with god she claims to have experienced in her head? If so, I would like to hear why. If not, then his words on that account can be dismissed for the purposes of this discussion - although it is worth adding that the fact that he is willing to say those words which he knows very well cannot be verified makes me seriously question his medical integrity, which, in turn, casts doubts on his claims about her medical condition as well. Much like if I was cheating on my wife, she would be right to suspect me of telling untruths even when talking about the field of expertise I have an official accreditation in.
To your last point, in order to question the divine intervention experience described above, I do not at all need to hold any of the beliefs you listed. Since, by its nature, this experience was only available to her alone, she is the only one who can testify to its truthfulness, and anyone else who makes any claims on this is fantasizing. There is no need for any global conspiracy for this to be the case: all it takes is a few people getting overexcited and making claims outside of their domain of knowledge. Humans tend to get carried away like this when it is psychologically or socially convenient.
I will have to repeat my question once again since you have failed to address it for the N-th time. I will concretize it: when it comes to experiences that, by their very nature, cannot be verified by anyone other than the person having them - how do you decide whether the claims about them are to be accepted or not? When someone claims that they have been kidnapped by aliens and released later and adds that the aliens are advanced enough to erase any evidence of these events - how do you decide whether to take the person's word or not? This is what I am really interested in discussing. Particular events you have referenced are not as interesting as more foundational epistemological questions.
From what I can remember, I drank a lot the night before having that dream, yet next morning I woke up without any hangover whatsoever, in a blissful mood, motivated to work on my social skills. My then-roommates can vouch for both the evening and the morning experience as I discussed it with them. So am I the chosen one? And if not, then why? What would it take for you to accept me as the chosen one? If it was found that 0.01% of my DNA is that of a tarantula, would this convince you?
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They are frauds and spams and I clearly gave you the proof and evidence as you very well know so stop lying about your lying.You have totally refused to address the issue that both I and MayCaeser exposed. And you still totally refuse. And it doesn't matter how many times Barbara Grimboy articles appear. Reciting something in print does not make it right or accurate and no body ever said that including the so called doctors. who you very well know are fake and that has also been proven to you. The doctors website you posted is inaccessible and phishes, you know that very well. But even then it doesnt matter because all the doctors in those articles from your spam sites say that they cant explain why the woman jumped out of the wheel chair. So case closed.
You are a total fraud an a pushing absolutely fake and mythological crap and you know it and trying the dirty low down tactic of gas lighting by saying that those who catch you out are liars nis about as low as it gets.
If there is any thing lower and dishonest to push a load of crap Im sure you will find it. There is not an honest bone in your body, you continually fail to address the facts about your lowsy disgusting fake evidence. You are a total digust to humanity and an obscene insult to decent genuinely ill people. Sure Barbara Grimboy was sick all right. She was totally sick in the head for thinking any one except nits would believe her made up crap and total lies. She's about as low down and dishonest as all the other num nuts like you who suck in other num nuts and get off on them believing such ridiculous crap.
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You are always good for a laugh. Like when you went on a rampage that the blind woman who miraculously got her sight back had a doctor that turned into a black bishop on the weekends. That was classic. For those wondering, Dee falsely claimed:
Says you the guy who believes in resurrecting Zombies , virgin births , angels demons and talking snakes.
I falsely claimed nothing , you claimed there was no doctor Evans and when caught in yet another lie invented several Dr Evans and printed up blurred unreadable nonsense you claimed was evidence of his " credentials"
That this guy - the real Dr. David G Evans - ophthalmologist
You mean the one you claimed didn't exist?
I think he even posted the Bishop's church's income. LOL.
But you said he didn't exist?
Dee, thank you for admitting that Harold P Adolph is a surgeon and that he has written books. That is supplemental evidence to my evidence that he was Barbara Cummiskey's doctor. Thank you.
Yet another lie , I posted up a piece from the millionaire charlatans latest boasts regarding the latest piece of horse c-ap he has written promoting ......wait for it .......HOLYISTIC HEALTH CARE ........JUST BET JUST SAYIN CONTRIBUTES GENEROUSLY EACH WEEK TO THIS CROOKS LIFESTYLE FUNDS
Some statements from Dr. Harold P Adolph on Barbara Cummiskey
ROFLMAO WHY WOULD I BELIEVE ONE THING A CHARLATAN LIKE DR HOLYISTIC SAYS REGARDS ANOTHER CHRISTIAN LOON.
From Miracles Today:
YEAH CHAPTER 10 HOW TO MAKE MONEY FROM RELIGIOUS NUTS LIKE JUST SAYIN
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Well he has done that with all his links. He posts these uber dum sites that actually say nothing but make simpleton tards believe it does say something. And they are all editorial crap articles that quote doctors who get paid for saying totally nothing in realty. And then he gets totally tropo if you out him over it then ignores the reel evidence and makes up diversion s .
I have never seen any thing like it be for. This nit Carrie’s on like a loon and I have not herd any body on this site that has ever done that. I can’t recall any one at all who does that to try and support a totally lame prejudice argument. Like absolutely no one else has done that sort of un cosher stuff here have they.
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So there is the corroborating evidence of Joyce Jugan and Angela Crawford
So, to summarize your argument: you acknowledge there is evidence of a medical miracle, but since God only spoke to Barbara Cummiskey, we should ignore the medical evidence. What a weak, illogical argument.
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Well I've nothing against the guy personally just against his beliefs as he has against mine and that's just fine.
To his credit he does not go around calling people retards/ dummies / loons etc ,etc for disagreeing with him.
He also posts links that support things from his point of view, alll you ever do is call people names and you rarely debate and never post links to support your m9stly nonsensical contentions.
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That is a pretty questionable summary, since none of the two parts of it has been referenced by me at any point. I 1) do not "acknowledge there is evidence of a medical miracle, and 2) do not suggest that "we should ignore the medical evidence". The way you phrased the argument, indeed, makes it weak and illogical. I would suggest, however, that it is equally illogical to claim that I have made this argument when I demonstrably have not.
Could it be that, rather than trying to genuinely understand my argument and have to work on developing a proper response to it, you choose an easier path and continuously attribute indefensible statements to me that I do not subscribe to?
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Your basically saying the same as what I said except your being polite. He is nothing more than a lier and deceiver. And you know he just wont stop protecting all his stu pid unbelievable lies with his own sents less made up lies and deceit. Thes people will just never stop.
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Dr. Harold Adolph, her surgeon, called it 'a miracle'. And said "'this was completely unexpected. There is nothing I can explain on the basis of medicne." (Chicago Tribune Sept 26, 1983)
"At the present time, the patient has no findings of multiple sclerosis, and walks normally, speaks normally, and is very happy as is her family over the obvious answer to prayer and the good hand of God on her life." -Official medical record DuPaul Hospital signed by Dr Harold Adolph
Dr Donal Edwards, another one of her doctors, said "There is no medical test to explain what has happened." (Chicago Tribune quote)
It would seem your opinion is in direct conflict with Cummiskey's doctor's assessment.
Your claim that since no one but Cummiskey heard God's voice we can't know if her story is true. I would say the primary evidence of her miracle is in her medical records before and after her miracle. They are the undeniable evidence of a miracle. Let's say there was never a voice of God at all; isn't her case still a miracle.
The fact her friends, family, doctor's, pastor, and several journalists have all repeated the same account seems to suggest it has not changed and is credible. I don't know how ANY account could be more verifiable. Just how many doctor's verifying that she had a miracle do you need - there are at least 5 who have written about it that I am aware of and I believe there were up to 30 medical professionals she saw over her 17 year ordeal. It seems you have now moved from 'needing evidence' to clinging to false hope or a personal faith claim that there are no miracles.
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Next, "voice of God" was something you chose to present as a piece of evidence, and I pointed that Barbara's doctor's comment on it seems based solely on her words and his medical expertise does not at all contribute to its credibility. I asked you further on what basis you make the judgement on whether to take someone's words as expressions of factual truth or not; I asked you this question, at least, 5 times in slightly different variations, and have yet to see you address it.
Lastly, it does not seem sensible to me to reference someone's medical accreditation in support of their claim that a patient's recovery is a "miracle", since "miracle" is not a concept existing in the medical field. That is to say, any doctor claiming that a given event is miracle is not speaking as a doctor, but as a regular citizen with an opinion.
You are really making me work here to keep this conversation going somewhere, my friend - and I do not think I am succeeding. Some cooperation would be very welcome.
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You seem fixated on her claim she heard God's voice. Do you have any evidence to suggest she is lying? She immediately told her 2 friends in the room with her about hearing a voice tell her to get up. She responded to the voice she claims she heard and did what should have been impossible for someone in her advanced stages of MS - she got up and walked. In every account where she has told this story, that detail has been the same. Personally, if you remove that element of the story, her story is still a miracle. To me it seems like you are grasping at straws now. The medical miracle part of the story has been firmly established. You seem to want to dismiss those undeniable medical facts, supported by multiple medical records and doctors attesting to her miraculous recovery, because you can't personally confirm what God spoke to her. Seems like a weak argument to me.
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What a total utter blatant lie Absolutely none of her doctors ever said such a thing at all. Is there no end to your sick dishonesty.
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Another claim you have mistakenly attributed to me is that "I don't think doctor's should use that type of language". That is not what I said at all: I said that when a doctor does use that type of language, they do it not in their professional capacity, but as a regular citizen, and their credentials do not strengthen their claims.
I have not suggested that Barbara is lying either. I instead (now, at least, 6 times) asked what methodology you use to determine whether someone's words alone constitute factual claims or not - you refuse to address the question. Could it be that you do not have a good answer to it, answer demonstrating consistency in your reasoning?
And another attribute you erroneously attribute to me:
I am not sure why I "seem" to want to do that to you, for at no part in this discussion did I express such a desire or attempt to make this (indeed, weak) argument.
What's up, buddy? Why are you acting like this? Why are you talking to me as if I am a completely different person than I am?
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Dr. Harold Adolph, her surgeon, called it 'a miracle'. And said "'this was completely unexpected. There is nothing I can explain on the basis of medicne." (Chicago Tribune Sept 26, 1983)
"At the present time, the patient has no findings of multiple sclerosis, and walks normally, speaks normally, and is very happy as is her family over the obvious answer to prayer and the good hand of God on her life." -Official medical record DuPaul Hospital signed by Dr Harold Adolph
Dr Donal Edwards, another one of her doctors, said "There is no medical test to explain what has happened." (Chicago Tribune quote)
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From the Chicago Tribune, September 26, 1983 (I even highlighted the quotes for you);
Central DuPaul Hospital - Medical record for Barbara Cummiskey from Dr Harold P Adolph
Also see http://searchingdeeper.com/SearchingForMiracles.html#:~:text=The%20next%20day,in%20every%20way.
For @Barnadot - denial is not just a river in Egypt, but a state of mind.
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As they say, god works in mysterious ways... Sometimes involving a bit of theatrics, it would seem.
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Okay lets level up here because I can see that your getting so out of control with all that so called evidence its not even funny any more. All of your evidence is bogus because they are taken from bogus sites and made up. No genuine site posting genuine reports posts shoddy amateurish badly iphone copied news paper articles which are made up in the first place and written deliberately ambiguously. So all of your evidence is totally worthless made up crap 100% disproven end of story. So stop posting that rubbish over and over. Posting it ten times does not make it any more legit than posting it 1 time. It is total low grade rubbish and no body who thinks properly would even give a toss for that crap. So it simply goes back to the fact that there is no such thing as miracles and praying working and all the people involved in those scams are totally lying dis honest people who make money out of those who want to believe it. They including that selfish lieing Grimsboy bitsh are the lowest common denominators of our society.
Now settle down for a minute and just listen for once instead of jumping a round like a little kid who just wet his pants that are also full of ants. Just listen.
Okay. It has been found through many proper properly researched scientific tests by real experts that therr is a gene in the body nick named the God gene that gives some people a dis possession to look at things at face value and fill in gaps with super natural explanations. However much you want to dispute the science the fact is we know that this condition exists and that there will all ways be people who accept face value and explain any thing they dont know with airy fairy stuff. Im not saying its right or wrong because look at artists and musicians who create great art. They are like that. People who carefully analize and filter out fact from implying and lies and speculations make good scientists and accountants. Thats the way we are. I tend to be a bit of both myself.
But its all about recognizing your strengths and weaknesses. Yes I have a tendency to believe in magic tricks and may be I have that gene. But at least I know it and the right side of my brain says yeah very good but the guy is only fooling me and its good entertainment. And yes I have been suckered in to buying crap because I only looked at the face value that the guy conned me with. But in general the other side of me takes over and reasons the truth and realty of the situation.
Now what happens if I just let my gene completely influence everything I do say and think. Thats right Im going to believe in every scam and airy fairy thing that comes my way because I am attracted to it like a magnet and it looks all so utterly real and 100% true because that gene is releasing a heap of hormoans in my body which compounds the experience so that it seems so real that nothing is going to stop me from thinking that that is the absolute truth. But in realty of course Im believing a heap of crap and that those who I got it off know very well that I get suckered in very easy.
Weather its from making money from getting heaps of hits on doggy web sites or religious preachers getting control over others or con men taking money or bogus health prctitioners making heaps of money they all know that its so easy to suck the advantage off people who tend to be be gullible because they will tend to look at the face value only.
So thats what people are trying to tell you. Yes you come across as a lying deceitful nit but people are not going to tell you that to your face. And you are so rapped up in believing all that you think is right that that thought would not even dawn on you any way. So all I can say is and my advice is that you might want to balance your self out and stop that gene controlling you like a drug and start getting the right side of your brain kick in a bit.
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Sigh. The documentation is not made up, nor are the websites. The news stories are real. The evidence of prayer working and of miracles is documented and overwhelming. Your special pleading to pretend that the evidence is fake is just sad at this point.
The fact is there is an abundance of evidence that prayer works. 87 percent of people who pray claim they have had a prayer answered in the last year. Rueters reports that:
That's a lot of eyewitnesses that you want to pretend didn't see what they saw. There are over 1200 studies on prayer, with the majority of them showing that prayer works and that it has health benefits for the one who is prayed for. Further, there is documented evidence of miracles as I have shown.
You have engaged in a science of the gaps argument. You have essentially claimed that even though science has no medical explanation for the miracles of the blind seeing, the lame walking, or the dead rising, that I have shared, that we should believe that 'almighty science has an answer'. The problem with that desperate faith belief of yours, is that it is science which has claimed there is no medical explanation for the events I've described. If there were, then you could replicate them. But even though I challenged you to raise the dead, you FAILED to do so.
It is the mark of a bad debater that has to stoop to denying credible sources. I have provided written testimony from at least 3 doctors in the Barbara Cummiskey miracle where she was on her death bed, blind, with severe MS that make it impossible for her to walk, her lungs were barely functioning, and her intestines had stopped working. Yet, after people prayed for her, she got up out of bed on her own, got her eyesight back, her lungs worked fine, and her internal organs were now fine. That was verified by doctors within a short period of time. At least 5 of her doctor's have said it was a miracle with no medical explanation possible. Yet, because you are a bad debater, you want to pretend that evidence that I sited from books, newspaper articles, tv interviews, personal interviews, medical journals, and from hospital medical records is fake. It seems obvious that the only one faking claims here is you.
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Yes they are and as usual you know very well that they are because 3 of us have pointed out exactly which ones they are, like every one of them and we pointed out many times the evidence as to why. So you can keep up your innocent me and gas lighting crap and going a round in circles as much as you like and you can shunt friendly advice as much as you like which you do any way. But it is you who is pushing nutty beliefs and insulting and offending descent people who are geunuinely ill. And it is you who never comments one bit at all at the glearing evidence we have told you about. So thats why by default you are a total lier cheat and fraud and deceiver and I bet the only friends you have are gullible liers and cheats like your self going a round being affensive to descent people. But its your decision to carry on like that .
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I don’t know how you got that notion because Bible thumpers don’t and can’t make one single fact based argument. And atheists don’t need to make any claims at all because they don’t need to disprove anything that hasn’t even been proven in the first place.
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1) Several surveys show that people claim to have had a prayer answered in the past year and have either been healed or have witnessed a healing
2) Most peer reviewed studies on prayer show that prayer has positive outcomes for the one prayed for: (this includes systematic studies also):
3) There is strong evidence that modern miracles occur:
The reason that the case against prayer has been lacking is because the facts just aren't on their side. That doesn't mean they won't make stuff up. For example, one individual tried to argue that the reason we should ignore the miraculous healing of Barbara Cummisky is because her white cardiologist turns into a Black multi-millionaire Bishop of a church on the weekends. I kid you not. See
https://debateisland.com/discussion/comment/167366/#Comment_167366
https://debateisland.com/discussion/comment/167402/#Comment_167402
Maybe those who think prayer doesn't work should ask God to help them with their argument.
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***The reason why the 'bible thumper' has dominated this debate with overwhelming evidence and facts, is because the evidence and facts that prayer works is overwhelming***
Isn't the Christian god wonderful he answers the prayers of Americans according to your first link .....The Christian post ....ROFLMAO.....
Wonder why he ignored the payers of millions of Jews gassed by the Nazis , maybe you could ask him?
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National Day of Prayer Study: 85% of Americans Connect with a Higher Power; Increasing their Practice During and Since Covid Lockdowns
Or how about this Vox (leftist) article:
48 percent of Americans pray every day. Here's what they pray for.
Gee, you don't have a prayer of winning this debate. It would take a miracle for you to win.
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NICE SWERVE , HERE IS WHAT YOU' RE RUNNING FROM.....
Isn't the Christian god wonderful he answers the prayers of Americans according to your first link .....The Christian post ....ROFLMAO.....
Wonder why he ignored the payers of millions of Jews gassed by the Nazis , maybe you could ask him?
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You are making quite a jump in your arguments from "People say that X helps them" to "X helps people". How about all the people who swear by horoscopes, or a cup of raw apple cider vinegar per day, or a pill that is demonstrably a placebo - do you take their claims for facts without any questioning as well?
People tend to be confirmation bias machines. When someone prays daily and something great happens to them, they will be prone to assume that the prayer was the cause of that great happening - and when someone else who does not pray has the same thing happen to them, they will attribute it to luck or something else.
Virtually all of your arguments are based on self-serving testimonies and have no independent/impartial evidence supporting them. That is a very shaky ground to build one's world view on. I could find a lot of formerly religious atheists who will say that giving up religion was the single best decision of their lives, and make a similar argument to yours, but with the opposite conclusion - and where will we be then?
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Most of the evidence that I have focused on have been prayer studies that show prayer has resulted in health benefits for the one being prayed for.
From the JAMA study, https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamainternalmedicine/article-abstract/485161
and
The systematic prayer studies I mentioned looked a large number of prayer studies. That doesn't appear to be confirmation bias to me.
A SYSTEMATIC REVIEW OF THE QUALITY OF RESEARCH ON HANDS-ON AND DISTANCE HEALING: CLINICAL AND LABORATORY STUDIES,which examined the quality of studies of hands-on healing and distance healing that were published between 1955 and 2001. There were 90 identified studies of which 45 had been conducted in clinical settings and 45 in laboratory settings. they reported that 71% of the clinical studies and 62% of the laboratory studies reported positive outcomes; and that the overall internal validity for the studies on distance healing was 75% for the clinical investigations and 81% for the laboratory investigations. So the bulk of studies shows prayer works.
in a systematic review of distance prayer
I've quoted from experts in the field of prayer research. I cited the Stanford and Harvard lecturer, Marilyn Schiltz, who has done a summary of the studies on prayer:
andI have also shared at least 5 documented modern miracle accounts that have medical documentation supporting them. That doesn't seem like confirmation bias. I've provided medical records from Stanford, Harvard, and the Mayo Clinic, video, TV interviews, newspaper articles, and peer reviewed medical journals. In the case of the miracle of Barbara Comiskey who couldn't walk and was blind, at least 5 of her doctors, all with Mayo Clinic experience, claimed there was no medical explanation for her death bed miracle. With all that evidence, and all of those individuals attesting to the power of prayer, isn't it at least statistically more likely, that they are accurately relating the events, and that you have a confirmation bias against prayer?
Provide some evidence for your position about why I should write off overwhelming evidence of prayer working. Why should 100's of millions of people's observation that they have had a prayer answered in the past year be ignored? Why should we ignore 200 million Pentecostal and Charismatic people's assertion that they have either been healed or received a miracle, or witnessed one? Why should we ignore the majority of peer reviewed prayer studies that show that prayer has benefits for the one being prayed for? Why should we ignore peer reviewed evidence of miracles - such as being raised from the dead, the blind seeing, and the lame walking, especially when respected medical professionals have provided the medical evidence to affirm the claims?
Just what would it take to for you to overcome your confirmation bias?
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That is the rubber though: people's perceptions are seriously influenced by their expectations. You know how a person with low confidence and a person with high confidence can have exactly identical interaction with someone, and the former will swear that the person disliked them, while the latter will swear that the person liked them? That is one of the reasons why you absolutely cannot substitute formal scientific approach with personal testimonies and the like. History is full of examples of deep collective confusion - do you think that the fact that virtually every single person in North Korea believes that their Dear Leader has magic powers makes the hypothesis that he actually does more plausible?
To answer your question directly: I am not sure which is more likely, but I am quite sure that hundreds of millions of people can easily be mistaken and that the numbers do not correlate with the plausibility of the hypothesis. Whichever is more likely, the fact that hundreds of millions of people believe that they have witnessed a "miracle" adds zero credibility to the claim that "miracles" happen.
That praying is correlated with certain positive health effects, I know well - yet it has no bearing on the validity of the claim that praying involves communing with some extraneous intelligent entity. Just like the fact that meditating has certain health benefits does not imply that meditating activates your "chakras", or that "chakras" even exist.
For the "miracle accounts", we have already gone over them, and the supporting documentation there did nothing to support the claim regarding the divinity of the nature of the recovery (not to mention that he alleged "recoveries" had very shoddy evidence supporting them).
Furthermore, do you not find it strange that 200 million people allegedly have received a miracle, yet only 5 miracles have been, as you claim, documented? 5 out of 200 million? Is there any other phenomenon in the Universe in which the rate of documentation is so infinitesimally small? If miracles were as commonplace as these people claim, we would have thousands of studies of cohorts of hundreds of subjects documenting "miracles" in great detail. Where are they?
You can mention "confirmation bias" as many times as you like, but, just like with the frequency of the claims of having witnessed a "miracle", increase in the number does nothing to increase the validity of the claim. I am a very open-minded person, humble with my perception of my knowledge and understanding of the world, and I absolutely love it when someone makes an argument that challenges my most fundamental beliefs and that I cannot immediately find an error in. If someone made a solid argument in favor of existence of "miracles", I would absolutely seriously consider it: I have no preference one way or the other, and, in fact, this world could use a little more magic.
In this case, however, my confirmation bias only makes me favor good argumentation and disfavor bad argumentation. I will go further and say that I am not nearly as interested in the conclusion of an argument, as I am in its structure. If the argument is sound and its conclusion is something I disagree with, I will accept it and think about revising my conclusion; if it is unsound, then, regardless of what the conclusion is, I will reject it and explain why. Which of the two cases is at play here, I am not a good judge of, yet I do think that my approach is sound, however flawed its practical application is.
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Most in fact all of the evidence you have given is completely bogus and fake as many here have properly pointed out to you. Yes or No?
You are a lying malicious fool who is hell bent on offending innocent genuinely ill people which you are still doing with your persistent lying.
Have you retracted your false and offensive claim about babies heads being chopped off as you said you would. No you haven't have you because you are a spine less lier.
Have you asked forgiveness as you said
Have you apologized and asked forgiveness to the people I work with who you maliciously and falsely accused of being illegal immigrants and ex convicts. No you haven't.
Have you apologized to me for falsely claiming that I said my colleagues are illegal immigrants and ex prisoners. No you haven't.
Are you actually going to stop your pathological lying even about your own written promises. Well thats up to you. You can change if you want but I think decsent honest people can expect to be offended and insulted by your miserable diss honest preaching.
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It appears you are adding some special pleading to your confirmation bias. In the 5 examples of documented miracles I have provided, 2 people came back to life immediately after being prayed for, 1 instantly opened her blind eyes to see at the conclusion of a prayer, 1 was instantly healed after his dad prayed for him, and 1 blind woman on her death bed who had not walked in 7 1/2 years got up and danced in the rain immediately after 400 prayer requests had been delivered to her.
You said there was shoddy evidence supporting the miracles. Huh. 2 of the cases appeared in peer reviewed journals:
Case report of instantaneous resolution of juvenile macular degeneration blindness after proximal intercessory prayer
Case Report of gastroparesis healing: 16 years of a chronic syndrome resolved after proximal intercessory prayer
https://seangeorge.com.au/my-story/my-story/
And the documented evidence here:
https://seangeorge.com.au/my-story/medical-details/
And if you like detailed doctor's notes, you should see the story of Jeff Markin who had a massive heart attack and was declared dead. Dr. Chauncey Crandall, a Yale educated cardiologist, had already filled out the paper work declaring the man dead, when he felt impressed to stop and pray for the man and then gave the guy one more shock against the wishes of the staff in the room. Markin came back to life with no brain damage though his limbs had already shown signs of no oxygen. This impacted the Dr so much that he recorded the story, with all the medical details you could ever want in a book:
Raising the Dead: A Doctor Encounters the Miraculous
There are over 50 pages of medical records and notes alone, he even shows the death certificate.How are 50 pages of medical records presented by a Yale Cardiologist, considered one of he best in his field, 'shoddy'? Dr Sean George provided screen shots of his ECGs, his defibrillator log, and several test results. He provides a timeline. I'm unsure what more he could give you that would convince you. But, I suspect that's the real issue. I don't think any amount of evidence will convince you
Did you really think there are only 5 examples of miracles? Just because I've provided documentation for 5 miracles doesn't mean there aren't many more. For example, one of the 5 doctors who wrote about Barbara Cummiskey's miracle, Scott Kolbaba, also wrote about 12 other miracles that occurred at the Mayo Clinic that he was familiar with:
Scott Kolbaba, Physician's Untold Stories: Miraculous Experiences Doctors are Hesitant to Share with their Patients, or Anyone! (North Charleston, SC: CreateSpace, 2016)
I've quoted from the book Miracles Today, by Craig Keener about Barbara Cummiskey's healing. The book covers her miracle in the preface. That book documents at least 25 different miracles. His 2 volume work on miracles (over 1000 pages) documents hundreds more.
There are at least 70 documented miracles at the Lourdes location alone. There are thousands of known modern miracle examples, not just the 5 I have mentioned in this discussion. In reality, just 1 miracle would prove that there is a God and that he intervenes in human affairs, making prayer something that we should do.
You have dismissed, out of hand, the survey results that reflect hundreds of millions of people. You claimed they all have confirmation bias without a shred of evidence to back up your claim. At least Dee provided a picture of Barbara Cummiskey's doctor whom he claimed turned into a wealthy Black bishop on the weekends. He was hilariously wrong, but at least he tried. It just seems to me, that it is far more likely that the confirmation bias is yours.
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ARGUMENT TOPIC : JUST LYING CAUGHT LYING AGAIN., ALL BECAUSE HE STILL CANNOT ANSWER WHY HIS GOD ANSWERS ONLY THE PRAYERS OF AMERICANS BUT NOT JEWS GETTING PUSHED INTO GAS CHAMBERS BY NAZIS.......A
At least Dee provided a picture of Barbara Cummiskey's doctor whom he claimed turned into a wealthy Black bishop on the weekends. He was hilariously wrong, but at least he tried. It just seems to me, that it is far more likely that the confirmation bias is yours.
YOU DIDNT KNOW EVEN CON WOMAN CUMMISKYS DOCTORS NAME YOUR SUPPORTING EVIDENCE YOU BLURRED SO IT WAS VIRTUALLY UNREADABLE, THEN YOU CLAIMED THE DOCTOR DIDNT EXIST JUST LIKD YOUR GOD, THEN YOU COULDN'T DECIDE WHETHER HE WAS BLACK OR WHITE OR MALE OR FEMALE.
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It might be best said as the proof of the powers of preyer.
"You can't always get what you want but if you try sometime, you'll find you get what you need.
", Mick Jagger Keith Richards, 1969, Album: Let it bleed.
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Regarding Cummiskey's doctor's name, I apologize, I am confusing miracles. I meant the optometrist for Marolyn Ford Snyder, yet another miracle I've mentioned. She got her eyesight back miraculously.
I will remind you of my response to your claim that this doctor should not be trusted because he was a rich Black Bishop - see https://debateisland.com/discussion/comment/167451/#Comment_167451
I loved how you then went on to say that the award winning doctor was a con man because you found a bad review for him on yelp. I love you man. Keep it up. LOL. Here is our exchange:
.
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I don't claim to know the mind of God, or why He answers some prayers, but not others.
You've actually claimed you do by citing unproven ridiculous miracle claims.
Now, if you believe that there is such a thing as objective evil, such as the Holocaust, then that is really evidence that God exists.
If objective evil exists, then objective good must also exist. And the only place OBJECTIVE good could come from would be an objective lawgive
Nonsense that means moral laws are arbitrary and based on his personal whims , so if god says slaughter is right it is so because he says it.
r. Objective good can't come from individuals or groups, because what may be good to you, would not be good to a psychopath
Objective good can't come from god , because what may be good to god would not be good to a morally good person.
. One group of people, like the Nazi's in 1940 Germany, may believe that it is good to kill Jews, while other groups may not
The Christian god approves of slavery and his " christian" American followers agreed also actually segregating blacks up to the 1960's
Imagine that a country that identifies as majority Christian and people like you approve of treating blacks like dogs because you're ...."christians" LOL
. So, your argument, though you didn't mean it to, actually suggests that there is a God.
If you think that you need lessons in basic comprehension, you think a god who could intervene but doesn't instead he watches women and children get gassed to death and you think that a morally good decision by god .....WOW! Demonstrates clearly anything god says is morally correct you agree like his non intervention during the Holocaust you think a morally good decision ....,man oh man .
You haven't proved that God doesn't answer prayer, you have only proved that people do evil things, and that objective evil exists - which actually proves God's existence
You claim you have proved the reverse because he answers middle class Americans prayers yet refuses to answer the prayers of millions of Jews you have only proved god doesn't exist .
. Thank you for your contribution to this discussion
You're most welcome
No she didn't she claimed she did and was backed up by assorted Christian quacks.
WOW ! i knew you were racist this proves if by you claiming i made a racist comment on the man , you're a compulsive i said he couldn't be trusted because he's a charlatan, so your attempt to label me with what you are fails.
how you then went on to say that the award winning doctor was a con man because you found a bad review for him on yelp. I love you man. Keep it up. LOL. Here is our exchange:
More lies I posted up evidence from people the con man duped , he's a money mad egotist who is also insane, when his son was dying he went to faith healers to try and save him when this failed he tried to ressurct his son but understandably your non existing god ignored him.
I must admit you're comedy gold man. Thanks for your stand up act laughs all the way.
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My friend, you do not get to quote a line from a long and thought out comment, then zoom in on a small addition in the parentheses, and then drill on that. Please respond comprehensively to my comment.
I will indulge you here though. The two papers you cited are written by the same three authors, published in highly irreputable journals, and the text in them (which I did read as a courtesy to you) makes no assertions about the causal relation between prayer and the described events - furthermore, the data the studies reference is not available.
As for "coming back from the dead", in that context it is not a miracle, but a fairly well known (although poorly explained) phenomenon that occurs with some individuals. I am not aware of any data that makes a connection between the frequency of such events and prayer, but you are welcome to supply it.
First, I was asking about actual documented scientific evidence, not the "I met a guy who..." evidence, which is what those books contain. Second, no, a proof that a miracle (as in an event that appears inexplainable scientifically) has taken place would only suggest that our understanding of the Universe is vastly incomplete. It would not at all suggest that "god" exists and that the miracle is a result of divine intervention. Lastly, I made a much bigger claim than the one you are attributing to me: I said that everyone is a subject to confirmation bias. Which is why what people believe in and how often they believe in it has absolutely no bearing on what is true and what is not.
Once again, I am much more interested in quality of arguments than in conclusions. If there is god that responds to prayer, I would like to know it, and if praying consistently generates "miracles", it would be a curious phenomenon to explore. But "it would be nice if" is not the same as "it is", and to me what "is" is more interesting than what "should be". Whatever confirmation bias I may have, I completely remove when analyzing factual arguments - working in science forces you to get a habit of doing that. This means that when someone makes a claim, I assume a role of an ignorant stranger who knows nothing about the subject and genuinely wants to examine various lines of reasoning.
The line of reasoning you are proposing here in favor of god's existence and miracles is fairly weak, in my estimation, and I have seen much stronger religious arguments, some of which I did not have a response to at the time I heard it... Yours are not like that, unfortunately.
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I agree to a point however you are using God as a metaphore for religion miracles can exist just as GOD exists a meracle is a self-evdent truth. GOD as a Self-evident truth is a order of nature just as miracles is not one type of event dictated by truth. Yet there can be one miracle of one kind when the event is described in a precise way. It is through preyer a miracle may be decribes in a precise way that is the focus of argument. A meracle in medical terminology is nothing more the a event that is not fully understood but has turn out to be positive in the healing process. Medicine is a practice as is law the trick used by Dee is that he practices criminal law by calling it a freedom of speech. The hard part of any debate is not to allow person to bait you with such a guidline for it removes the debate away from United State Constitutional right into human rights.
Nonsense that means moral laws are arbitrary and based on his personal whims, so if God says slaughter is right it is so because he says it. Here Dee is showing he is practicing criminal law while representing himself outside the constraints of a Court room. He is simple just sticking to a democratically popular principle as a cover to the practice taking place. All Criminal law is moral law as well as all United States Constitutional law is all moral law, as one form of law is describing crime the other is described as right. They are principles that sit opposite sides on a scale of facts. When we go before an American court we ask if crime takes place in criminal or civil proceedings, or was ask if something which is right took place as United States Constitutional right. When something is done perfectly right it cannot be a crime under all conditions in opposition to if a crime takes place perfectly we the people are simple found not guilty.
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I will count you as my amigo also. And I do like your debating style, even if I don't always agree with you. I am assuming you are talking about 'shoddy' research. I didn't see that as something ancillary. To me, the fact that you can find so many doctors from Yale, Harvard, Stanford, and the Mayo Clinic verifying that medical science can not explain the events in question, yet they did happen, and taking their time to provide the medical documentation, and risking their credibility to do it, is definitely a supporting piece of evidence. Would you not agree?
I don't think that because I picked 2 papers written by the same 3 authors invalidates the content. Does it sound rational to you to claim that if you come across 2 studies by researchers in that specific field that both studies must be invalid? That's a weak argument.
Claiming that because the 2 case studies come from Explore (Elsevier) therefore they are not respected, is somewhat dishonest in my opinion. Remember these are case studies on miracles and prayer. These are alternative medicine topics. I wouldn't expect to see them in the New England Journal of Medicine. Not because the information is not true, but because it is not replicable. To me, the issue is do the case studies present the evidence in an accurate manner. I believe they do.
So don't believe the case studies make any assertions about the causal relation between prayer and the miracles? Huh. Let's look at one of them then.
Case report of instantaneous resolution of juvenile macular degeneration blindness after proximal intercessory prayer
Definitely not making any association in that title between a miracle and intercessory prayer at all (that's sarcasm, in case you couldn't tell).From the abstract:
From the introduction:
From Therapeutic Focus and Assessment:
It seems to me that you are in some ways attacking the case study because it is not a study of Proximity Intercessory Prayer rather than just a case study of what happened. It seems like you want to argue 'yeah, well a miracle did happen. But its not connected to prayer.' But prayer happens immediately before the event and seems significant to the people who witnessed the event. If I learned that a miracle happened right after prayer occurred, I am not sure I could make the leap of faith that you have and claim it is disconnected with that act.
I provided evidence from eyewitnesses. For instance in the case of Barbara Cummiskey, I have provided tv interviews with her, quotes from her doctors, cited quotes by her physicians in the Chicago Tribune, and a medical document with a signed note from her main doctor. That doesn't seem to be a 'I met a guy who...' scenario.
When you say that miracle would only suggest that our understanding of the universe is vastly incomplete, you are making a 'science of the gaps' argument. If the situation was reversed and I made a God of the gaps kind of argument you would call me on it. It is not reasonable to on the one hand say 'all knowing science explains what happened' and then when I ask 'well, what's the answer then?' and you have to respond 'there isn't any scientific or medical explanation for what happened yet.' You are begging the question. Science has claimed it can't explain what happened. It does not logically follow that it will be able to do so in the future. Your claim that it will, is a faith claim with no evidence in these specific cases to support that basis. If you think I'm mistaken, I'll gladly quote Barbara Cummiskey's doctor's to you. There is no ambiguity in their claims. Remember they had sent her home to die.
At some point we should really define what we mean by miracles. I go with the original Hebrew and Koine Greek meanings of the word, also one of the definitions given by Webster - "an extraordinary event manifesting divine intervention in human affairs." This definition does not claim that a miracle is physically or naturally impossible, only extraordinary and involves God's intervention. Miracles by definition are 'extraordinary' events. By definition, miracles are not consistent happenings that one can plan or program.
There are other definitions used for miracles. Catholics use a much stricter definition in their verification process. There definition would exclude any natural explanation. I'm happy to go into further if we venture into any Catholic confirmed miracles, like at Lourdes. Hume essentially argued that miracles are logically impossible. A miracle to him was a violation of natural law, and sense all things are observed in the natural universe, there can be no miracles. By his very definition, he claimed there was no evidence of them. That's a very deceptive tactic. It makes its conclusion before investigation. Is it possible for a being beyond space-time to operate within His creation and do something that is beyond natural explanation? If you say no, without an investigation, you aren't really interested in an honest answer.
This is great. The obvious question from me is since you have seen the evidence for Barbara Cummiskey's miracle where she had been unable to walk and blind, what's the medical explanation for what happened to her then? Whose voice do you think she heard that happened to tell her to get up right at the moment her eyesight came back, her collapsed lung filled up, her atrophied legs started working, and her intestines started working again? This should be an interesting response. Looking forward to hearing your explanation.
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